The early CHAdeMO's were almost all 25 kW, which is DC L1. A slew of the "new" CCS ones installed at BMW dealerships are L1. BMW/Bosch's CCS solution for $6,500 + install is an L1 DC EVSE.
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I'm impressed with nrg eVgo
- Thread starter David99
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The early CHAdeMO's were almost all 25 kW, which is DC L1. A slew of the "new" CCS ones installed at BMW dealerships are L1. BMW/Bosch's CCS solution for $6,500 + install is an L1 DC EVSE.
physicsfita
Member
As someone who does not have off-street parking, it seems to me that DCQC even at the 50 kW level would be great for charging my (hopeful) future Model 3 if it was placed somewhere like a grocery store. Grocery shopping takes a while, even longer if you eat at the store's cafe -- you could get a plenty good charge in an hour. I suspect it will be a cold day in you-know-where before there would be even one L2 charger on the curb anywhere within a mile of where I live (or my workplace offering it, for that matter).
(FWIW, I am moving -- the new place will have off-street parking, but I'm not sure how it will go convincing the HOA to let me install an EVSE, so the same concerns may still apply. They will definitely apply to people living where I am at the moment.)
(FWIW, I am moving -- the new place will have off-street parking, but I'm not sure how it will go convincing the HOA to let me install an EVSE, so the same concerns may still apply. They will definitely apply to people living where I am at the moment.)
Huh? I don’t see how an HOA is relevant to this at all. Does the place have a garage? If it’s in the garage, it’s not visible from outside, so the HOA doesn’t matter. If you’re buying, you just do it. If you’re renting, it’s a matter of talking with the landlord.
You keep on moving the goal posts, we're talking about eVgo here, not BMW.
As far as all early CHAdeMOs being 25 kW, that is completely wrong.
The earliest rollout of CHAdeMO stations were either Blink stations (all 50 kW, 125A) or Aerovironment (again 50 kW, 125A).
There are very few 25 kW QCs out there and next to none on the eVgo network. If there are any on eVgo, I doubt that they paid for the hardware.
I completely agree that when comparing a 25 kW QC to a 80A L2 station, the L2 station would be much better from a cost, reliability and compatibility perspective. But good luck convincing manufacturers to put an onboard charger bigger than 30A. Way too many plugins can't even charge faster than 16A on L2. Tesla is the only one doing it.
physicsfita
Member
The garage is a restricted common area (4 spaces, 4 tenants) - there is no power from my breaker box to my parking space, so I would need HOA approval to put in a power line.
When prospective buyers see how slowly other EVs charge compared to Tesla, that competitive pressure may convince them. Even better if Tesla reverses course and makes 80A charging standard. It's a relatively small price difference-- when dual chargers were a factory installed option it was only $1500.
The problem is - on a < $30k car, $1.5k is a big deal.
Just look at the LEAF S - the base model does not even include 30A L2 or DC QC. It's a $1,770 option to get 30A L2 and DC QC.
The 2016 e-Golf SE - no more 30A L2 or DC QC - just like the LEAF S. No price announced to add L2 or QC, but it'll probably be similar to the LEAF.
The Spark EV - you can't even get anything faster than 16A L2.
None of the PHEVs come with anything faster than 16A L2 - and many of them are slower than that.
The fact is that a huge amount of these EV owners only charge on L1. The manufacturers look at those stats and say why bother with anything faster when most people don't even fully use what they have most of the time. Heck, even Tesla made it more expensive to add dual chargers by taking away the factory option.
It's rather infuriating because yes, the incremental cost from 16A L2 -> 30A L2 can't be much - and neither can the cost to go from 30A L2 to 40A L2 or faster.
But in real life when using public charging, the difference between 16A and 30A L2 is huge. People who get it and understand the difference it makes - the $1500 is no big deal. To everyone else - it's a large added cost for no benefit. I only wish that other manufacturers had the ability to add on additional L2 charging capacity away from the factory. Tesla's modular chargers are ingenious.
I think the light bulb came on at the end here... I'm not talking about TODAY, but in the NEXT FEW DECADES.
All those little towns you referenced have gasoline stations that cost MANY multiples more to install than a DC charger. $10k is the cost of a premium Coke machine, by the way. If EVs catch on, like the must, all the back water places will be decades behind, but they will eventually adopt the status quo.
