I can confirm AEB does work

[Vines]

KS I know your comprehension works, but you have a blind spot here. I know from seeing your posts how you never see the other perspective because you always think you are right. Let me just reiterate how right I see that you think you are.

I have chosen to block you again, as you have provide little useful to this discussion and now are repeating yourself. Likewise your caustic input to other discussions will not be missed by me.

I'd like a gentle press of the accelerator, as well as any other human input to override AEB. Doing otherwise assumes the computer is a better pilot than I am. Until that is true, I want the car to respond to my inputs with minimal delay.

If I need to roll forward 10 or 15 feet in an emergency because the person behind me doesn't seem to see me stopped, a hard press of the accelerator is not safe. A large steering input during emergency braking may cause me to lose traction (at least my reptile brain is trained to think so) Currently the car will try to second guess me as a pilot, I feel that programming is unsafe.

I ask for the car to roll forward 10-15 feet using the universal signal "press the accelerator pedal." When the car does not respond I bring it to the thoughtful community here. I clearly made at least 1 mistake.

 

[Paddy3101]

I'd like a gentle press of the accelerator, as well as any other human input to override AEB. Doing otherwise assumes the computer is a better pilot than I am. Until that is true, I want the car to respond to my inputs with minimal delay.

In many respects the computer IS much better than any human.
a)We don't have enough hands and feet, and dexterity to control 4 brakes and 2 motors all simultaneously
b)Our sense of 'acceleration' and 'distance' is very primitive in comparison
c)We want the car to isolate us from the environment, so that we cannot perceive what needs to be done.

On the other hand, we work better at a 'Macro' level, deciding where we want to go, and what time we want to get there.

In between there is a grey area, with different people having different capabilities, and the same with machines.

If I need to roll forward 10 or 15 feet in an emergency because the person behind me doesn't seem to see me stopped, a hard press of the accelerator is not safe. A large steering input during emergency braking may cause me to lose traction (at least my reptile brain is trained to think so) Currently the car will try to second guess me as a pilot, I feel that programming is unsafe.

I ask for the car to roll forward 10-15 feet using the universal signal "press the accelerator pedal." When the car does not respond I bring it to the thoughtful community here. I clearly made at least 1 mistake.

Then learn how to 'press the accelerator pedal' with more control to achieve what you want.

 

[Knightshade]

KS I know your comprehension works, but you have a blind spot here. I know from seeing your posts how you never see the other perspective because you always think you are right. Let me just reiterate how right I see that you think you are.

mainly because I am literally right and have quoted you the user manual showing you are literally wrong

Not sure how you remain confused on these facts.

I have chosen to block you again, as you have provide little useful to this discussion

you mean besides correcting your factually wrong claims, and quoting you 3 different ways the user manual tells you how to do the thing you insist is not possible?

and now are repeating yourself

I keep repeating facts.

You keep repeatedly denying them.

I'd like a gentle press of the accelerator, as well as any other human input to override AEB.

I'd like a mansion and a yacht.

My desires are less likely than yours to get people killed because they're resting their foot near the go pedal when daydreaming and about to slam into another car though

The car provides three different ways for the human to override AEB, all require a specific POSITIVE input of a desire to override.

Your continuing to insist the car can't be overridden is grossly false- and your desire for basically ANY input at all to override it grossly dangerous.

Doing otherwise assumes the computer is a better pilot than I am.

Given the much lower rate of accidents on AP than without it- it generally IS a better one.

I know, I know, everyone thinks they're above average. They're not. They can't be of course, given what average actually means.

If I need to roll forward 10 or 15 feet in an emergency because the person behind me doesn't seem to see me stopped, a hard press of the accelerator is not safe.

Nor would it help if they're approaching at any significant speed.

At 60 mph (below most highway speed limits) the car is moving 88 feet per second. Gently moving 10 feet further up in a straight line with a light pedal press won't help you.

A large steering input during emergency braking may cause me to lose traction (at least my reptile brain is trained to think so)

Your reptile brain is, again, factually wrong.

Here, again the computer knows better than you.

