Idle Fee

[Marty3SR+]

I don't use superchargers that much, normally. But lately, my son has been driving the car about 100 miles roundtrip, so we sometimes run low. I went to the nearby supercharger, which was only about half full. I got the notification that it set the limit to 80%, but I didn't even know what that meant at first - was it 80% charge speed, or 80% total? I assumed it must be 80% total, and set it back to 85%. There was never another car within 5 spaces of mine, and I was in the car, so if it filled up, I could have stopped it.

It didn't slow down past 80% at all, btw.

I think this is not really fair of Tesla to do this unless it's really at full capacity rather than 50%. It is effectively reducing the advertised range for the car. 80% for my car is about 190 miles or less. If I drive close to 200 miles/week, and planned on charging once a week at a supercharger, this might have a big impact. And navigation doesn't enter into the equation at all for this use case.

 

[Rocky_H]

I got the notification that it set the limit to 80%, but I didn't even know what that meant at first - was it 80% charge speed, or 80% total?

Yeah, it's the limit of fullness.

There was never another car within 5 spaces of mine

Yeah, it's not directly about sharing or "next to" or things like that. It's about frequency of turnover. When they say it is a "high usage" location, they mean that it has been showing a pretty steady high level of flow of cars coming and going for a while, so it might fill up on short notice.

It didn't slow down past 80% at all, btw.

set it back to 85%

Yes, because you said right here, you raised the limit back up so it wasn't at 80% anymore. That's a stopping point, not a slowing thing.

I think this is not really fair of Tesla

...to encourage more efficient usage of the Supercharging infrastructure? Why, pray tell, not? That is to give good reminders of courteous usage so the experience is better for everyone.

It is effectively reducing the advertised range for the car.

No, it is not! If they blocked you from overriding it and raising the limit, then there would be a problem. But that's not true, so it's not limiting you or anyone. I've been at a couple of locations where it did that. One of them was in Tremonton, UT of all places. Well yeah, it high usage, because EVERYONE has to use that spot to get through I-84 from Utah to Idaho. But making it from Tremonton to Twin Falls, ID is not very reasonable on only 80%, so I raised it back up to 100%. No biggie.

It is intended to be a nudge or reminder that in a lot of places, you may be better off to just move along to free up the spot and not need to fill up really high all the time.

 

[Ciaopec]

I don't use superchargers that much, normally. But lately, my son has been driving the car about 100 miles roundtrip, so we sometimes run low. I went to the nearby supercharger, which was only about half full. I got the notification that it set the limit to 80%, but I didn't even know what that meant at first - was it 80% charge speed, or 80% total? I assumed it must be 80% total, and set it back to 85%. There was never another car within 5 spaces of mine, and I was in the car, so if it filled up, I could have stopped it.

It didn't slow down past 80% at all, btw.

I think this is not really fair of Tesla to do this unless it's really at full capacity rather than 50%. It is effectively reducing the advertised range for the car. 80% for my car is about 190 miles or less. If I drive close to 200 miles/week, and planned on charging once a week at a supercharger, this might have a big impact. And navigation doesn't enter into the equation at all for this use case.

Sometimes the Tesla system to keep track of open spots and high use superchargers lags a bit. Several cars could have departed within the last 5 minutes but the system thinks they are still there. Is there another supercharge close to where he drives? Use it as well and just fill to 50% it's faster. How often has this happened. The message, if you read it says reset charge level if needed; it doesn't say you cannot charge past 80%.
Maybe you'll have to charge more than once a week if you're that uncomfortable with the range.

 

[Marty3SR+]

Sometimes the Tesla system to keep track of open spots and high use superchargers lags a bit. Several cars could have departed within the last 5 minutes but the system thinks they are still there. Is there another supercharge close to where he drives? Use it as well and just fill to 50% it's faster.

