Hydrogen vs. Battery

[DuncanWatson]

You are still focusing on cost.

I am using cost as shorthand for energy efficiency as well as manufacturing cost. Hydrogen is not likely to be a feasible fuel in our environment unless we are wrong about some of the science.

 

[jerry33]

Hydrogen is a storage medium, just like a battery. The problem is that it's far more energy intensive to create the hydrogen than it is to charge a battery (This is the reuse bit that Elon always brings up in Space X). Hydrogen will be feasible when we have fusion reactors and not until then. It's also not very dense so it has to be stored under very high pressures. I'm not all that comfortable with a 6000+ psi bomb in the back.

 

[jcstp]

Hydrogen is a storage medium, just like a battery. The problem is that it's far more energy intensive to create the hydrogen than it is to charge a battery (This is the reuse bit that Elon always brings up in Space X). Hydrogen will be feasible when we have fusion reactors and not until then. It's also not very dense so it has to be stored under very high pressures. I'm not all that comfortable with a 6000+ psi bomb in the back.

please do not smoke near your "bomb" ;-)

 

[dpeilow]

The only real advantages of hydrogen I can think of (quick refueling, storage of the medium in off-board tanks) also apply to flow batteries. Given that the latter have much better round trip efficiency, why would you bother with hydrogen?

Improved Redox Flow Batteries For Electric Cars

 

[jerry33]

The only real advantages of hydrogen I can think of (quick refueling, storage of the medium in off-board tanks) also apply to flow batteries. Given that the latter have much better round trip efficiency, why would you bother with hydrogen?

Because the person doling out government funding doesn't understand the difference between fuel and storage medium. Give me a couple of billion, and I'll work on hydrogen too :biggrin:

 

[dpeilow]

Because the person doling out government funding doesn't understand the difference between fuel and storage medium. Give me a couple of billion, and I'll work on hydrogen too :biggrin:

OK, why don't all the manufacturers with their snouts in the trough just lobby for money to develop flow batteries instead, and actually do something useful with the money?

 

[jerry33]

OK, why don't all the manufacturers with their snouts in the trough just lobby for money to develop flow batteries instead, and actually do something useful with the money?

Gee, if they did that, who would buy an ICE car?

 

[neroden]

Gee, if they did that, who would buy an ICE car?

Indeed. Hydrogen has consistently been promoted by oil company types as a *distraction* from electric cars.

There may well be a better storage medium than batteries -- but it won't be something you burn. It'll be something electromagnetic.

 

[dpeilow]

Not talking about oil companies though...

 

[Dan5]

Indeed. Hydrogen has consistently been promoted by oil company types as a *distraction* from electric cars.

I agree with the statement completely. Just look at the typical feedstock to make hydrogen. The most typical hydrogen is made by steam reforming/water gas reaction so the oil companies have a vested interest in pushing the technology. Other ways to make it would be electrolysis, but at that point, it's not efficient and not as trivial as hooking up a garden hose to a high voltage current.
If you use "pure water", it's not very efficient at hydrolysis. If you add a strong base as an electrolyte, it becomes more efficient, but you have to have someone maintain the electrolyte concentration.

All and all hydrogen is not particularly green or energy efficient. A good example is the Mercedes F-Cell, it takes 2.125 KW/mile (If you do the chemistry and math with the following info: H2 has 286 KJ/Mole, F-cell goes 250 miles and holds 8.2 lbs of hydrogen), most EVs are around 0.25 Kw/mile, a gasoline car, assuming 20 mpg gets 1.83 Kw/mile. The F-Cell is worse than a 20 mpg gas car

 

[doug]

Hyundai will make 'limited' number of fuel-cell vehicles this year, 'thousands' by 2014 - ABG

The company is "willing to provide a sufficient number of FCEVs where hydrogen infrastructure is available during 2012-2015," Hyundai said in a statement sent to AutoblogGreen. "All we can say is that we have said we will make a limited supply in 2012, and anticipate thousands will be available globally through 2014."

Torque News reported that Hyundai would make as many as 1,000 FCEVs this year, and that the car would be priced at $88,550 before incentives and any tax credits. Hyundai is looking to cut that price to $50,000 by 2015, Torque News said.

 

[richkae]

That $88550 car will be gutless and have crappy storage space due to the giant hydrogen tank.
It will not have any operating cost advantage over an EV.
The only thing in its favor will be quick refueling - IF a hydrogen station is near you.

I really think that when they come to market they will make EVs look even better.

 

[dpeilow]

Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles and the Obama administration. - Slate Magazine

The lack of fueling stations is a major obstacle to the rollout of hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles. A mature fleet will require 11,000 stations coast to coast at a cost of $20 billion to $25 billion, according to General Motors. Unless forced by Washington, oil companies, which generally do not produce hydrogen, have no motivation to add rival hydrogen fueling to their gasoline stations. So the industry’s calculus is that by and large hydrogen must be sold at new, dedicated fueling stations.

 

[doug]

ABG article on the above story: Obama administration rethinking support for hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles

Somewhat interesting comments, though nothing we haven't heard before.

 

[jcstp]

RIP Hydrogen Highway? California Takes Back Grant Dollars

 

[daniel]

The only real advantages of hydrogen I can think of (quick refueling, storage of the medium in off-board tanks) also apply to flow batteries. Given that the latter have much better round trip efficiency, why would you bother with hydrogen?

Improved Redox Flow Batteries For Electric Cars

That's an old article (2009) but apparently research continues. The obstacles appear to be low power density, and the fact that recharging infrastructure must be built from scratch. Doable, but will take time. In the very long term, it could be the technology that replaces the ICE. And if the flow batteries can also be charged conventionally from an outlet, then there could be a smooth transition from the present charging infrastructure to a true rapid refill infrastructure.

Hydrogen has consistently been promoted by oil company types as a *distraction* from electric cars.

Agree 100%!!!

 

[dpeilow]

Hydrogen: Can the UK ever catch up? - Telegraph

 

[jcstp]

Hydrogen: Can the UK ever catch up? - Telegraph

As Honda engineer Thomas Brachmann says: “It’s all the hype over battery electric that drives me mad. If nature is half as clever as it’s supposed to be, how is it that the sun uses hydrogen as an energy carrier and not a battery?”

What a lame excuse! Is a bit the same as stating!
Why should planes use engines. Birds just flap their wing, why don't do planes!!!!

 

[ElSupreme]

As Honda engineer Thomas Brachmann says: “It’s all the hype over battery electric that drives me mad. If nature is half as clever as it’s supposed to be, how is it that the sun uses hydrogen as an energy carrier and not a battery?”

What a lame excuse! Is a bit the same as stating!
Why should planes use engines. Birds just flap their wing, why don't do planes!!!!

Well if I had a Mr. Fusion on my car I would gladly scrap storing energy in a battery, and would switch to Hydrogen (well maybe if it was stored as water and electrolysized as needed so I wouldn't have a lot of the explosive gas on board).

 

[JRP3]

If that's the caliber of engineers Honda is using they are in trouble.