Steering while braking hasn't been a problem since ABS was invented- and ABS is very very good these days.

Currently the car will try to second guess me as a pilot

No, it won't. Just the opposite- it will attempt to save you from a bad crash- and if you provide DO NOT DO THAT REALLY input it'll stop doing so.

Giving you 3 different options to tell it that in fact.

I feel that programming is unsafe.

I feel Midnight Madness is an underrated gem of a film- everyone has opinions that are hard to really support though.

 

[Vines]

In many respects the computer IS much better than any human.
a)We don't have enough hands and feet, and dexterity to control 4 brakes and 2 motors all simultaneously
b)Our sense of 'acceleration' and 'distance' is very primitive in comparison
c)We want the car to isolate us from the environment, so that we cannot perceive what needs to be done.

On the other hand, we work better at a 'Macro' level, deciding where we want to go, and what time we want to get there.

In between there is a grey area, with different people having different capabilities, and the same with machines.



Then learn how to 'press the accelerator pedal' with more control to achieve what you want.

I did press the accelerator, and the car refused to move, due to the AEB software ignoring the gentle accelerator press. A harder press would likely result in an accident, since I needed to move just 10-15 feet.

Going a bit deeper, the melding between a computer and a human is really tough thing, but the explicit agreement is that at this point the human is always the primary decision maker. I get that different people will respond differently, but most people looking for the car to go forward will press the accelerator. The few that were hovering over the pedal may hit it gently. Any concerns that we need to protect those users who were not only caught unaware, but also hit the wrong pedal are misguided in my opinion.

This AEB behavior is backwards compared to how the rest of the Tesla mind meld works. In every other case, the human input will override the computer. Why does the computer try to second guess me here?

I would argue that the proper computer response if it "Thinks I am doing it wrong" would be similar to the computer response when object aware acceleration is active, and you try to accelerate into a wall. The accelerator will work when pressed but will not allow a massive input. This would be more safe in a majority of cases.

 

[Paddy3101]

I did press the accelerator, and the car refused to move, due to the AEB software ignoring the gentle accelerator press. A harder press would likely result in an accident, since I needed to move just 10-15 feet.

Again, learn to use the accelerator pedal to achieve what you want.

Going a bit deeper, the melding between a computer and a human is really tough thing, but the explicit agreement is that at this point the human is always the primary decision maker.

Absolutely, IT IS, in the case. Learn how to make that decision.

I get that different people will respond differently, but most people looking for the car to go forward will press the accelerator. The few that were hovering over the pedal may hit it gently. Any concerns that we need to protect those users who were not only caught unaware, but also hit the wrong pedal are misguided in my opinion.

OR, you are actively driving forward with your foot on the accelerator. You haven't seen the child run into the road in front of you. Do you want the car to drive into the child, because your foot is on the accelerator pedal? Is that a POSITIVE command to drive into the child?

Or do you want it to brake?

When it's braking, your foot wiggles a little, because of the GFORCE. Is that a command for you to accelerate the car into the child, or is it just a consequence of your foot wiggling in response to the GFORCE.

A driver's reaction time is about 1 second, probably 1.5 to get from accelerator to brake. Which is probably no co-incidence about the time taken to give back control.

This AEB behavior is backwards compared to how the rest of the Tesla mind meld works. In every other case, the human input will override the computer. Why does the computer try to second guess me here?

Nope, Tesla mind meld is ALWAY on the side of safety. Explicitly says they would rather the human wasn't driving at all, because they are rubbish at it.

I would argue that the proper computer response if it "Thinks I am doing it wrong" would be similar to the computer response when object aware acceleration is active, and you try to accelerate into a wall. The accelerator will work when pressed but will not allow a massive input. This would be more safe in a majority of cases.

I think you have answered your own question here. That is EXACTLY what would have happened if you had mashed your foot to the floor. (Or accelerated anything other than gently) so the car knew it was intended.

You have given it a command to drive at the car in front, I think it's safer than staying where I am, the car would have done it, BUT limited the force/speed of the acceleration.

