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PJF000

Member
Dec 26, 2015
696
408
Australia
Or we could phase out fossil fuel use as rapidly as possible (the root cause of the problem), since that can be done much faster than changing the global profile of population growth.
Well, that would certainly (maybe) stop all the naysayers predictions of doom and gloom, and just leave us with the "I told you so" brigade.
So, who is going to be first and to what degree? Driving a Tesla is, and going solar is only a token. What about refusing to fly, ditching the mobile phone, riding a push bike instead of driving (everywhere), eating whole raw food and definitely no packaged or processed foods, living in a home (shelter) that has zero impact on carbon emissions and made of materials which had no carbon emissions in their formation.
Who determines the degree? The individual, the state, a world body? Who enforces the in-actions? Or do we just do what we as individuals justify to ourselves that we are doing enough and our fair share.
 

EcoCloudIT

Active Member
Aug 24, 2015
1,151
412
Melbourne, VIC
Well, that would certainly (maybe) stop all the naysayers predictions of doom and gloom, and just leave us with the "I told you so" brigade.
So, who is going to be first and to what degree? Driving a Tesla is, and going solar is only a token. What about refusing to fly, ditching the mobile phone, riding a push bike instead of driving (everywhere), eating whole raw food and definitely no packaged or processed foods, living in a home (shelter) that has zero impact on carbon emissions and made of materials which had no carbon emissions in their formation.
Who determines the degree? The individual, the state, a world body? Who enforces the in-actions? Or do we just do what we as individuals justify to ourselves that we are doing enough and our fair share.

"eating whole raw food and definitely no packaged or processed foods", or the elephant in the room: don't eat animals if you're serious about the environment/climate change.
 
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OzVic

Member
Jun 20, 2019
129
153
Australia
<snip> ... In fact the entire hysteria and pseudo religion over this climate warming debate astounds me. ... I repeat, the problem is too many humans. <snip>

Ah, you are so much smarter than all those scientists. You have the solution. Your intellect astounds me! You have it solved in your head but no-one is listening! Shame on the world!

In the meantime maybe you should read this:

Dunning-Kruger Effect: Why Incompetent People Think They Are Superior

Enjoyed this from a similar article:

"So what explains this psychological effect? Are some people simply too dense, to be blunt, to know how dim-witted they are?"

as it describes me to a T.
 
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paulp

Active Member
Jul 23, 2015
2,680
1,221
Adelaide, Australia
There was certainly a time when that was the popular view, but it wasn’t evidence based, apart from looking at the horizon and thinking it looked pretty flat. The lack of a process at the time of designing repeatable experiments to test hypotheses, and the inability to measure physical phenomena accurately with unbiased instrumentation means conclusions at time the earth was flat was not really “science” but faith.
Time is a funny thing. In 20 years the majority will look back at petrol cars and exclaim ‘what were we thinking’. At the time the best minds made the best cars with professionally engineered engines to maximise efficiency. It was the best that was known at the time.
Science evolves. Always has. New methods become available through new discoveries. Suggesting all science now is correct and fully maximised is proven in history to always be under-maximised. Once again I accept climate change and like to think I do my bit, but there is no way science fully understands it. History tells us thats highly improbable. Novel viruses show that humans have not conquered all knowledge.
 
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Techno-phile

S100D, P3D- in garage
Nov 13, 2014
342
461
Perth, Australia
Or we could phase out fossil fuel use as rapidly as possible (the root cause of the problem), since that can be done much faster than changing the global profile of population growth.

Yes we should definitely continue to do this. But I don't think we have nearly enough battery manufacture to stabilise grids with a high percentage of renewables, let alone to back up renewable power to cover the evening peak when the sun goes down.
All car manufacturers are scrambling to buy battery production - thank goodness Elon foresaw the shortage some time ago.

UK and France don't rely on Coal because they have Nuclear power, so the European grid can continue to add renewables. But who else can?
AEMOs new rules requiring asynchronous generators to be responsible for grid stabilisation and a bit of backup for their supply are causing projects to be delayed or cancelled, since they are no longer economic.

"Vostock" said:
So having trashed one planet we should have a crack at trashing a second?

Earth will survive and may be better off without us. Plants will take over in a warm CO2 rich environment.
Humans may not survive, which is only a shame in the grand scheme of things if our Knowledge dies with us. Like Elon I was brought up on Azimov Foundation series and Hitch Hikers guide to the Galaxy.
 

