I drive 12,000 miles on $50 worth of electricity

[snorp]

I know the title comes across as clickbait but hear me out. I get into this argument/debate with an anti EV guy today and we go down all the usual paths; gotta burn fossil fuels to make electricity, high priced cars for rich people, but then he says they aren't any cheaper to operate than a gas car. And I'm like of course they are. But I don't know by how much. I just know they are. I like to debate with facts but I didn't know how to compare how far I can drive vs how far he can drive and turn it into actual easy to understand math.

So I recall that I contributed to a thread a while back on how far a person could drive a Tesla on $43, but we were talking about supercharging, not home charging. I home charge every night, plus I have FUSC, yet I didn't know what it costs me to drive a few hundred miles. The ICE owner knew exactly what he pays to drive a few hundred miles. Well, I decided its time to figure it out once and for all.

I have the GA Power EV rate plan where I pay .01/kWh between 11pm and 7am. This is when I charge my car. 1 cent per kilowatt.

My MX generally travels (as per Teslafi) 2.7 miles per kilowatt. (yeah i know, unusual way of measuring efficiency, but valid nonetheless)
I can purchase 5000 kilowatts for $50 not including charging inefficiencies. (50/.01=5000) Deducting 10% for inefficiencies means I can purchase 4500 kilowatts for $50. (5000-10%=4500) (I think my HPWC is ~94% efficient, but I'm using 10% just so that can't be a semi-valid counter point.)
4500 kilowatts X 2.7 miles = 12,150 miles. Not bad for $50.

So how many miles per gallon would an ICE have to get to travel the same distance at today's gas prices?
Gas here is $3.50/gallon.
So I can purchase 14.3 gallons for $50. (50/3.5=14.3)
12,150 miles/14.3 gallons = 849 miles per gallon (rounded down to avoid debate about tenths of a mpg)

I can drive 12,150 miles on $50, and it would take an ICE getting 849 mpg at today's gas prices to do the same.

Now I'm better armed for my next anti EV conversation. You can also plug in the numbers that pertain to you and see how far you can go on $50. I would be interested to read what the more efficient Teslas can do on $50, albiet at maybe a higher electricity cost.

 

[Harvey Danger]

hours

it's kilowatt-hours

Anyway yeah at 1 cent per kWh you're living the dream. I'm paying 13 times that with no time-of-day option and I *still* think I'm doing ok vs ICE...

Put solar on your roof and stash the electrons in a powerwall and you can get it down to (or, if your utility will buy extra juice, *below*) zero. That will end these debates *real* quick.

 

[Richbot]

Dang. That's a good flex rate. The only rate reduction my utility offers is a .03$/ kWh reduction for off-peak. As in, it goes from 11.8 cents flat, to 11.5 off-peak.

 

[snorp]

Right, kilowatt-hours. I get it. It's just so much easier to explain to a non EV person that my vehicle stores 90 kilowatts, and I can drive 2.7 miles per kilowatt, so I can travel 243 miles on a full charge. Of course I won't drive to zero charge just like an ICE driver doesn't purposely drive to an empty tank.

I recognize the flaws with boiling it down like this, but it really is the simplest way I have found to explain range to non EV owners. Most people's eyes glaze over if I bring up Wh per mile as it relates to driving style, tires, temperature, or if I try to explain the math behind MPGe, usable pack capacity, etc. Not everyone obviously, but I start with the lowest common dominator and get into more detail as appropriate.

Solar+PW has been ordered, but I mostly intend to use this to offset peak rates of .21/kWh and for outage purposes. I didn't order a system large enough to sell/trade much electricity back to the grid.

 

[ngng]

when I try to explain to non-EV people I just tell them cost per "tank". easier that way. the 100kwh packs are easy math too. but, ignoring pack size, I'd just say: it costs about $20-25 to go 270 miles

 

[dmurphy]

when I try to explain to non-EV people I just tell them cost per "tank". easier that way. the 100kwh packs are easy math too. but, ignoring pack size, I'd just say: it costs about $20-25 to go 270 miles

Wow, that's really expensive for 270 miles ...

I pay 13.5c/kWh.
I'm averaging 300wh/mi (a/k/a .3kWh) on our X LR+ -- that's 13.5 x .3 = 4.05c/mile. In other words, $10.93 for 270 miles ...

If I have a gasoline car at 20mpg... and gas is averaging $3.19/gal ... that's $3.19/20 = 15.95c/mi.

So what I usually tell people is it's in the ballpark of 1/4 the cost of gasoline. About 4 cents per mile for the X, or about 16 cents per mile for a gas SUV at 20mpg.

NJ prices of course - I know you're in CA, so adjust appropriately.

 

[aesculus]

Wow, that's really expensive for 270 miles .