Well, it's even faster to fill to 25%. Twice as fast, to be exact. I'd say it's pretty damn close to 5/8 the time for 50%; the rate didn't change. I don't think it slows down on my car until maybe 90%

How often has this happened. The message, if you read it says reset charge level if needed; it doesn't say you cannot charge past 80%.
Maybe you'll have to charge more than once a week if you're that uncomfortable with the range.

Don't build your pedestals so high. It's just that much worse if they collapse one day.

 

[Ciaopec]

????????

Well, it's even faster to fill to 25%. Twice as fast, to be exact. I'd say it's pretty damn close to 5/8 the time for 50%; the rate didn't change. I don't think it slows down on my car until maybe 90%

Don't build your pedestals so high. It's just that much worse if they collapse one day.

????????????

 

[Oldrocky]

That didn't happen in my case because in those instances, I stayed in the car.

I had a "this is your one free pass" happen yesterday. I left the car long enough to go to the
bathroom and make one quick purchase at Home Depot. The charge could not have been on
'idle' for more than 5 minutes, if that. And the charger wasn't full - ever - at least not when I
got there and not when I left.
I, for one, think that the idle fees are too "aggressive" ... we are more likely to get them
than we should. If there are open spots it should never hit us with an idle charge. And if
a spot opens up it should stop charging the idle fees.
And the idle fees are much higher than I think they should be. I get it that they are to
make sure we vacate as soon as possible ... but they are still too high (and too aggressive
in terms of how long we can sit idle before they kick in and when there are open spaces).
- Jim in the PNW

 

[roblab]

If one happened to pull in to get gas at a gas station and "fell asleep", blocking other users (or not), someone would probably come knocking on a window and tell you to move it. Why is it different? Tesla allows you to wander off and sends notifications to your phone that your charge is nearly complete, sooo, if you decide to ignore this, whose fault is it? My daughter pulled into a charger at 3 AM and fell asleep. She woke up at 6. She will get charged idle fees. That's the rules, and when you break the rules. you pay the fine. The only bad part is she was driving MY car. I ought to charge her double, but her mom says we should pay. Why? She's 45. Grow up and pay up and learn the lesson.

As for Tesla being aggressive, some of us might think some folks are too careless, don't care, won't check. A fine is the only way to get some people's attention. And even then, they don't get it, thinking they can go off to eat and leave their car blocking a charger. You've been notified.

 

[Oldrocky]

Roblab,
I agree with the general concepts behind what you are saying - it's the application of the rules
that I find "aggressive". If there is an empty charger station - then no idle fees (is my opinion) -
I don't care how long. Heck, Tesla could actually 'know' that someone is probably waiting if
they wanted to using already available info/technology. Said another way - there is a view
that is about "added revenue" and there is a view that is "let's encourage people to not stay
at a charger station longer than they need to" ... it's the balance between them (when to
charge for idle time - and how much) that is the sticking point.
- Jim in the PNW

 

[Pcm888usa]

Roblab,
I agree with the general concepts behind what you are saying - it's the application of the rules
that I find "aggressive". If there is an empty charger station - then no idle fees (is my opinion) -
I don't care how long. Heck, Tesla could actually 'know' that someone is probably waiting if
they wanted to using already available info/technology. Said another way - there is a view
that is about "added revenue" and there is a view that is "let's encourage people to not stay
at a charger station longer than they need to" ... it's the balance between them (when to
charge for idle time - and how much) that is the sticking point.
- Jim in the PNW

It is a source of revenue. Somehow they need to fund all the Superchargers all over the country. They need some enforcement to prevent people from hoarding the stall after charging is complete. My opinion is that can give a bit longer grace period before turning on the meter. The idea of when there is empty stall, no idle fee will encourage hoarding. After charging complete, move your car is a courtesy to your fellow Tesla owners also. Don't let the car sit idle.

