That has pretty much always been the case with my 2013 S 85 until last year when they reduced the maximum rate it could charge at (I now have an X LR).
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If there was a 100 mile range upgrade what would you be willing to pay?
- Thread starter Austindude
- Start date
Unless you're towing a trailer, traveling on state highways, live in an area with 85 mph speed limits, etc. Yes, a lot of it is old school thinking (particularly around town), but I've had a lot of people say things like: I want to drive from Dallas to Houston without stopping the way I can in my XX, and I want to drive the speed limit or 5 mph faster (5 mph faster means 90 mph). I don't believe any current Tesla can do that. Driving from Dallas to Houston is common around here.Yes this. I’ve called it the gas paradigm vs the EV paradigm, but tomato / tomato. It is the old way of thinking (fill up, drive until almost empty, rinse and repeat) that is so engrained in everyone’s minds it is challenging for them to believe there might be another way. It’s neat when I explain this to people and sometimes I see a look come across their face that makes me realize the light bulb just came on. “Wait, so I DON’T have to visit the gas station each week.”
SammichLover
Banned
Hogwash.
1) The only way "Houston to Dallas" isn't a thing is if you're picking particular points within these large areas. Core to core it is only 240 miles.
2) And fueling up the ICE somewhere still happens for these trips. "Without stopping" is a crock of *sugar* word game.
EDIT: 2.1) Dallas to Houston it has to get even sillier on parsing, with the North Houston SC there. That doesn't count as being at the "end"?
3) Legalish 88MPH down I10 is indeed something I have done, more than once (and since it is West Texas, on occasion w/wind). Easily and comfortably.
4) Range on I45 Dallas-Houston tends to be much better than you'd normally expect at speeds because you can readily be drafting at high speeds due what typical traffic is like.
Towing a LARGE trailer with an X is certainly an issue, though.
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EnrgyNDpndnce
Member
Define common. Surely not daily. Weekly perhaps, even that would seem extreme. Monthly or maybe every other month, ok that might be typical. So to that person I would say “what is your time worth?” Because in this car you can avoid the once a week (or more) gas fill up that takes ~ 5 minutes so that saves you at least 20 minutes per month. Then once a month on that Big D to Houston drive you might need a 10 minute supercharger stop each way, so that’s a wash at best and may actually save you a bit of time on balance since many people need gas more than once a week. Now that logic may not work for some people, and that’s ok. Not everyone is ready to drive the future today, not everyone is a good fit, many are scared of change. They’ll come around eventually.
Towing a trailer is a different story. But in my experience, every vehicle has significantly lower range while towing a trailer.
Common means a lot of people do it (based on my experience showing the car over the last seven years). I suspect most of them drove pickups or SUVs, many of which have long range. And yes, I do the what is your time worth bit, but many seem to separate trips from daily.
I'd like to see Compact Removable battery packs that can be added or subtracted (and left home) based on need for the current day. Battery packs left behind can be charged while you are out driving that day. For trips - take the max. For the day's grocery run or short commute - take the least.
Increase speed and save on the tires.
Increase speed and save on the tires.
SammichLover
Banned
Sure, they claim that. With what actual details? If you dig into that there are all sorts of details that get glossed over because they don't think about it, it is just what "has to be done". With a big helping of "this is how I've done things before with the old tool, so if the new tool doesn't work the same way then it can't possibly achieve the actual underlying goal".
With an Model S 85. Even brand new that would be very tight. And now with an LR why aren't you doing it? Where exactly do you live? If you can't drive even all the way from say Katy to the Italy SC well above posted limit with your LR that's serious weirdness. Personally I'd probably still stop at Waco for a little bump and stretch my legs, because you have to stop somewhere (same as ICE) and sets the stage for getting around in town. And the value, the quality of life and actual trip time, of a leg stretch has really been brought home to me over the last couple years.
Or you're talking something like Pearland and Flower Mound are the two "required" ends?
Of course there is a certain distance window where there's a discontinuity if you focus only on trips and narrow the evaluation window to exclude fueling at the ends. But longer and the apparent ICE advantage disappears, shorter and it isn't there either, and as @EnrgyNDpndnce laid out if you look at overall vehicle usage it turns on its head.
EDIT: And the thriving existence of Bucee's in Martinville underscores just how much this doesn't actually happen with ICE.
One of our former ICE vehicles had a huge tank range. 2012 Camry Hybrid, something crazy like 600 miles if you drove near posted limits. I don't miss it for driving between those two cities. Not. One. Bit.
Now if I was in a much colder climate, or I regularly towed a larger trailer, that'd be something different.
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I’d be willing to cough up for a range upgrade as long as it also included better passing acceleration. Sure, from a dig, the Model 3 Performance is pretty hard to beat. But get it on the freeway (and at speed), and passing performance is reduced to just “good.” That’s a subjective rating, for sure, and I’m sure a lot of guys are just fine with it. But if I’m ponying up for a “Performance” car, I want performance all the time, not just from a dig.
So if a range upgrade included better at-speed acceleration, yeah, I’d pay up as long as the price/range/performance figures were reasonable.
