Hydrogen vs. Battery

[Doug_G]

“It’s all the hype over battery electric that drives me mad. If nature is half as clever as it’s supposed to be, how is it that the sun uses hydrogen as an energy carrier and not a battery?”

What a lame excuse! Is a bit the same as stating!
Why should planes use engines. Birds just flap their wing, why don't do planes!!!!

No, it's far, far worse than that. The sun is powered by hydrogen fusion. Any chemical energy source, hydrogen included, is incredibly feeble in comparison. It's like he's claiming his cars are nuclear powered, when they obviously are not.

Either that guy thinks we're all stupid, or he is.

 

[daniel]

As Honda engineer Thomas Brachmann says: “It’s all the hype over battery electric that drives me mad. If nature is half as clever as it’s supposed to be, how is it that the sun uses hydrogen as an energy carrier and not a battery?”

When we use H2, we use it as a carrier, not a source. When the sun uses hydrogen, it uses it as an energy source, not a carrier. This is because we take H2O from nature, put energy into it to get H2, and then extract the stored energy by letting it go back to H2O. But the sun takes raw H that it gathered from space and turns it into He to release energy, which it then sends out wirelessly, and we can capture it if we like.

Two different systems. If Thomas Brachmann was being quoted correctly (big IF, given the general quality of reporting) then he's an idiot.

 

[doug]

No, it's far, far worse than that. The sun is powered by hydrogen fusion. Any chemical energy source, hydrogen included, is incredibly feeble in comparison. It's like he's claiming his cars are nuclear powered, when they obviously are not.

Either that guy thinks we're all stupid, or he is.

Heh... should tell him it works both ways. If he's driving around in a car powered by hydrogen like in the sun, then he'd better not get into an accident since he's driving around with a H-bomb.

 

[ElSupreme]

Heh... should tell him it works both ways. If he's driving around in a car powered by hydrogen like in the sun, then he'd better not get into an accident since he's driving around with a H-bomb.

AWESOME IDEA! Just think of the awesome movie explosions!

 

[stopcrazypp]

Either that guy thinks we're all stupid, or he is.

I think most hydrogen promoters are either idiots or think we are idiots. The first thing that gets trotted out is that hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe (irrelevant since it's not harvest-able on earth). The second thing is that we can make hydrogen from "water" (glossing over the fact that the energy comes from the electricity not the water). I think most people bought those arguments initially, but over these last couple of years, I've seen a lot more people skeptical of such claims.

The only valid argument (which I have seen Honda make) is that hydrogen made from natural gas in general is about as clean as an EV running on electricity from an average natural gas power plant.

 

[Doug_G]

The only valid argument (which I have seen Honda make) is that hydrogen made from natural gas in general is about as clean as an EV running on electricity from an average natural gas power plant.

Yeah, but what I can't figure out is the advantage compared to running the car from natural gas...

 

[Citizen-T]

Yeah, but what I can't figure out is the advantage compared to running the car from natural gas...

Same as EVs running on Nat Gas electricity. Large scale Nat Gas power plants would be much more efficient than tens of millions of tiny little nat gas engines running around.

 

[dpeilow]

Any of you guys been to comment there because here is preaching to the choir...

 

[daniel]

It boggles the mind that people really believe that fuel-cell cars will run on free energy because "there's abundant hydrogen in water." I have encountered people who believe this! I blame lack of science education, which in turn is partly due to the attacks on science by religious fundamentalists.

It also boggles the mind that people buy into scams like "water for gas" and the Bedini engine. Meanwhile, solar energy is real, and those same people discount it.

It boggles the mind that we are smart enough to invent nuclear weapons, and stupid enough to use them. We inherited paradise, and we are turning it into a garbage dump just as fast as we possibly can. Drill, baby, drill, because if we don't, there might still be a little bit left for the next generation.

I encountered this quote on another chat board. I don't know its origin:

"So-called “global warming” is just a secret ploy by wacko tree-huggers to make America energy independent, clean our air and water, improve the fuel efficiency of our vehicles, kick-start 21st-century industries, and make our cities safer and more livable. Don’t let them get away with it!"

 

[doug]

"So-called “global warming” is just a secret ploy by wacko tree-huggers to make America energy independent, clean our air and water, improve the fuel efficiency of our vehicles, kick-start 21st-century industries, and make our cities safer and more livable. Don’t let them get away with it!"

Reminds me of this classic:

 

[jcstp]

Hydrogen car to race at Le Mans in 2013 | Racecar Engineering

The car is built around a purpose designed tub from Le Mans specialists Welter Racing, and uses a hydrogen fuel cell to generate electricity to drive twin electric motors. It weighs in at just under 1300kg in its current trim though the engineering team hope to bring that down to 1,000kg, the powertrain produces around 550bhp and a huge 2,400nm torque.

 

[doug]

Hydrogen car to race at Le Mans in 2013 | Racecar Engineering

550 hp is 440 kW. I'm doubting their fuel cell is that powerful. The real question is what is the power and energy capacity of their battery buffer.

 

[stopcrazypp]

550 hp is 440 kW. I'm doubting their fuel cell is that powerful. The real question is what is the power and energy capacity of their battery buffer.

They started with a 100kW fuel cell in 2011. They are working on a 340kW fuel cell for the actual car:
http://www.greengt.com/en/greengt-h2.php
They don't list a battery buffer at all.

 

[VolkerP]

Either the fuel cell can quickly adapt its power production to the varying demands of racing situations, or they have a battery buffer. Only the latter allows for regenerative braking.

 

[chimpanzee]

"Every absurdity has a champion to defend it; for error is always talkative. "

 

[SByer]

http://www.mercurynews.com/san-mate...rned-about-catastrophic-hydrogen-explosion-at

Hard enough to put in infrastructure that is generally safe - since hydrogen isn't so safe, I think we'll see more stories like this.

 

[JRP3]

"That was a dynamite site," Napier said. "It's hard to find one as good as that."

LOL :biggrin: Poor choice of wording.

 

[W.Petefish]

LOL :biggrin: Poor choice of wording.

Or good choice for comic relief. :biggrin:

 

[doug]

http://www.mercurynews.com/san-mate...rned-about-catastrophic-hydrogen-explosion-at

Hard enough to put in infrastructure that is generally safe - since hydrogen isn't so safe, I think we'll see more stories like this.

It can be safe, but not worth the trouble. Here's another choice quote.

"I think that like every other fuel, we have learned to handle it safely," said Chris White, spokeswoman for the California Fuel Cell Partnership. "You don't read about gas stations exploding every other day either."

Heh... though you do read about them often enough. Gas stations are dangerous!!

 

[daniel]

"Every absurdity has a champion to defend it; ... "

So true!

http://www.mercurynews.com/san-mate...rned-about-catastrophic-hydrogen-explosion-at

Hard enough to put in infrastructure that is generally safe - since hydrogen isn't so safe, I think we'll see more stories like this.

Meanwhile gasoline kills so many people that it doesn't even make the national news. There are many, many reasons why fuel cells are a bad idea, including, but not limited to the short life of fuel cells, the inefficiency of H2 production, and the fact that it's cheaper to burn H2 in an ICE than in a million-dollar fuel cell. But as far as safety, I'm inclined to think that H2 is probably safer than gasoline. It requires just the right fuel:air mixture to burn, and when it leaks it goes up and away, unlike gasoline, which sits on the ground and burns until it's gone, or soaks into your clothing and burns you to a crisp.