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Importance of Superchargers in GM vs. Tesla

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Not unless GM or LG have been silently building a huge battery facility they don't. Tesla is planning to double the whole industry's capacity from a couple years ago with the Nevada factory - to give them enough batteries for 500k cars. GM can't possibly match that without big investment in building batteries, which hasn't been publicly announced or hinted at that I've seen.

As Tesla is building their factory, there are plenty of manufacturers that are also increasing capacity. When GF opens do you think that all of a sudden there is going to be a ton of demand to absorb all of that production along with all of the production that Panasonic is currently providing overnight? There is nothing to indicate that there is going to be a world wide explosion for EV demand in the next couple of years. Past predictions have been incredibly optimistic to what has actually occurred. What is going to fundamentally change this in the short term? Plenty of time for GM and LG to source battery production if there is indication that the demand is indeed there. Lets not talk about theoretical, lets talk actual demand. As of right now, it just isn't there to justify a whole lot of capacity increase.

GM has a lot of cash and resources. They may be dinosaurs, but they have the ability to adapt when/if the market requires. Tesla is not the only company building battery factories right now.
 
Which is exactly why I said that they have the ability to do so. The question is do they have the will and desire? I think not. But if they decided to sink a couple billion, they could certainly achieve said goal.

Sure. Eventually. Enough to build a million Bolts in 2019, starting from nothing today, though? (Which is what the original post for this subthread claimed.) I doubt it.

Big projects take time - and like the 9 mothers in one month parable, a lot of the long poles can't be rushed - and even with a complete factory you can't go from building nothing to building flat out overnight.
 
Sure. Eventually. Enough to build a million Bolts in 2019, starting from nothing today, though? (Which is what the original post for this subthread claimed.) I doubt it.

Big projects take time - and like the 9 mothers in one month parable, a lot of the long poles can't be rushed - and even with a complete factory you can't go from building nothing to building flat out overnight.

Why even ask the question since there will not even remotely be demand for a million Bolts so why would they build the infrastructure today? If I had to bet, I would bet that there will not be demand for 1 million Tesla's either 3 years from now. Obama wanted a million EV's on the road by now, and we are not even close. Gonna be a long slow ramp up, but it will happen. Just not in the next 5 years IMO.
 
Why even ask the question since there will not even remotely be demand for a million Bolts so why would they build the infrastructure today? If I had to bet, I would bet that there will not be demand for 1 million Tesla's either 3 years from now. Obama wanted a million EV's on the road by now, and we are not even close. Gonna be a long slow ramp up, but it will happen. Just not in the next 5 years IMO.

Well, I ask the question because the OP did - his position seems to be that Tesla is at risk because GM could build a million Bolts and cut the feet out from under Tesla before they can ramp the Model 3 up. I don't think the logistics on the battery side support that contention, which was all I've been trying to say.

(I also think he's got the point about CCS and Supercharging backwards - The Supercharger network is much better to begin with, but if separately funded CCS and CHAdeMO networks started to look like a limitation to Tesla, all they have to do is release a CCS adapter like the CHAdeMO one - which they've already hinted about - and the Tesla can charge from whichever of the three is most useful to them, while other cars are limited to a single network.)
 
(I also think he's got the point about CCS and Supercharging backwards - The Supercharger network is much better to begin with, but if separately funded CCS and CHAdeMO networks started to look like a limitation to Tesla, all they have to do is release a CCS adapter like the CHAdeMO one - which they've already hinted about - and the Tesla can charge from whichever of the three is most useful to them, while other cars are limited to a single network.)

Is there such a thing as a CCS<->CHAdeMO adaptor? If not, is one even theoretically feasible?
 
Is there such a thing as a CCS<->CHAdeMO adaptor? If not, is one even theoretically feasible?

I've never heard of one. I don't see a reason it would be impossible to build one if a company was willing to spend the time and money, and thought they'd find customers.