 

[Resist]

If one happened to pull in to get gas at a gas station and "fell asleep", blocking other users (or not), someone would probably come knocking on a window and tell you to move it. Why is it different? Tesla allows you to wander off and sends notifications to your phone that your charge is nearly complete, sooo, if you decide to ignore this, whose fault is it? My daughter pulled into a charger at 3 AM and fell asleep. She woke up at 6. She will get charged idle fees. That's the rules, and when you break the rules. you pay the fine. The only bad part is she was driving MY car. I ought to charge her double, but her mom says we should pay. Why? She's 45. Grow up and pay up and learn the lesson.

As for Tesla being aggressive, some of us might think some folks are too careless, don't care, won't check. A fine is the only way to get some people's attention. And even then, they don't get it, thinking they can go off to eat and leave their car blocking a charger. You've been notified.

The difference is that you are assuming the person is seeing the text. Any number of things could happen as to why the text wasn't seen in time. Tesla should in my opinion maybe give us a monthly pass or maybe if you use the Supercharger network often you get so many free passes. Granted this idle fee should go away once there are as many charging stations as there are gas stations, but that won't happen for a long, long, long time. But we really do need a way to dispute the charge for unusual circumstances, like you lost your phone, you were robbed, you had a medical emergency because 5 minutes isn't much time when Tesla puts the majority of the stations near shopping or food and then they've increased the charging speeds. When I got my Idle Fee I was inside a Tesla Service Center that happens to have Superchargers and I was talking to the sales rep about a Model Y and was literally within feet from my car but didn't notice the notification on my phone because I knew I'd have plenty of time because I set my car to charge to 100%, yet it stopped way early.

But yeah, I got my one free pass for that event but still getting only one pass for this car's life seems ridiculous. It's not like Tesla needs the money from this source as they've already doubled the Supercharger prices, at least in my area.

 

[drtimhill]

I agree with the general concepts behind what you are saying - it's the application of the rules
that I find "aggressive". If there is an empty charger station - then no idle fees (is my opinion) -

The trouble is that doesnt take into account how humans react to these things. Say you have an SC location that rarely fills up. Regular users will get used to that, and since they never get idle fees, get in the habit of going off to dinner leaving the car there way longer than needed to charge ("because this SC location NEVER fills up!"). So gradually the location DOES fill up -- with more and more idle cars. Until suddenly it IS full up. And then everyone who is used to being able to leave the car there as long as they want will suddenly get idle fee warnings, and get mad because their dinner etc is interrupted.

Meantime a Tesla turns up and has to wait 5-10 mins (or more) until someone comes along and moves their car. So the end result is more waiting for charger space and way less utilization of the chargers.

 

[house9]

if you decide to ignore this, whose fault is it? My daughter pulled into a charger at 3 AM and fell asleep. She woke up at 6. She will get charged idle fees. That's the rules

Sounds like she was too tired to drive I would be very glad to pay those idle fees.

 

[Exelion]

But I can't wait for the day when there are enough Supercharger stations to go around so idle fees won't have to exist.

As much as I hope that is coming soon, I don’t think it will unless more effort is put into charging infrastructure than selling cars.

The amount of electric cars sold every month is much more than the amount of charging station installed. This applies to both Teslas & other electrics vehicles.

Idle fees are here to stay….for at least in the near future.

 

[Resist]

As much as I hope that is coming soon, I don’t think it will unless more effort is put into charging infrastructure than selling cars.

The amount of electric cars sold every month is much more than the amount of charging station installed. This applies to both Teslas & other electrics vehicles.

Idle fees are here to stay….for at least in the near future.

I agree, we are decades away from having more charging stations than gas stations. Which is so sad because the transition could happen much sooner.

