JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I haven't seen any evidence that a FCV or hybrid FCV could be built for less than the 85kwh Model S. If you want a carbon neutral range extender use a diesel and run biodiesel.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Hydrogen vs. Battery
- Thread starter siry
- Start date
The guy makes the standard hydrogen advocate misleading arguments. The main one being that whenever efficiency comes up they compare BEV with HFCV when natural gas is the fuel source. This is the only instance where the efficiency between the two is about even, and as to which wins is so sensitive to the minor details of the assumptions made, that it's basically a wash. Of course they go on to talk about hydrogen being a carbon neutral fuel and the energy coming from renewables, etc. At which point BEVs are three to four times more efficient than HFCVs, but that never gets a mention.
This idea does come up pretty often, and the presentation implied it, but I think it's a red herring. If in fact 95% of your driving is from charging the battery, why would you choose a fuel that requires expensive technology and has a virtually non-existent infrastructure for that last 5%? If it is that rare and perhaps an emergency event that you need that quick fuel/charge, you want to use an existing infrastructure that is ubiquitous. So why not just use gasoline? Gas stations aren't going away any time soon.
I've said before that HFCVs suffer from a chicken-and-egg problem that BEVs don't really have. Obviously for a car to be practical, there has to an infrastructure in place to refuel/charge. In the presentation the hydrogen guy talked about rolling out the cars and the infrastructure at the same time. Sounds pretty hard to me and neither the fueling industry nor the automakers are really willing to take the risk on the first move. For BEVs, people that can afford the vehicles and can charge at home can go ahead and purchase. That puts EVs on the road and creates demand for a an at work and public charging infrastructure. As the charging infrastructure comes in place, it becomes more practical for those who don't have garages. And of course EVs have the bridge technology of the PHEV to leverage the existing liquid fueling infrastructure. Gasoline is your backup. I find it ironic that hydrogen advocates are now floating the idea of a type of plug-in hybrid as their own bridge technology, where they have to leverage the existing charging infrastructure.
Last edited by a moderator:
AndreN
Member
Another thing fuel cell proponents won't mention is the relatively low efficiency of the fuel cell itself. I used to be pro-fuel cell over a decade ago until I found that the maximum efficiency is around 60%. I'd assumed it was closer to 90% but it's not. See http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/fct_h2_fuelcell_factsheet.pdf.
You will notice in that presentation he shows a chart with BEVs having 200km range - in 2050! Yeah.
If he is using natural gas reformation as the source for the efficiency, that's extremely disingenuous for a company making electrolysers...
By the way, this Update on Hydrogen Cost Structure | ITM Power gives some interesting data points:
So if it can generate 100 kg of H2 per day, that's only enough to fill 24 Honda FCX Clarities - for a unit that is the size of a semi-trailer and costs £713,000 (around a million dollars).
They state right here that it takes 60 kWh/kg to make hydrogen. The FCX Clarity tank is 4.1 kg for an EPA range of 240 miles, so that's 246 kWh for a full "charge" or 1025 Wh/mile. What a joke.
At £6.23/kg, that's £25 for a full tank to go 240 miles. This is the underlying reason for the "energy" industry's strategy - to keep people paying high prices for petrol so they think hydrogen is good value.
Heck, even the annual service price for this thing is more than a DC rapid charger costs to install.
Here is the tweet from which this conversation starts. Feel free to chip in: https://twitter.com/Eco_Rally/status/242402918035226624
If he is using natural gas reformation as the source for the efficiency, that's extremely disingenuous for a company making electrolysers...
By the way, this Update on Hydrogen Cost Structure | ITM Power gives some interesting data points:
| Generation capacity: | 100kg/24hr |
| Sale price: | £713,243 |
| Amortisation period: | 10 years |
| Electricity price: | 3.5p/kWhr |
| Water price: | 0.13p/litre |
| System efficiency: | 60kWhr/kg |
| Annual Service: | £35,662 (5% of sale price) |
They state right here that it takes 60 kWh/kg to make hydrogen. The FCX Clarity tank is 4.1 kg for an EPA range of 240 miles, so that's 246 kWh for a full "charge" or 1025 Wh/mile. What a joke.
At £6.23/kg, that's £25 for a full tank to go 240 miles. This is the underlying reason for the "energy" industry's strategy - to keep people paying high prices for petrol so they think hydrogen is good value.
Heck, even the annual service price for this thing is more than a DC rapid charger costs to install.
Here is the tweet from which this conversation starts. Feel free to chip in: https://twitter.com/Eco_Rally/status/242402918035226624
Great data. Note that the 3.5p/kWh rate is not a fully loaded cost -- that can't include transmission or distribution service, and it doesn't even cover the capital cost of the power plant. A 10p/kWh rate is closer to what the full charge would need to be at scale, or nearly 3x the claimed cost.
Yup. compare here: http://www.drehstromnetz.de/karten/DSL_110403.gif
Reminds me of a proverb from cold war times: A tactical nuclear weapon is one that makes impact in Germany. :tongue:
New Energy Department Report Shows Strong Growth in the Fuel Cell Market in 2011
September 6, 2012
The Energy Department today released a new report showing significant growth for the fuel cell industry in 2011 and forecasting continued growth through 2012. The 2011 Fuel Cell Technologies Market Report finds that commercial markets for fuel cell technologies expanded significantly over the last year, especially in the materials handling industry. At the end of 2011, more than 3,000 fuel cell forklifts were either deployed or on order in the United States.
September 6, 2012
The Energy Department today released a new report showing significant growth for the fuel cell industry in 2011 and forecasting continued growth through 2012. The 2011 Fuel Cell Technologies Market Report finds that commercial markets for fuel cell technologies expanded significantly over the last year, especially in the materials handling industry. At the end of 2011, more than 3,000 fuel cell forklifts were either deployed or on order in the United States.
I really like the scale of this. The market expanded significantly with around 3000 forklifts using FC, so in other words about the same number of Leafs Nissan expects to sell in Norway. ALL of the US has as many forklifts as tiny little Norway sells EVs. I give FC another 5 years before they are all dead for any car-based application. For planes, big rigs and some other specialized uses they might be worth it.
Cobos
Here's the ITM slide deck if you can't be bothered to sit through the Youtube.
http://www.itm-power.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/InvestingInFutureTransport-City%E2%80%93Hall-160812.pdf
http://www.itm-power.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/InvestingInFutureTransport-City%E2%80%93Hall-160812.pdf
Adm
Active Member
$2m per 500kg/24h station in 2015/17 not today. So let's wait and see if they can pull that off.
Let's see, drive a car I can "fuel" at home from a wall outlet, or a car I can fuel up at a gas station pretty much anywhere, or drive a car I can only fuel up at a very limited number of H2 stations that they are promising to build in 3 to 5 years. Hmmm.
Found this old article from 2008. It's a gem.
Pump It Up: We Refuel a Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Vehicle - Feature - Car and Driver
Pump It Up: We Refuel a Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Vehicle - Feature - Car and Driver
The excellent European Fuel Cell Forum reports have moved to a new site European Fuel Cell ForumReports
I don't get this article. Firstly he describes how quickly the supercharger can recharge the batteries in 30 minutes and then lays into EVs with the old "7 hours to refill, who hangs around a gas station for 7 hours?" thing. Then he misses out that Better Place has blanket coverage of Israel already.
Similar threads