Right now many of the DCFC stations being installed in the US are dual head, with a CCS cord and a CHAdeMO cord from the same charger (I think only one can be active at a time.)
 
CCS is only specified for high power at high Voltage. The Amperage limit is 200A. Pack Voltages would have to increase to allow faster charging.
GM has only committed to 50kW charging in the Bolt at the moment.
It depends on what you consider to be "high power". CCS has a specification for 200A at 450V or 500V (depending on which document you look at). That means a theoretical peak of 90 or 100 kW which compares well with the original Tesla SuperCharger rate of "90 kW".

However, Tesla could do more 200A so they really could charge at close to 90 kW immediately starting on an empty battery whereas CCS is current-limited and an empty battery probably couldn't start off charging much faster than 350V at 200A which would be 70 kW. Still, could be twice the charge rate of a LEAF.

I worry about GM. They have established a sad trend of implementing slow charging rates. The Volt, and even the Spark EV, are limited to 240V at 16 even though their batteries ought to easily handle 32A. At the Bolt EV reveals at CES and Detroit they were apparently telling some people that the car was presently limited to 50 kW charging although it had been successfully tested at higher rates and they were still considering what rate to support in the product.
 
... At the Bolt EV reveals at CES and Detroit they were apparently telling some people that the car was presently limited to 50 kW charging although it had been successfully tested at higher rates and they were still considering what rate to support in the product.

From the interview I saw, they said it was 50 kW and no mention of considering supporting anything higher. Not that it matters, since afaik there are no > 50 kW CCS in the USA and GM has no plans to help build a DCQC network.
 
Which is exactly why I said that they have the ability to do so. The question is do they have the will and desire? I think not. But if they decided to sink a couple billion, they could certainly achieve said goal.

True, but this is not as easy as you may think. Doing so will require a revisit of their entire business model and the announcement alone would risk hurting their own sales.
 
From the interview I saw, they said it was 50 kW and no mention of considering supporting anything higher. Not that it matters, since afaik there are no > 50 kW CCS in the USA and GM has no plans to help build a DCQC network.
Regardless of GM, other car makers (VW group, BMW, Daimler) will likely help put in 90/100 kWh 200A CCS as well as some independent charging station owners. Today there aren't any cars that support over 125A so it's no surprise that the installed chargers only support the cars on the road so far.

The interview is from InsideEVs.com:

Bolt EV Chief Engineer Josh Tavel:

Exclusive: Inside The Chevrolet Bolt With Its Chief Engineer - New Details

"We’re still figuring out how fast we want to go. We’ve over validated a lot of our components just in case, but were still figuring out if we want to limit it to say, 50kW’s or 60kW’s or possibly higher. That decision hasn’t been made yet but I can promise it won’t be lower than 50kW.”
 
From the interview I saw, they said it was 50 kW and no mention of considering supporting anything higher. Not that it matters, since afaik there are no > 50 kW CCS in the USA and GM has no plans to help build a DCQC network.

While it's true that GM says they have no plans to build a DCQC network, and there aren't any >50 KW in the field today (precious few faster than 25KW), they may not need to. By embracing CCS, which includes VW/Audi's plan to start installing 150 KW CCS, and by building a 60 KWH car that can take real advantage of it, they are putting their thumb on the scales. 25 KW CCS is a little better for users than 19.2 KW HPWC and you don't need to carry a heavy, expensive on board charger around with you all the time just to use it for that rare long trip. 50 KW is a lot better than that, and 150 is even better than supercharging. Just as with EVs more generally, small steps allow them to test the waters, and if it works for them, they can jump in in a big way really fast. Getting enough batteries is the only real bottleneck and I'm guessing they've got a plan for that that we can't see yet.

Today, there are very few cars that can do anything meaningful with 50KW CHAdeMO (Teslas are among the few) and consequently there are very few anywhere but near cities. But if you look at plugshare, CCS has been expanding much more strategically E.g., it is already possible to go from Portland, OR, to LA with a 100 mile range car only on CCS, which is not true of CHAdeMO, even though it's been around for a lot longer.