Dborn

Confirmed
Aug 26, 2011
2,715
357
Sydney, Australia
OK, Vostok. What Practical solution do you propose? Go back to the Stone Age? Every single green proposal still produces emissions in its execution including our cars. You have provided heaps of references, so I guess you have pulled together the information gleaned from them.
I assume No agriculture, no transportation , no manufacturing of anything, no mining, no cooking, simply subsistence existing since I would not call that life style “living”. May as well give up now and start pushing up daisy’s. Oh wait, who is going to bury us as we cant have cremations either. cant manufacture the spades, since there is no mining tree harvesting or metal smelting. Also no way to transport the spades to the undertakers. Hmm.
You do, of course realize that for any figures you produce there will be a contra set of figures. Just depends which set you choose to believe. Take a recognized climate scientist like Tim Flannery. His predictions presumably based on REAL knowledge have really come to pass, not. Just one tiny example of what I am getting at. I don’t have the time to troll the internet to pull up figures. You clearly do and good luck to you. I refuse to be caught up in the hysteria. My choice. I am not asking you or anyone else to join me. I have NOT denied the climate is changing. It is. But it is a damn sight more complex than human emissions. Just how much was poured into the atmosphere due to our fuel overload/drought based bushfires this season? Californias? Amazonia? The drought was the Indian Ocean dipole and in other times the El Niño La Niña effect, neither of which is materially affected by co2 in the air. Anyone who claims to be able to measure that accurately is just whistling in the wind and relying on PhD behind their name. Ditto with volcanic emission. A single volcano shut down much of Europe for months based in Iceland. That could be accurately measured? You gotta be kidding! Vehicles is a bit different. You can stick measuring instruments up tail pipes.
I am not, I repeat, trying to convince you or anyone else. You know what we used to say at uni? A specialist is someone who knows more and more about less and less until he knows everything about nothing!
Unfortunately common sense is not common any longer.
 
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Vostok

Active Member
Jul 1, 2017
1,395
1,492
Sydney
Science evolves. Always has. New methods become available through new discoveries. Suggesting all science now is correct and fully maximised is proven in history to always be under-maximised. Once again I accept climate change and like to think I do my bit, but there is no way science fully understands it. History tells us thats highly improbable. Novel viruses show that humans have not conquered all knowledge.
Never suggested that “all science” is now correct, but on this particular issue, it is rather overwhelming, and independently arrived at by thousands of scientists examining a whole range of extremely diverse physical phenomena. The odds that changes in all these independent physical phenomena point to the same cause purely through random chance rather than causation is rather small, if not vanishingly small.

So, we have to make decisions now based on the best available evidence at this time.

The worst case, if all this science is wrong, but we still act to eliminate fossil fuels and are successful in doing so, is we end up with a cleaner planet (less particulate and other pollution, less noxious gases, fewer scarred landscapes from coal mining and oil drilling, etc) at the cost of a fraction of a percentage point of GDP and some economic transition challenges which, given enough planning time and preparation, should be manageable.

But the worst case, if all this science is right, but we do nothing, or not enough, is the end of life on this planet as we currently know it.

The risk management quadrant in this case is clear what course of action we should take.
 

Vostok

Active Member
Jul 1, 2017
1,395
1,492
Sydney
OK, Vostok. What Practical solution do you propose? Go back to the Stone Age?
This is an extremely common retort - the only solution is the Stone Age. That’s just an extremism in another form.

This is not about being perfect or going back to the stone age but progressively getting better. Lots of small actions can magnify and multiply, start “unblocking” the bigger problems, and accelerate the transition towards something that looks much better than what we have now.

If you are genuinely interested on the possible pathways for pretty much every challenge we face in this issue, there’s lots of good reading available:

10 Solutions for Climate Change
Climate Solutions
Global Warming Solutions
Managing Global Warming | ScienceDirect
Global Warming Solutions

I assume No agriculture, no transportation , no manufacturing of anything, no mining, no cooking, simply subsistence existing since I would not call that life style “living”.
This “all or nothing” nonsense is what Alan Jones, Andrew Bolt and all the usual suspects trot out to scare people and create a false choice.

All those thing have their own planet-impacting challenges, but nothing quite as immediate and of global-extinction potential as runaway CO2 emissions.

You do, of course realize that for any figures you produce there will be a contra set of figures.
Of course, that’s how science works. And those contra set of figures are almost always shown to be wrong in some way, or based on poor or non-science, or irrelevant, and consequently debunked. But of course, that never stops them being trotting out again. Repeatedly.

Every issue you have raised so far has been explained and/or debunked many times. Do you seriously think that any of these issues that you, or any sceptic or denier have raised, have never been thought about or assessed by scientists? Factored in if concluded to be relevant, and discarded if not?