Welcome to California. If I charge during peak its 54c/kWh. Partial peak is 24c/kWh. And the best rate for me is off peak (the only time I do charge) is at 13.5c/kWh.
And unfortunately this year because of lack of water and little hydro generation, I am using natural gas generated electricity. Those who are on rate plans more aligned to solar can charge during the day and use sun energy.

 

[ngng]

Wow, that's really expensive for 270 miles ...

I pay 13.5c/kWh.
I'm averaging 300wh/mi (a/k/a .3kWh) on our X LR+ -- that's 13.5 x .3 = 4.05c/mile. In other words, $10.93 for 270 miles ...

If I have a gasoline car at 20mpg... and gas is averaging $3.19/gal ... that's $3.19/20 = 15.95c/mi.

So what I usually tell people is it's in the ballpark of 1/4 the cost of gasoline. About 4 cents per mile for the X, or about 16 cents per mile for a gas SUV at 20mpg.

NJ prices of course - I know you're in CA, so adjust appropriately.

it's all relative I guess. premium fuel here just crossed $5/gal. I think I saw $5.25 the other day. diesel fluctuates wildly, but has been pretty constant around $3.20. only problem is it takes me 30gal to fill up my truck

 

[dmurphy]

Welcome to California. If I charge during peak its 54c/kWh. Partial peak is 24c/kWh. And the best rate for me is off peak (the only time I do charge) is at 13.5c/kWh.
And unfortunately this year because of lack of water and little hydro generation, I am using natural gas generated electricity. Those who are on rate plans more aligned to solar can charge during the day and use sun energy.

it's all relative I guess. premium fuel here just crossed $5/gal. I think I saw $5.25 the other day. diesel fluctuates wildly, but has been pretty constant around $3.20. only problem is it takes me 30gal to fill up my truck

Well that's kinda the thing, right?

If electricity is 24c/kWh for partial-peak, and gas is $5/gal... the 4:1 ratio is still fairly close ....

$.24 * .3 kWh = 7.2 cents per mile for X ...
$5 / 20 = 25 cents per mile for gas SUV @ 20mpg.

So I like to tell folks that, whatever they pay for fuel, I pay between 1/3 and 1/4 of that for charging. Does that make sense?

As for Diesel, well, that's a whole different kettle of fish and given that diesel costs are almost the same east/west coast, it highlights the political nature of gasoline pricing. But that's a discussion we should be having over a beer!

 

[Big Earl]

I know the title comes across as clickbait but hear me out. I get into this argument/debate with an anti EV guy today and we go down all the usual paths; gotta burn fossil fuels to make electricity, high priced cars for rich people, but then he says they aren't any cheaper to operate than a gas car. And I'm like of course they are. But I don't know by how much. I just know they are. I like to debate with facts but I didn't know how to compare how far I can drive vs how far he can drive and turn it into actual easy to understand math.

So I recall that I contributed to a thread a while back on how far a person could drive a Tesla on $43, but we were talking about supercharging, not home charging. I home charge every night, plus I have FUSC, yet I didn't know what it costs me to drive a few hundred miles. The ICE owner knew exactly what he pays to drive a few hundred miles. Well, I decided its time to figure it out once and for all.

I have the GA Power EV rate plan where I pay .01/kWh between 11pm and 7am. This is when I charge my car. 1 cent per kilowatt.

My MX generally travels (as per Teslafi) 2.7 miles per kilowatt. (yeah i know, unusual way of measuring efficiency, but valid nonetheless)
I can purchase 5000 kilowatts for $50 not including charging inefficiencies. (50/.01=5000) Deducting 10% for inefficiencies means I can purchase 4500 kilowatts for $50. (5000-10%=4500) (I think my HPWC is ~94% efficient, but I'm using 10% just so that can't be a semi-valid counter point.)
4500 kilowatts X 2.7 miles = 12,150 miles. Not bad for $50.

So how many miles per gallon would an ICE have to get to travel the same distance at today's gas prices?
Gas here is $3.50/gallon.
So I can purchase 14.3 gallons for $50. (50/3.5=14.3)
12,150 miles/14.3 gallons = 849 miles per gallon (rounded down to avoid debate about tenths of a mpg)

I can drive 12,150 miles on $50, and it would take an ICE getting 849 mpg at today's gas prices to do the same.

Now I'm better armed for my next anti EV conversation. You can also plug in the numbers that pertain to you and see how far you can go on $50. I would be interested to read what the more efficient Teslas can do on $50, albiet at maybe a higher electricity cost.

Is your one cent per kilowatt-hour inclusive of all fees and tariffs? A lot of times people will look at the generation charge and think that's what they're paying, while neglecting to account for transmission and distribution charges, taxes and additional surcharges.

Some rate structures are quite complex. Here's an example of the rate schedule I opted in to with Dominion Energy. Add 10% to that for 100% green power offset (purchasing RECs). https://cdn-dominionenergy-prd-001....fs/virginia/residential-rates/schedule-1s.pdf ... this ends up running me about 10 cents per kWh all-in but takes some pretty significant load shifting on our part to minimize usage during peak times.