The good news for Tesla is that if CCS is successful, it's pretty simple to make an adapter, although Tesla had a bit of a snit over it and may drag their feet for a while. The bad news is that they'll have a real competitor for the first time, which is good news for the overall EV market but may present problems for a company that doesn't actually make a profit yet and suddenly finds they need to compete on price. The bad news for the overall EV market is that CHAdeMO have a terrible reputation for reliability and a lot of present US CCSs are CHAdeMOs with an adapter. If they're smart, GM and VW will be working behind the scenes to make CCS's reputation better.

-Snortybartfast
 
Tesla has made it difficult for other vendors to join by demanding that they share Tesla's "front loaded" pricing scheme. I think this is a huge mistake. It limits the Supercharger to premium cars.
Oh? How exactly? By requiring a 200 mile minimum range, so that the cars that use the system are 'real' cars? By requiring a 'big' battery pack to achieve that range? By insisting that plugin hybrids and short range compliance cars need not apply? Is neither the BMW i3 nor i8 a 'Premium' car? What about the Mercedes-Benz B-Class Electric?

...all another EV would need is an appropriate connector and the software to use it (CHAdeMO and CCS demonstrate that their batteries and other innards can...the car may need to limit charge to 50KW or so but that's already part of the protocol).
Perhaps you have missed the point of the Supercharger network. It exists to enable long distance travel between population centers. It also reduces the significant disadvantage that is perceived from having to 'wait to charge'. Thus, it greatly improves the utility and convenience of owning an electric car. By limiting the charge speed you just make things slower and less convenient for EVs. What matters is the number of miles that are added, not the percentage of charge filled, in a particular time frame. Superchargers would have to be built much closer to each other, and most bays would be filled with cheaply built, but overpriced, slow, compliance cars that could barely go 30 miles at a time. Exactly what traditional automobile manufacturers would prefer. Oh, wait... That would be DUMB.

A pay per use scheme with separate billing would save $2-3K from the initial cost of the car. That front loaded cost is being used to build out the network, but the market is small enough that it's frustratingly slow. a bigger company would not have to wait.
You are assuming facts that are not in evidence. A pay-per-use scheme would be the same as the current ICE Age principle -- the costs of 'fueling' your vehicle go on, and on, and on, and on ad infinitum. Compared to gassing up, even if gasoline were $1.00 per gallon, and you found something that legitimately got 50 MPG... That would come to $240 to travel 12,000 miles per year, and $300 to go 15,000 miles per year. Let's see, how many of the Model ≡ direct competitors (Acura TLX, AUDI A4, BMW 3-Series, Cadillac ATS, Infiniti Q50, Jaguar XE, Lexus IS, or Mercedes-Benz C-Class) get 50 MPG... Oh, wait... NONE of them! And you know what? FREE still costs a lot less than gasoline. The 'bigger' automotive companies have universally stated they have exactly ZERO interest in building a network of chargers, of any type, EVER.

The Bolt is a big risk for Tesla. It's the first car that even comes close on any of the things that are special about Teslas, and if the 3 isn't competitive with it on price and convenience of long-trip charging, then Tesla risks losing a lot of market share fast.
Wait... Hunh? What?!? The BOLT isn't a 'risk' -- or a 'threat' -- at ALL! It is a first shaky clumsy incomplete step toward the reality that Tesla Motors has hoped for since its inception. The point is to ACCELERATE THE TRANSITION TO ELECTRIC VEHICLES. And the BOLT is meeting the parameters that Tesla insisted upon regarding fully electric range, instead of being a hybrid plugin. But since GM is aiming low, for perhaps a 30,000 unit market -- barely what the LEAF has managed at its best -- it represents no problem at all for Tesla, who are aiming for 500,000 units per year of Model ≡ by 2020 from Fremont alone. There is NO CHARGING NETWORK coming from GM. They don't even have a charging STRATEGY in place.