Wiggle your big toe a little, and it's not a POSITIVE command of what to do. So it will do what it thinks is safest.

Again, learn what the reaction to the accelerator pedal would be, it's working for you, not against you.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

AEB actually scares the crap out of me now, after a very close near miss rear end accident. I am considering turning it off, as its more safe deactivated.

Car in front of me stops, I see it but am not applying the brakes as soon as the tesla wants me to. Jeeves activates AEB, and I come to a screeching stop at least 15-20 feet from the next car. Despite having plenty of room for a more gentle stop it used full lock.

The problem was that as I saw it happening I tried to tap the gas to move forward and give the next car some room to stop. The accelerator pedal was deactivated for a couple seconds and I was totally exposed!!! The car wouldn't budge forward.

Luckily the car behind me was paying attention, but they stopped less than 2' from my rear bumper. All I needed was to roll forward a few feet, or if the car behind me didn't stop, I could have veered into the emergency lane. All that was impossible because my car would not accelerate for at least a second after AEB.

I really don't like my car not responding to my controls because it thinks its smarter than me.

Sorry if it was already asked, but do you have dashcam video of the incident?

I'm curious about the lack of response to accelerator pedal - are you sure it did not respond at all? With OAA, it's surprising how much power gets pulled when someone is in front of you and you gun it. I've tried to follow another Tesla off the line before (relatively cautiously) and he totally smoked me because of the OAA kicking in. I just wonder whether there was some response, just not what you were accustomed to?

 

[Vines]

Again, learn to use the accelerator pedal to achieve what you want.

Absolutely, IT IS, in the case. Learn how to make that decision.

OR, you are actively driving forward with your foot on the accelerator. You haven't seen the child run into the road in front of you. Do you want the car to drive into the child, because your foot is on the accelerator pedal? Is that a POSITIVE command to drive into the child?

Yes, I want the driver to make the decision whether to hit the child/dog/deer/sasquach/plastic bag/trash or not. If the car thinks that a deer for instance is a child and stops suddenly for wildlife I am legally liable for stopping suddenly on a roadway and causing a rear end accident.

Drivers that want to stop hit the brakes, drivers that want to go forward hit the accelerator. Teaching drivers to hit the brakes first so that they reactivate the accelerator is counter intuitive. Teaching people to drive this way is in my opinion a safety issue.

In this case, since I have obstacle aware acceleration turned off, my only acceptable input series to simply move the car forward 10 feet, is to first mash the accelerator, then mash the brake, or mash the brake, then accelerate, then mash brake again. The alternative that I desire and I suspect 99% of drivers would do automatically being the intuitive gentle press of accelerator to get a gentle forward movement.

I want the accelerator to respond to an acceleration command with proportionate force to my input. At the minimum respond at all. Tesla should try to follow the training of a driver, with the computer responses.

I am surprised that I see disagreement with this, and I am getting "Learn to drive" comments instead. I genuinely thought that everyone wanted the car to default to the human in an emergency. I honestly cannot see how this particular part of the AEB feature is more safe than the alternative.

What are we protecting with this disabling the accelerator during AEB? People not able to resist the G forces of an AEB event with their foot? Is that really a concern? If so, you could reactivate AEB as soon as the accelerator was let up.


Unfortunately no dash cam footage.

 

[Vines]

Sorry if it was already asked, but do you have dashcam video of the incident?

I'm curious about the lack of response to accelerator pedal - are you sure it did not respond at all? With OAA, it's surprising how much power gets pulled when someone is in front of you and you gun it. I've tried to follow another Tesla off the line before (relatively cautiously) and he totally smoked me because of the OAA kicking in. I just wonder whether there was some response, just not what you were accustomed to?

I am 100% sure there was no accelerator response. I have felt this same thing twice now, but I didn't key into it the first time as I didn't really understand what happened.

 

[Kevy Baby]

My $0.02 on this @Vines

The manual states that you SHOULD be able to use your accelerator in this instance. If it correct that you COULDN'T use your accelerator, then it sounds like there may be a problem. However, this is a difficult one to replicate (I know I wouldn't want to try).