Just because you haven’t attempted to inform yourself as to how we measure or estimate emissions from bushfires (the recent bushfire emissions have already been estimated based on size of the area burnt and the density of trees, all of which can be accurately measured from satellite measurement and imagery), or volcanic emissions (the volume and duration of plumes can be measured, as can their chemical composition), or anything else you’ve mentioned, doesn’t mean it’s not possible.

https://www.global-greenhouse-warming.com/measuring-volcanic-emissions.html
Measuring Volcanic Emissions from Space

If you want to know how science measures these and other things, then start reading more, going to reputable scientific sites, and adopt a mindset of a willingness to learn.

As much as I might like doing the googling for you, at some point you need to take responsibility for seeking the answers to your own questions if you genuinely want to know about and understand this issue.
 

paulp

Active Member
Jul 23, 2015
2,680
1,221
Adelaide, Australia
Never suggested that “all science” is now correct, but on this particular issue, it is rather overwhelming, and independently arrived at by thousands of scientists examining a whole range of extremely diverse physical phenomena. The odds that changes in all these independent physical phenomena point to the same cause purely through random chance rather than causation is rather small, if not vanishingly small.

So, we have to make decisions now based on the best available evidence at this time.

The worst case, if all this science is wrong, but we still act to eliminate fossil fuels and are successful in doing so, is we end up with a cleaner planet (less particulate and other pollution, less noxious gases, fewer scarred landscapes from coal mining and oil drilling, etc) at the cost of a fraction of a percentage point of GDP and some economic transition challenges which, given enough planning time and preparation, should be manageable.

But the worst case, if all this science is right, but we do nothing, or not enough, is the end of life on this planet as we currently know it.

The risk management quadrant in this case is clear what course of action we should take.
I absolutely agree we should all be acting in whatever way we can to create a better environment. Everyone on here that is a tesla owner is already doing that. Suggest many dont realise, which its likley the most effective method of cleaning up the planet.
Pluto used to be a planet. The best scientists, thousands of them....fairly much all of them, told us pluto was a planet. Then it all changed in 2006. Not saying the science on climate change is right or wrong, i just dont give it a whole load of credibility based on human history. In the meantime I’ll keep doing my part to minimise my impact and keep my air clean. My home and city transportation are now operationally carbon positive. It’s not that hard to achieve, and no lifestyle compromises required.
 
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Dborn

Confirmed
Aug 26, 2011
2,715
357
Sydney, Australia
I absolutely agree we should all be acting in whatever way we can to create a better environment. Everyone on here that is a tesla owner is already doing that. Suggest many dont realise, which its likley the most effective method of cleaning up the planet.
Pluto used to be a planet. The best scientists, thousands of them....fairly much all of them, told us pluto was a planet. Then it all changed in 2006. Not saying the science on climate change is right or wrong, i just dont give it a whole load of credibility based on human history. In the meantime I’ll keep doing my part to minimise my impact and keep my air clean. My home and city transportation are now operationally carbon positive. It’s not that hard to achieve, and no lifestyle compromises required.
Agree with you. Our efforts will clean up smog and move the pollution to remote areas such as where the power plants are located. That is a good thing for all of us. Vostok, you really do need to eliminate pretty much all pollution if the lofty goal of saving the planet is to be achieved. Mentioning Bolt, Jones et al merely shows you, in your own way have also closed off and are fully convinced you are right and everyone else wrong. Typical of a mind set of the likes of Bandt di Natale et al. However 1 in 10 do vote for that execrable mob. You see, it cuts both ways. I sit neatly in the middle tending right. Paulp i agree with you.
 

EcoCloudIT

Active Member
Aug 24, 2015
1,151
412
Melbourne, VIC
This is an extremely common retort - the only solution is the Stone Age. That’s just an extremism in another form.

This is not about being perfect or going back to the stone age but progressively getting better. Lots of small actions can magnify and multiply, start “unblocking” the bigger problems, and accelerate the transition towards something that looks much better than what we have now.

If you are genuinely interested on the possible pathways for pretty much every challenge we face in this issue, there’s lots of good reading available:

10 Solutions for Climate Change
Climate Solutions
Global Warming Solutions
Managing Global Warming | ScienceDirect
Global Warming Solutions


This “all or nothing” nonsense is what Alan Jones, Andrew Bolt and all the usual suspects trot out to scare people and create a false choice.

All those thing have their own planet-impacting challenges, but nothing quite as immediate and of global-extinction potential as runaway CO2 emissions.


Of course, that’s how science works. And those contra set of figures are almost always shown to be wrong in some way, or based on poor or non-science, or irrelevant, and consequently debunked. But of course, that never stops them being trotting out again. Repeatedly.