 

[snorp]

Is your one cent per kilowatt-hour inclusive of all fees and tariffs? A lot of times people will look at the generation charge and think that's what they're paying, while neglecting to account for transmission and distribution charges, taxes and additional surcharges.

Some rate structures are quite complex. Here's an example of the rate schedule I opted in to with Dominion Energy. Add 10% to that for 100% green power offset (purchasing RECs). https://cdn-dominionenergy-prd-001....fs/virginia/residential-rates/schedule-1s.pdf ... this ends up running me about 10 cents per kWh all-in but takes some pretty significant load shifting on our part to minimize usage during peak times.

Yeah fair point. As of my last bill the taxes and fees add $0.026 per kWh using an even distribution. I think that just blew up my argument.

 

[snorp]

I need to think about this more. The taxes and fees are based on a percentage of dollar amounts, so the higher tiered rates are disproportionally responsible for the taxes and fees. Hmmmmm Not blown up yet...

 

[Big Earl]

Yeah fair point. As of my last bill the taxes and fees add $0.026 per kWh using an even distribution. I think that just blew up my argument.

Thanks for posting the bill - very helpful. All-in, you paid $287.36 for a total of 2,361 kWh, which comes out to 12.17 cents per kWh.

Also, I commend you on your peak vs off-peak consumption - you'd really done a good job of minimizing on-peak usage, keeping at just 15% of your total consumption.

 

[Harvey Danger]

The whole house is averaging 12.17 cents, but let's grant that the OP claims only to charge the *Tesla* with "SuperOffPeak" electricity, so the original claim of 1¢/kWh is still plausible. Even if taxes tripled that rate it's still fantastic.

 

[Big Earl]

I suspect this is the OP's tariff sheet: https://www.georgiapower.com/conten...fs/electric-service-tariff-pdfs/TOU-PEV-8.pdf however plugging the numbers into a spreadsheet comes up with very different results from OP's bill, so his rates must be different than what's listed. I came up with $163.74 in usage fees while his bill lists $225.88 in usage fees.

Regardless, doing the math at 1 cent per kWh is not accurate. His costs are still low, just not that low. I think it's fair to stick with the total bill divided by total usage method since without EV charging, he likely wouldn't be on a TOU plan and wouldn't be subject to exorbitant on-peak rates (although GA Power's standard tiered rates aren't fantastic). Yes, you might only be paying 5 cents per kWh for your EV, but you're paying double the normal daytime rate for everything else.

 

[snorp]

I suspect this is the OP's tariff sheet: https://www.georgiapower.com/conten...fs/electric-service-tariff-pdfs/TOU-PEV-8.pdf

Interesting. I never picked up on the "rounding" statement on the GA Power website until I went to investigate why your numbers are different than mine. Thank you for the info. I stand corrected, I pay $0.01437/kWh between 11pm and 7am.

Or at least that's what I should be paying. I agree that the numbers don't add up. Seems I'm being overcharged? I'll dig into this further.

Mark my words, I will absolutely determine exactly how far I can drive on $50 with my given inputs. The miles per kWh is solid and can be backed up with Teslafi. I thought my electricity cost was solid but clearly its not.

I also agree that I wouldn't be on a rate plan without an EV and that changes the equation. Luckily GA Power offers a website where I can compare my bill on and off the EV rate, so I will play around with that and think about this some more. Thank you all for the input!

 

[snorp]

The whole house is averaging 12.17 cents, but let's grant that the OP claims only to charge the *Tesla* with "SuperOffPeak" electricity, so the original claim of 1¢/kWh is still plausible. Even if taxes tripled that rate it's still fantastic.

I don't understand what it means to have asterisks around Tesla and why super off peak is in quotes?

 

[Harvey Danger]

Asterisks are for emphasis, not sarcasm, I could have just used bold font, only trying to distinguish between the electricity going into the car vs all the other usage. Quotes are literally for quotation, not sarcasm, since that's the name of the rate the utility uses in the billing statement. Basically I'm supporting your thesis that you pay a low rate even if the title of the thread somewhat overstates the case.

 

[snorp]

Thank you for explaining to me! I truly didn’t understand.

It does appear that my thread title is overstated the more I dig into this, but by how much I don’t know. I’ll get to a peer reviewed defendable number.

 

[Harvey Danger]

That's the Internet for you.

I made the mistake of signing up for reddit recently, and that's a world that trains you to make a point in as few keystrokes as possible. I guess I've lost the capacity for nuance or any of the other niceties that used to accompany collegial discussions like these.

Back to the topic at hand, I'm with dmurphy, the main talking point I fall back to during cocktail party discussions of EV vs ICE 'fuel' costs is a ratio somewhere between 1:4 and 1:2 . If you're doing better than that, I'm happy to hear how it's done.