I suspect that a future 5-10kW DC charger on that same 208/240 volt AC circuit on a 30, 40 or 50 amp circuit would only cost $2000, not $10k. And, it could plug in EXACLY the same way that a UMC plugs in.
Like it or not, for EVs to become mass market also means that competitive price issues will be paramount. If leaving out a spare tire saves them a lot of money (over the cost of a subscription service to change the tire), or leaving out a $1000 - $2000 onboard charger, I'm VERY confident that my "worst idea" will be the norm, particularly for low end cars.
The manufacturer can advertise that stripped down car for a really low price, and then "bump" the buyer for the charger (if they don't already have one).
The car is lighter and cheaper. You still have the OPTION to buy an onboard AC powered charger.
Also, just like you toss in that UMC in the back of your car, you could do the same with a 5-10kW portable DC charger, just like the guys did with an EV1. It just won't be light to lift, but very nearly the same weight as an existing onboard AC powered charger and UMC together. You would only do that with your stripped down low cost EV when you were driving someplace that didn't have charging, which will be RARE in the decades ahead.
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You seem a bit hung up on nomenclature, but the real problem is your facts are wrong.
There are almost NONE of the 25kW CHAdeMO chargers deployed. 25kW is VERY rare (65 amps or less). The norm is 115-125 amps and advertised as 44kW to 62.5kW, which in reality is:
120 amps * 300 volts = 36kW (this would be a depleted battery modern EV)
120 amps * 380 volts = 45.6kW (about peak battery voltage at 120 amps for a modern EV)
120 amps * 500 volts = 60kW (no current road legal EV has a battery over 403 volts, so not possible)
The CCS equipment, if included in a CHAdeMO dual unit, will be the same as above.
The individual CCS charge units provided by BMW/VW through Bosch are the quite lower powered units, about 60 amps, and therefore half the speed of above:
60 amps * 300 volts = 18kW (this would be a depleted battery modern EV, like a BMW i3)
60 amps * 380 volts = 23kW (about peak battery voltage at 60 amps for a modern EV)
60 amps * 500 volts = 30kW (not possible, since no modern car is over 403 volts, including a Tesla or BMW)
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I can't help but cringe to see something so shortsighted. Thankfully, your vision isn't even considered.
You still don’t seem to be considering the main factor I keep reminding you of. Who pays for this? The only way any of this makes any sense and can work is if the person paying for the chargers is the person getting the benefit of it. That means the person considering buying the car may pay for more capability of onboard charging. Businesses might put in an outlet or a small AC charging station because it’s cheap and they may attract a little more business, but they will not get any more benefit from the expensive high power DC charging station, so why would they pay for that? It’s not their electric car. Sure, places may be willing to spend $10K on a soda machine, because the profit margin on sodas is crazy awesome. They will make their money back. With a charging station? Never. So is this a business? A city government? Why would they spend $10K on a charging station when they will never be able to come close to making their money back and would just be choosing to take a loss. Most businesses are not really excited to do that.
NRG recently opened a new site in Fremont, CA with four dual standard ABB 53CJ Fast Chargers. I think they're finally getting a clue that redundancy and multiple chargers per site are worthwhile where there is demand. The site is reportedly prepared for 4 more chargers.
Green Car Congress: 6 new EVgo fast charging locations in Salt Lake City; 100th station in California
That story incorrectly says that the site can "support 9 plug-in concurrently". While there are 9 cables (one is the L2 connected to the Volt in the photo below), only 5 cars can charge simultaneously.
Image taken from Plugshare
Edit: Another story about this site at Green Car Reports
Green Car Congress: 6 new EVgo fast charging locations in Salt Lake City; 100th station in California
That story incorrectly says that the site can "support 9 plug-in concurrently". While there are 9 cables (one is the L2 connected to the Volt in the photo below), only 5 cars can charge simultaneously.
Image taken from Plugshare
Edit: Another story about this site at Green Car Reports
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What is your point?
The EVgo network is quite good in urban areas. They are building ever larger sites with more powerful chargers thanks to partnerships like the "Ultium Ready" program with GM. They do not pretend to have a rural nationwide network.
For example, this site in Mountain View, CA.
It has 6 350kW stalls (100kW CHAdeMO on each) plus two more 100kW stations at the far end that support power sharing. The pity is that there are not 4 parking spaces for those two charging stations.
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