Hydrogen vs. Battery

[dpeilow]

There's definitely some confusion among those sources. 700 Bar is 10000 PSI. If it has 3.7kg capacity and 53 miles/kg efficiency, then the range is 196 and not 421 as Wikipedia claims.

If they are 700 Bar then no way is it getting filled in 3 minutes.

And finally with 60 kWh/kg electrolysers that must mean 1133 Wh/mile.

 

[JRP3]

It all adds up to a pile of crap :biggrin:

 

[jerry33]

The real question is "Do you want something at 700 bar being serviced by an auto mechanic?". That kind of pressure is just plain scary.

 

[doug]

It all adds up to a pile of crap :biggrin:

Yes, and again it was an advertisement, not a legit article. You'd think since they'd paid for it they'd at least get some facts right. Should complain to MNN for posting misinformation.

 

[jcstp]

They say celebrities use clean mercedeses
so not even sure they all drive f-cells
could be a very clean SLS AMG (just getting out of a car wash)

 

[Adm]

Some fascinating facts about the Mercedes B-class F-Cell

0-62: 11.4s (New thread in the Nissan Leaf Forum: MB B-Class F-Cells I Smoked!)

Curb weight: 1809 kg (3980 lbs)
Max. load: 275 kg (605 lbs) or in the USA driver only (ducks and runs)

Hardly a car ready for the market...

 

[Johan]

The real question is "Do you want something at 700 bar being serviced by an auto mechanic?". That kind of pressure is just plain scary.

I'm all for electric and I too don't think hydrogen will ever fly, BUT someone might say about a Tesla: Would really like something outputting several 100 amps at 300+ Volts in your garage/serviced by a car mechanic/etc"

 

[AndreN]

How much electricity does it take to compress 3.7kg of hydrogen to 700 bar?

Actually, I think I've calculated it properly:
To compress to 800 bar takes 16% of the energy in the hydrogen.
http://planetforlife.com/h2/h2swiss.html

Hydrogen burning releases 120 to 142 MJ per kg energy = 39.4 kwh
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2005/MichelleFung.shtml

So 6.3kwh of electricity would be needed just to compress 1kg of hydrogen.
Or 23.31 kwh to compress a full tank for this car. A Model S could go 72 miles with that.

And I've ignored the energy input for generating the hydrogen, and the 50% efficiency of the average fuel cell.

 

[jerry33]

I'm all for electric and I too don't think hydrogen will ever fly, BUT someone might say about a Tesla: Would really like something outputting several 100 amps at 300+ Volts in your garage/serviced by a car mechanic/etc"

I think there's a difference in that the HV electrics are clearly marked and most reasonable people can avoid the more dangerous areas if they are not trained in high voltage electrical work. The pressure vessel however, could be weak at any point. One of the reasons why steam cars never caught on was because of the need for very meticulous maintenance which the average car owner isn't likely to do (Think about maintaining your car to an FAA maintenance schedule, and cost, and you get the idea). It seems to me that hydrogen cars will require the same degree of care as the steam engine cars.

 

[spatterso911]

Found this in my neighborhood recently...

 

[dpeilow]

Wow. A real H2 car. In the wild.

Does a celebrity live there?

 

[doug]

Where does he refuel?

 

[dpeilow]

Where does he refuel?

Do we know it's a he?

 

[doug]

Do we know it's a he?

I don't. Was simply using masculine preferred.

 

[spatterso911]

Where does he refuel?

I don't know. It was parked on the next block over. I've never met the person who lives there.

 

[doug]

Scandinavian Countries Plan For Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Cars

Several northern European countries have signed a memorandum of understanding with Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai, to work towards the development of fuel cell vehicles and installing a hydrogen infrastructure.

As reported by Wards Auto, companies in Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Iceland are committing to a hydrogen-fueling infrastructure between 2014-2017. The Nordic countries join Germany in its promise to expand its hydrogen network.

 

[TEG]

Blech:
Hydrogen fuel-cell cars look to overtake electric autos - CNN.com

 

[dpeilow]

Was just about to post that. Contains every hydrogen cliche going.

 

[vfx]

Blech:
Hydrogen fuel-cell cars look to overtake electric autos - CNN.com

Despite the slightly leaning title CNN covered the bases pretty well.




The move within the auto industry to establish plans to mass produce fuel-cell cars comes as the battery-powered electric car industry appears to be gaining traction.
Electric cars won coveted recognition earlier this month, when the Tesla Model S was named car of the year by Motor Trend magazine. It was the first time the award went to a car that was not powered by an internal combustion engine.

 

[artsci]

How long has Honda had a fuel cell vehicle, the FCX Clarity, on lease in Southern California? At least two years by my reckoning. And why hasn't it become available nationwide? It's the massive investment in infrastructure necessary to make hydrogen readily available. The infrastructure already exists for battery powered cars and just about everyone has it at home. For this reason the FCX Clarity was dead on arrival and so is the whole idea of fuel cell cars. Given all the other demands on limited private and public resources, the capital just isn't there. And battery fires? Just wait until one of these suckers explodes. Fox News will liken it to the Hindenburg, even if it isn't close.