Every issue you have raised so far has been explained and/or debunked many times. Do you seriously think that any of these issues that you, or any sceptic or denier have raised, have never been thought about or assessed by scientists? Factored in if concluded to be relevant, and discarded if not?

Just because you haven’t attempted to inform yourself as to how we measure or estimate emissions from bushfires (the recent bushfire emissions have already been estimated based on size of the area burnt and the density of trees, all of which can be accurately measured from satellite measurement and imagery), or volcanic emissions (the volume and duration of plumes can be measured, as can their chemical composition), or anything else you’ve mentioned, doesn’t mean it’s not possible.

https://www.global-greenhouse-warming.com/measuring-volcanic-emissions.html
Measuring Volcanic Emissions from Space

If you want to know how science measures these and other things, then start reading more, going to reputable scientific sites, and adopt a mindset of a willingness to learn.

As much as I might like doing the googling for you, at some point you need to take responsibility for seeking the answers to your own questions if you genuinely want to know about and understand this issue.

Right on, if everyone tried "some" it would make a major change.....
 
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EcoCloudIT

Active Member
Aug 24, 2015
1,151
412
Melbourne, VIC
I absolutely agree we should all be acting in whatever way we can to create a better environment. Everyone on here that is a tesla owner is already doing that. Suggest many dont realise, which its likley the most effective method of cleaning up the planet.
Pluto used to be a planet. The best scientists, thousands of them....fairly much all of them, told us pluto was a planet. Then it all changed in 2006. Not saying the science on climate change is right or wrong, i just dont give it a whole load of credibility based on human history. In the meantime I’ll keep doing my part to minimise my impact and keep my air clean. My home and city transportation are now operationally carbon positive. It’s not that hard to achieve, and no lifestyle compromises required.

Well, I got a Tesla way back in 2015 and thought I was doing my bit until I realised water (or lack or it) and eating animals is far more of an issue....so now we are vegetarians (reducing methane gas) and have a 2 tank water system (reducing our impact on water use, returning 75% back to the water table etc.)
 

Techno-phile

S100D, P3D- in garage
Nov 13, 2014
342
461
Perth, Australia
Well, I got a Tesla way back in 2015 and thought I was doing my bit until I realised water (or lack or it) and eating animals is far more of an issue....so now we are vegetarians (reducing methane gas) and have a 2 tank water system (reducing our impact on water use, returning 75% back to the water table etc.)

Yes same.
We have PW2, Teslas, Solar PV, and then discovered that womens' education and emancipation (to reduce population growth), then vegetarianism (to reduce deforestation and CH4) are far more effective ways of stopping Global warming than reducing CO2 emissions.

Of course we must do all of them, plus technology eg Space solar shades at the Lagrangian point, if we are preserve our species on Earth.
 

Dborn

Confirmed
Aug 26, 2011
2,715
357
Sydney, Australia
You may be able to continue enjoying your steaks if this mob are successful. https://www.linkedin.com/company/aleph-farms/
Can’t think of much worse than being vegan. Came across a gentleman who was vegan +. He would not eat processed veggies. (The’+’) The most he would go was olive oil. He accepted that olives needed to be crushed (processed) to get the oil!!! Yikes!! You need to be seriously f......ed up to think this way, AND want to live your life feeding a lifestyle this crazy. His food, on the cruise i was on, was the most unappetizing thing i have seen, and it was a 5 star cruise where the food was superb!
 

paulp

Active Member
Jul 23, 2015
2,680
1,221
Adelaide, Australia
You may be able to continue enjoying your steaks if this mob are successful. Security Verification | LinkedIn
Can’t think of much worse than being vegan. Came across a gentleman who was vegan +. He would not eat processed veggies. (The’+’) The most he would go was olive oil. He accepted that olives needed to be crushed (processed) to get the oil!!! Yikes!! You need to be seriously f......ed up to think this way, AND want to live your life feeding a lifestyle this crazy. His food, on the cruise i was on, was the most unappetizing thing i have seen, and it was a 5 star cruise where the food was superb!
Hopefully your cruise isn’t stuck in Japan
 

meloccom

Moderator Aus/NZ
Feb 11, 2008
2,331
1,224
Sydney Australia
Moderators note:
Gee whiz, can’t leave this thread alone too long it seems.
I have just banned two members for 7 and 14 days as a result of inappropriate posts on this forum.
It’s possible to have a reasonable discussion about this topic without resorting to ad hominem attacks against other members or Greta Thunberg.
I note that some others found it appropriate to like or love these inappropriate posts and would like those involved to consider their actions as well. I consider that the equivalent of standing around two people fighting whilst shouting “Fight- fight-fight!” Would you do that off line?
Rant ends.
 

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