But if the distance difference is 10 feet, I question whether anyone would be able to have the subtle control to use the accelerator "just enough" to momentarily disengage the AEB to take control like you describe. This isn't just an accelerator/brake balance, you are also bringing a computer into the equation and all happening in a split second. This is not something any human (even a skilled race driver) could do.

 

[Paddy3101]

Yes, I want the driver to make the decision whether to hit the child/dog/deer/sasquach/plastic bag/trash or not. If the car thinks that a deer for instance is a child and stops suddenly for wildlife I am legally liable for stopping suddenly on a roadway and causing a rear end accident.

Drivers that want to stop hit the brakes, drivers that want to go forward hit the accelerator. Teaching drivers to hit the brakes first so that they reactivate the accelerator is counter intuitive. Teaching people to drive this way is in my opinion a safety issue.

In this case, since I have obstacle aware acceleration turned off, my only acceptable input series to simply move the car forward 10 feet, is to first mash the accelerator, then mash the brake, or mash the brake, then accelerate, then mash brake again. The alternative that I desire and I suspect 99% of drivers would do automatically being the intuitive gentle press of accelerator to get a gentle forward movement.

I want the accelerator to respond to an acceleration command with proportionate force to my input. At the minimum respond at all. Tesla should try to follow the training of a driver, with the computer responses.

I am surprised that I see disagreement with this, and I am getting "Learn to drive" comments instead. I genuinely thought that everyone wanted the car to default to the human in an emergency. I honestly cannot see how this particular part of the AEB feature is more safe than the alternative.

What are we protecting with this disabling the accelerator during AEB? People not able to resist the G forces of an AEB event with their foot? Is that really a concern? If so, you could reactivate AEB as soon as the accelerator was let up.


Unfortunately no dash cam footage.

Now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Standing in the corner stamping your feet, I WANT, I WANT I WANT.

Step back and think about it.

 

[Knightshade]

Yes, I want the driver to make the decision whether to hit the child/dog/deer/sasquach/plastic bag/trash or not.

And the car explicitly lets you do that.

Via 3 different methods spelled out in the manual.

If the car thinks that a deer for instance is a child and stops suddenly for wildlife I am legally liable for stopping suddenly on a roadway and causing a rear end accident.

CITATION NEEDED.

Most jurisdictions I'm aware of the person who rear-ends you is at fault for following too closely to stop safely.

Drivers that want to stop hit the brakes, drivers that want to go forward hit the accelerator.

And if you hit the accelerator firmly, it'll override AEB.

Like you've been told roughly 976 times so far.

 

[Vines]

Now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Standing in the corner stamping your feet, I WANT, I WANT I WANT.

Step back and think about it.

I asked for the accelerator pedal to respond to inputs, and you accuse me of stomping feet and arguing for the sake of arguing.
I think this AEB functionality needs some work, it feels unsafe in its current form in this admittedly edge case.

Feel free disagree, that's fine, but don't resort to ad hominem attacks.

Address the issue I have raised would add to this discussion. Is it safer in your mind for 1000 random driving events of this nature that AEB will not give the user control to accelerate from a collision, unless the accelerator pedal is pressed hard, or the brakes are hit first? The added safety this feature gives, is that during an AEB braking event in its current programming, you cannot accidentally press the accelerator softly.

The real question for a wider audience is which condition is safer for a majority of drivers. I don't pretend to speak for everyone.

For now I have just turned off AEB as well as OAA. I just dislike disabling safety systems in general. In this case, though I want the car to respond to my inputs. If I make a wrong input I can live with that responsibility. If I cannot avoid an accident because of a safety feature, even after knowing its limitations, I will feel foolish.

 

[balzary]

The real question for a wider audience is which condition is safer for a majority of drivers. I don't pretend to speak for everyone.

The real question should be how you've managed to activate the AEB twice... I don't know if the safety issue we should be concerned about is the car.. Have yet to have it activate on me, sure it's given me early warnings but never taken over. Leave a little space perhaps.