 

[Ciaopec]

Idle fees are apparently having the desired effect. Everyone seems to be aware of them and talking about them. Those that aren't aware will get the wake up call with the one free pass. Beyond that why allow endless excuses about why additional fees shouldn't apply to me: the dog ate my home work; had to wait in line for two hours at Starbucks; didn't realize knee replacement would take so long; ad infinitum; ad nauseum.
I know I've had at least one and no one waived my fee; maybe two. But now I pay attention and I am also aware of the notes that pop up about high use superchargers that will automatically adjust the max charge to 80%. So, unpopular as they may seem and as unpopular as my stance may be, I'm all for them.

 

[drtimhill]

I agree, we are decades away from having more charging stations than gas stations. Which is so sad because the transition could happen much sooner.

What will be much more interesting is when those gas stations start closing as the number of ICE cars starts to ease down. Still some time off, but will certainly be an indicator of EV progress. If I owned a gas station right now I'd be putting an EV charger in as well.

 

[Pcm888usa]

What will be much more interesting is when those gas stations start closing as the number of ICE cars starts to ease down. Still some time off, but will certainly be an indicator of EV progress. If I owned a gas station right now I'd be putting an EV charger in as well.

Gas stations do not have to close. All they need is to add Supercharging stalls. Take away the free water and air stations and replace them with one or two charging. This will ease the range anxiety greatly.

 

[Exelion]

Gas stations do not have to close. All they need is to add Supercharging stalls. Take away the free water and air stations and replace them with one or two charging.

This is true. If we look at gas stations more as “a stop for motorists” than strictly a “gasoline fill up station” then we can change what they offer without having to remove them entirely. They still have much to offer other than gasoline. I think (could be wrong on this) they profit more from “other things” than the gas they sell.

I agree with the water removal but not the air-EV’s still need air in their tires. And lower psi contributes to range loss-they’re more sensitive to that than ICE vehicles.

A few more DCFC stalls at a gas station can easily be done, not as much permits as large underground gasoline tanks.

Selling more fast food, and most importantly, adding & enlarging restrooms.

 

[Pcm888usa]

This is true. If we look at gas stations more as “a stop for motorists” than strictly a “gasoline fill up station” then we can change what they offer without having to remove them entirely. They still have much to offer other than gasoline. I think (could be wrong on this) they profit more from “other things” than the gas they sell.

I agree with the water removal but not the air-EV’s still need air in their tires. And lower psi contributes to range loss-they’re more sensitive to that than ICE vehicles.

A few more DCFC stalls at a gas station can easily be done, not as much permits as large underground gasoline tanks.

Selling more fast food, and most importantly, adding & enlarging restrooms.

Not to mention they could replace your flat while the nearest SC is 10's of miles away.

 

[Rocky_H]

And the charger wasn't full - ever - at least not when I
got there and not when I left.

It's not about whether it's totally full. You know there is a condition when idle fees are not active, right?

If there are open spots it should never hit us with an idle charge. And if
a spot opens up it should stop charging the idle fees.

You are making some assumptions that do not really work well in the practical world. You suggest right here that if there is as little as one single stall not currently being used, then there should not be any idle fees. Have you thought why a stall might not be in use?

Have you been to one of those where the little black plastic nubbin from someone's charge port was broken off and stuck inside the plug handle, so it could not plug into anyone's car? I have. That stall will always show as not being used, even if all of the other stalls are full and there are 20 cars in line waiting. ...but you think there shouldn't be idle fees active then.

Or did you see the thread where some EV-hating a-hole used some kind of quick drying epoxy goop to fill the holes in a few of the charge handles so they were ruined and couldn't be used? I did. Those stalls would be unused, and cars could be waiting.

Or you know how the V2 sites share the A and B sides, with reduced power? If people are overstaying and blocking stalls, you can't see which cars are still charging or which are done, so people will have to guess and use a paired one and may be stuck with a low charge rate where they really shouldn't have to.

That last one is the reason why Tesla set the idle policy where they did. If the station is LESS THAN HALF in use, there are no idle fees. If it is half or more used, then the idle fees are on to try to encourage that turnover so people shouldn't have to unnecessarily share power.