Hydrogen vs. Battery

[rcc]

Yep. The big advantage of EVs is the power distribution grid is already in place. No need to build out a new one.

Once the typical EV has a 200+ mile range instead of <140, most people will charge at home. We just need L2 chargers sprinkled here and there for folks doing longer trips (especially at hotels) and L3 chargers on highway corridors.

At 200+ miles of range, EV's become practical. Perfectly usable as a second car and can be a primary car if you're careful. The next inflection point is an EV with 600-800 miles of real-world range. At that point, you can literally drive an EV all day, put in 10 hours of L2 charging at night and charge at Superchargers the next day if you need more.

Affordable 200+ mile range EVs are within reach. We'll probably see 600+ mile EVs within 8 years. Honestly, I don't see how hydrogen can compete.

 

[richkae]

The fact that the fuel cell stack is very expensive - and the cost is directly tied to the power output - means that fuel cell cars will be very power constrained punishment cars.

I dont think fuel cell cars will ever take off, but if they were for sale in quantity, I can imagine a world where the fuel cell car is the punishment gutless econobox, and the BEV is the high performance car for people who love cars.
I think that would be hilarious.
Unfortunately it is far more likely that fuel cell cars will have to be some kind of battery/capacitor hybrid to make them palatable at all - but I still think that battery technology will advance fast enough that burdening a BEV with fuel cell stuff wont be necessary.

 

[dpeilow]

I'm expecting the HFC supporting companies to massively subsidise them in the first few years. Not by a few thousand like the Prius, but >50%.

 

[VolkerP]

For this reason the FCX Clarity was dead on arrival and so is the whole idea of fuel cell cars. [...] And battery fires? Just wait until one of these suckers explodes. Fox News will liken it to the Hindenburg, even if it isn't close.

Yup. Will be much louder than Hindenburg.

 

[vfx]

To mis-quote a recent politician:

We all know that Hydrogen is not a "legitimate" electric car.

 

[doug]

lame

 

[Doug_G]

OMG another "silent" commercial... that'll raise another "EV noisemaker" rabble for sure.

 

[vfx]

Have to admit this was really good. I laughed exactly as they planned.

 

[doug]

From the guys responsible for this:

 

[JRP3]

I guess that represents the public being crushed once again by a monolithic fueling infrastructure controlled by big oil and big auto?

 

[doug]

Toyota to license fuel-cell technology to BMW - Nikkei | Reuters

Under the agreement, to be made official as early as Thursday, Toyota will provide the world's largest premium carmaker with drivetrain and hydrogen storage technology, the business daily said.BMW will use the technology to build a prototype vehicle by 2015, with plans for a market release around 2020, the Nikkei said.
...
Fuel-cell vehicles can run five times longer than battery electric cars on a single power-up, and it takes just minutes to fill the tank with hydrogen, compared with 8 hours or so to recharge a battery.

 

[dpeilow]

Three Automakers Hope To Bring Hydrogen Back from the Brink | Autopia | Wired.com

 

[doug]

Three Automakers Hope To Bring Hydrogen Back from the Brink | Autopia | Wired.com

Pushed back yet again. I am seeing few to no advantages of a HFCV over a PHEV/EREV like the Chevy Volt.

 

[doug]

Insight: Electric cars head toward another dead end| Reuters

Are electric cars running out of juice again?

Recent moves by Japan's two largest automakers suggest that the electric car, after more than 100 years of development and several brief revivals, still is not ready for prime time - and may never be.

In the meantime, the attention of automotive executives in Asia, Europe and North America is beginning to swing toward an unusual but promising new alternate power source: hydrogen.
...

 

[dpeilow]

Disappointed With Electric Cars, Automakers Are Making Bad Bet On Fuel Cells - Forbes

Bob Lutz almost scores a bulls eye.


...and tacitly admits the greenhouse effect?

 

[Doug_G]

...and tacitly admits the greenhouse effect?

I think that was sarcasm... emphasized by this later quote:

A vehicle which emits nothing but “clean, pure water vapor,” known, by the way, to be the planet’s No. 1 green-house gas.

 

[dpeilow]

^ exactly, that was what I meant.


1.5 million hydrogen cars by 2030 possible - MSN Cars UK

 

[doug]

1.5 million hydrogen cars by 2030 possible - MSN Cars UK

Well, anything's "possible".

 

[araoa]

Hydrogen vs Electric cars

Good Afternoon,

I am currently doing a technical report for a Communication's class on a comparison between hydrogen- and battery-powered vehicles, and I would like to kindly ask if someone could please help me by answering some of the following questions. If someone is able to answer these, please leave your name and e-mail for citation purposes.

Thank you all in advance.

1- How difficult do you think it would be to build the required infrastructure for both these technologies? (Charging stations and hydrogen fueling stations)
2- Do you think that it would need so much energy to transform hydrogen to its liquid state making it not a feasible idea?
3- What is your opinion about the environmental impact of both these technologies?
4- It is known that hydrogen is very prone to explosion. Do you thin this fact could affect its safety?
5- With the recent launch of the Tesla S, an all-electric sports car, do you think the industry will have the tendency to follow this path of electric-powered vehicles?
6- Do you think it will be possible to improve the amount of charge a battery can hold so that battery-powered cars can achieve a range of 400-600 miles in the next few years?
7- Comparing the refueling time of hydrogen cars with the recharging time of electric vehicles, hydrogen has a great advantage. Is there any way to improve the recharging time for electric vehicles? How?
8- Which of these technologies do you think will be the choice for government funding?
9- Which of these vehicles can more easily be sold at an affordable price for the end customer?
10- Overall, what do you think it is the best choice for the future? Hydrogen- or electric-powered vehicles? Why?

Note: Please feel free to add any comments that you think might be relevant to the research.

 

[Zythryn]

A number of your questions are based on incorrect information or misunderstandings.
As for using posters as a reference, I would encourage you not to. Instead, use comments here as a base understanding that will help you focus on research papers that have already been done and come with full documentation.

1. Less infrastructure is needed for EVs than for hydrogen. As everyone with electric power in a garage has the necessary infrastructure for many people. In 2 1/2 years of driving Tesla's I have not needed a public charging station once.
Hydrogen storage, transport and production all pose challenges.
4. I'm not so sure of that, but it is stored at high pressures which can pose problems. Gasoline contains more energy and is far more of a danger in my opinion.
5. The Roadster was an electric sports car. The Model S is an electric Luxury Sedan.
6. This would not be an improvement. Improvements to energy density will be made. But rather than extending range to 400-600 miles I believe manufacturers will lower the prices for the same 200-300 mile range.
7. I disagree with your premise. For my driving patterns, EVs have a much more convenient refueling. I never need to take a detour from what/where I am going, pump noxious fluid into my vehicle while occasionally standing in bad weather, and spend 5 times as much money. Instead I take 10 seconds once I have gotten home to plug in my car, and 10 seconds before I go somewhere. When gas or hydrogen can be pumped as quickly and as conveniently get back to me