 

[Paddy3101]

I asked for the accelerator pedal to respond to inputs, and you accuse me of stomping feet and arguing for the sake of arguing.
I think this AEB functionality needs some work, it feels unsafe in its current form in this admittedly edge case.

Feel free disagree, that's fine, but don't resort to ad hominem attacks.

Address the issue I have raised would add to this discussion. Is it safer in your mind for 1000 random driving events of this nature that AEB will not give the user control to accelerate from a collision, unless the accelerator pedal is pressed hard, or the brakes are hit first? The added safety this feature gives, is that during an AEB braking event in its current programming, you cannot accidentally press the accelerator softly.

The real question for a wider audience is which condition is safer for a majority of drivers. I don't pretend to speak for everyone.

For now I have just turned off AEB as well as OAA. I just dislike disabling safety systems in general. In this case, though I want the car to respond to my inputs. If I make a wrong input I can live with that responsibility. If I cannot avoid an accident because of a safety feature, even after knowing its limitations, I will feel foolish.

Multiple people have addressed your issues, multiple times, including me, you just refuse to acknowledge that, hence standing in the corner stamping your feet seems appropriate.

The car does what you are asking for, you just need to learn to use it, Or don't as you see fit.

 

[Vines]

Thanks for the discussion all.

Still interested in discussion if anyone else thinks its safer for AEB to deactivate the accelerator pedal until you hit the brakes, turn the wheel, or hit the accelerator hard, rather than immediately stopping the AEB whenever the accelerator is pressed?

Not as interested in discussions regarding stomping feet, whether its safe to have activated AEB twice in 40k miles etc. Feel free to carry on with those discussions without my input.

 

[Kevy Baby]

Still interested in discussion if anyone else thinks its safer for AEB to deactivate the accelerator pedal until you hit the brakes, turn the wheel, or hit the accelerator hard, rather than immediately stopping the AEB whenever the accelerator is pressed?

1. If the accelerator didn't respond when AEB was activated, then your car has an issue and should be reviewed by Tesla
2. I don't believe that anyone's driving skill would have allowed for the extra 10 feet of vehicle movement by a momentary slight override of AEB using the accelerator that would not have made this an accident (where the driver of the Tesla would be at fault for rear-ending the vehicle in front of them).

 

[Vines]

1. If the accelerator didn't respond when AEB was activated, then your car has an issue and should be reviewed by Tesla
2. I don't believe that anyone's driving skill would have allowed for the extra 10 feet of vehicle movement by a momentary slight override of AEB using the accelerator that would not have made this an accident (where the driver of the Tesla would be at fault for rear-ending the vehicle in front of them).

Well in my opinion AEB activated very early, way too early in a surprising way. I am concerned about how often it has activated as well. There could be something wrong going on there.

But basically what I experienced is that the car stopped way short of the bumper in front of me. As I am totally stopped, I can see the car approaching from the rear. The car in front of me starts moving again. I hear the tires screech from behind as they lock the brakes up and immediately I try to start moving forward, and close that 10-15 feet.

What would truly being safer look like? The Tesla would have even moved ahead a bit on its own, especially after detecting the driver pushing the accelerator.

 

[user212_nr]

No, I want to be able to override AEB with a push of the accelerator. The current form is unsafe in a panic stop situation as it removes my option to escape with the accelerator.

Yeah, I know what you think you want, but you just needed it to adapt a little better to the situation. You cannot have a co-driver situation with a feature that is overriding you.

Imagine someone went to tap the accelerator pedal, but AEB triggered just before. Now they cancelled the AEB. Also keep in mind the Model 3 has rear camera, so the fact that it stopped "2 feet" from the car behind may not be 100% a coincidence.

 

[user212_nr]

From the manual

So the reason the accelerator did not work is that it was not pressed hard enough.

 

[Vines]

The behavior of the car matches the manual. Is this the safest behavior?
Is it in your opinion safer for the majority of drivers, that the accelerator to be disabled during AEB events unless you press hard? That is to say, when the car is braking hard, should any touch of the accelerator disable AEB in your opinion?