So if a range upgrade included better at-speed acceleration, yeah, I’d pay up as long as the price/range/performance figures were reasonable.
Yes, the capacitor type battery reserves for at speed passing should be available on the next generation of Teslas.
I said that is what people said they did. I didn't say that was how I drove and I agree that even if the range was 10K miles, I'd still have to stop every 100-150 miles, but 500 miles does appear to be what a large number people want. (I estimate that around 3500 people have sat in the driver's seat of the S, almost all the objections had to do with range). I never actually drove the S from 100% to close to zero, but the numbers indicated that I would get 280 to 320 miles had I done so, based on the wh/mi average and what the usable capacity in kWh of the battery was (numbers I have seen vary). The S was driven all over: Seattle, Thunder Bay, Lincoln, Kansas City (perhaps surprising, I've never actually driven to Houston, but Dallas to Houston was the most common trip people talked about--those that talked about a specific trip). About half the 130K miles on the S were trip miles.Sure, they claim that. With what actual details? If you dig into that there are all sorts of details that get glossed over because they don't think about it, it is just what "has to be done". With a big helping of "this is how I've done things before with the old tool, so if the new tool doesn't work the same way then it can't possibly achieve the actual underlying goal".
With an Model S 85. Even brand new that would be very tight. And now with an LR why aren't you doing it? Where exactly do you live? If you can't drive even all the way from say Katy to the Italy SC well above posted limit with your LR that's serious weirdness. Personally I'd probably still stop at Waco for a little bump and stretch my legs, because you have to stop somewhere (same as ICE) and sets the stage for getting around in town. And the value, the quality of life and actual trip time, of a leg stretch has really been brought home to me over the last couple years.
Or you're talking something like Pearland and Flower Mound are the two "required" ends?
Of course there is a certain distance window where there's a discontinuity if you focus only on trips and narrow the evaluation window to exclude fueling at the ends. But longer and the apparent ICE advantage disappears, shorter and it isn't there either, and as @EnrgyNDpndnce laid out if you look at overall vehicle usage it turns on its head.
EDIT: And the thriving existence of Bucee's in Martinville underscores just how much this doesn't actually happen with ICE.
One of our former ICE vehicles had a huge tank range. 2012 Camry Hybrid, something crazy like 600 miles if you drove near posted limits. I don't miss it for driving between those two cities. Not. One. Bit.
Now if I was in a much colder climate, or I regularly towed a larger trailer, that'd be something different.
A typical day during road tripping is: Start at home with a full battery, stop for 10-15 minutes at the first SC. Stop for lunch at the second SC. Stop for 10-15 minutes at the third SC. Stop for 10-15 minutes at the fourth (there might be a fifth stop if the SCs are close together) Stop at the destination and start the next day with a full battery. Depending upon the distance between the SCs, that gets about 650 miles in a day, which is not tiring. Last year the older cars had their charge rate reduced so charge times doubled, which was quite annoying, but for most of it's life the S filled enough to get to the next charging stop, plus a little extra, in 10-15 minutes.
The X only has a few hundred miles on it so far thanks to CV-19. It was delivered the end of March.
SammichLover
Banned
First; Oops, I misread. I didn't see the "X" on the other line of your profile and, this being the Model 3 forum, I took the second line as a Model 3 RWD LR.
That's a very different experience from road tripping from the Model S, and I expect even the Model X LR though the later is probably somewhere in similar range as my Model 3 D. For starters the Model 3 charges up a lot faster in terms of miles/minute.
First "road trip" I ever did I rolled out of bed, had breakfast and left around 10am. Stopped in Austin for a very quick bump because the full high 200's to Junction was a stretch, and I was new to it all and trying to feel it out. I let it go to 95%+ at Junction while I had a BBQ lunch, then did a "spirited" 200 or so mile loop South through Twisted Sister area and back, during which I made a stop for a refreshment mid way and then another 5 min to take a couple photos of the "road closed" signs I drove around. I learned a lot there, as I had to 'limp' the last 15 miles or so back to Junction at a little below the 75mph posted getting in with 2 miles left on the gauge. Charged up, then I headed by via I10 to Sister Dale and then San Marcos. Had supper when I got home. A hair short of 800 miles on the day, 4 charger stops, some hard driving through curves and hills in there along with the I10 stretchs at > 80MPH, and it felt like I'd just gotten up and did a thing like it was nothing.
That's when I knew it was a total game change for road tripping.
That's a different thing than actual.
Some day we'll see 400 miles of range down in the Model 3 pricing, and it won't be a bad thing. Just not a particularly necessary thing for most of the US (North, especially the center, in winter is the biggest rub). I'm not so sure about the Cybertruck talk, about how real those target ranges will be in practice? The CT will likely need that though given towing is more applicable to it.
That's a very different experience from road tripping from the Model S, and I expect even the Model X LR though the later is probably somewhere in similar range as my Model 3 D. For starters the Model 3 charges up a lot faster in terms of miles/minute.
First "road trip" I ever did I rolled out of bed, had breakfast and left around 10am. Stopped in Austin for a very quick bump because the full high 200's to Junction was a stretch, and I was new to it all and trying to feel it out. I let it go to 95%+ at Junction while I had a BBQ lunch, then did a "spirited" 200 or so mile loop South through Twisted Sister area and back, during which I made a stop for a refreshment mid way and then another 5 min to take a couple photos of the "road closed" signs I drove around. I learned a lot there, as I had to 'limp' the last 15 miles or so back to Junction at a little below the 75mph posted getting in with 2 miles left on the gauge.
Charged up, then I headed by via I10 to Sister Dale and then San Marcos. Had supper when I got home. A hair short of 800 miles on the day, 4 charger stops, some hard driving through curves and hills in there along with the I10 stretchs at > 80MPH, and it felt like I'd just gotten up and did a thing like it was nothing.That's when I knew it was a total game change for road tripping.
It is what a large number of ICE drivers think they do, and a large number claim they want.
That's a different thing than actual.
Some day we'll see 400 miles of range down in the Model 3 pricing, and it won't be a bad thing. Just not a particularly necessary thing for most of the US (North, especially the center, in winter is the biggest rub). I'm not so sure about the Cybertruck talk, about how real those target ranges will be in practice? The CT will likely need that though given towing is more applicable to it.
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Speaking as a rural resident (nearest interstate is 3 hours away), the choice isn't between spending more time charging vs gassing for long trips, it's between getting there and not. We have a 3D and ICE truck. I LOVE the 3 and take it everywhere I can. If my wife and I want to go to Santa Fe for the weekend and bring our bikes, we take the ICE truck. You might be able to make it there with a tailwind, but getting back is impossible in the 3 with elevation gain and against the constant headwind. There are no charging options at all along the route, let alone SC's. In winter, more routes are iffy.
I recognize the vast majority live in places where SC's aren't in short supply, but I would trade in my 3 for one with a significant range upgrade in a heartbeat. Or, I'd be perfectly happy with the 3's range if there were more SC's within range. It's still worth it to drive a 3 for daily and routes with SC's, but you need an ICE too for now.
I recognize the vast majority live in places where SC's aren't in short supply, but I would trade in my 3 for one with a significant range upgrade in a heartbeat. Or, I'd be perfectly happy with the 3's range if there were more SC's within range. It's still worth it to drive a 3 for daily and routes with SC's, but you need an ICE too for now.
Smaller and lighter will certainly get better Wh/mi so the time it takes to get X miles on a 3 or Y will be faster. One thing about any Tesla is that the lack of engine vibration reduces the fatigue on a long drive significantly. The 650 miles per day that I usually do leaves a lot of time to do things in the evening. I've also done long distance days e.g. over 1000 miles, but those are basically just get to where you need to go type trips. Usually I like to enjoy the journey (often the journey is the best part of the trip).
SammichLover
Banned
True the Western interior states still have meaningful holes in the SC net (though passing through now is now pretty viable), and L2 remains very sparse since civilization is sparse. There's power there, and with gear and a friend letting you access their electrical panel you could get through, but that's rugged pioneering stuff rather than "general public ready". You can get in and out of a lot of it with the nominal 300+ ranges, but it isn't seamless out there yet. Similar situation in West AK/East edge of OK and still the case, though actively closing, in MT/WY/ND.
ElectricIAC
Good-Natured Rascal
Having been the near-victim of range exhaustion on one of the bigger gaps in the supercharger network, I beg to differ. (Trinidad, CO to Amarillo, TX —227mi)
Truth be told I would at least be interested in a PTC-Heat pump retrofit if new denser battery proved to be too prohibitive. I am not impressed with the continuing decontenting of the Model 3/Y.
SammichLover
Banned
You need to gird yourself and drive appropriately if you're going to do a shortcut jump between different branches of the network like that.
I'm definitely not saying "don't", because I've done further than that, but they can be tight under less than ideal conditions.P.S. Was it in the other direction of travel? Or was this winter? Because headed South you get a roughly 8% battery advantage from elevation drop.
ElectricIAC
Good-Natured Rascal
Eastbound and downhill in Winter but followed every speed suggestion. Started at 94% and pulled in at 0%.You need to gird and drive appropriately yourself if you're going to do a shortcut jump between branches of the network like that.
P.S. Was it in the other direction of travel? Or was this winter? Because headed South you get a roughly 8% battery advantage from elevation drop.
Was on track to arrive with ~10% but once we were past our safety point to detour to a destination charger in Dumas encountered medium sleet and headwinds which ate up every last bit of margin.
SammichLover
Banned
Definitely should have put in more than that when making a big leap in cold weather....I guess now you know that too. - signed Cptn Obvious
I've found Nav's estimates are rock solid above about 45-50F, the further below that you get the more overshoot on optimistic side it gives. At least that was the case a year ago, I did not do enough cold driving long distance this winter to give a proper evaluation but the bit I did do suggested it has improved at least somewhat.
Ugg, yeah, that'll make things harder. One thing making large jumps is we have to watch ahead a lot closer for weather. I got caught in rain once along the Rockies, it had been too low to show up on radar. But I knew from the forecast it was possible, just trusted the radar that I was going to dodge the system, so that was kinda on me that I had to go to Plan B L2 stop.
What was the outside temp?
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