The X is so similar to the S that it's largely cannibalizing S market share instead of bringing new customers in. two fizzles in a row could kill Tesla.
Well that there is just flat out WRONG. Model S sales have INCREASED since the Model X was launched. There is no cannibalization. People buy what they want, what they need, and what they can afford. Once Model X Production is fully online, so that a new order can reach a Customer in three months or less, I fully expect the popularity of Model X to show in force. While Model S sales show no sign of faltering, and continue to lead the class.

GM holds a lot of cards here: They could embrace supercharging and build a lot more supercharger stations, which would be good for both Tesla and the Bolt. OR, They could go with CHAdeMO or CCS and install 1000 long-trip charge stations in the US in a few months, which would pretty much force Tesla drivers to buy the adapter and undermine growth of the supercharger network for the foreseeable future--no matter how superior the technology may be, convenience and good enough will win. OR, they could do their own version of what Tesla is doing and build their own incompatible network, and make it very expensive for others to use it.
Those cards are not very good. Could after could after could... Equals a whole bunch of IFs. Tesla Motors is holding TRUMPS. Once again, General Motors has specifically stated, MULTIPLE TIMES, that they have NO INTEREST in building a charging network of any kind, using any standard whatsoever, whether Tesla, SAE, or Japanese designed. Period.

I guarantee that there's a big faction in the marketing department at GM that wants to do this, and the possibility of killing Tesla is seen as a good thing by them. I hope wiser heads prevail, but it wouldn't be the first time greed for short term profits beat out the long term good of the industry at GM.
One problem with the strategy of 'killing Tesla'... In order to offer a car that kills the Model ≡, GM also has to build something that will 'kill' the Chevrolet Malibu, Buick LaCrosse, and Cadillac ATS. Tesla Motors has no problem with that at all. Git 'er done.

Here... Have a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster... Don't forget your towel on the way out... And, oh, for the record...? Slartibartfast was better.

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they were apparently telling some people that the car was presently limited to 50 kW charging although it had been successfully tested at higher rates and they were still considering what rate to support in the product.

From the interview I saw, they said it was 50 kW and no mention of considering supporting anything higher. Not that it matters, since afaik there are no > 50 kW CCS in the USA and GM has no plans to help build a DCQC network.

I feel like I've seen that reported elsewhere as well, that it might support higher charging rates. But I agree with RiverBrick, that it's of little consequence if there are no CCS chargers that actually support a rate above 50kW. My Wi-Fi may be able to support 100Mbps, but if all the internet providers in my area are 10Mbps or below, it does me little good.
 
And another important point. The Tesla brand trumps GM big time. On March 31 we'll see people lining up to put down a deposit on Model 3. We'll see no such lines for the Chevy Bolt. With all of the compromised vehicles it manufactures GM has managed undermine its own brand.

Agree...there was an article written in the last week or two that said (to the effect) that GM had over 100 reservations for the Bolt...for such a puny amount, I'd have been embarrassed to disclose it! lol
 
GM has publicly stated that they will not be involved in any charging infrastructure or have any interest in helping establish one. They just don't see that it has anything to do with them.
While the Bolt may have a nominal range of 200 miles, GM is doing nothing to enable it for longer distance travel.
They take the view that someone else will build a network of DCFC charge points for them.
The problem is that nobody is interested in doing that. For evidence take a look at the US country map in Plugshare and only look at even combining chademo and CCS there is no cross country solution. They are all in metro areas only.
Now go back and add superchargers back in - there is the ONLY one that is designed to be a solution for a car to hop from one to the next.
The issue is that while CCS "can" reach the same charge level as a Supercharger, the vast majority don't. Most Chademo or CCS stations in the US are 50K or less and a whole bunch of CCS are the next to useless BMW 24K versions.
On that basis GM will be lucky if they take 3 years to sell 30,000.
 
GM isn't going to allow their cars to be parked next to Tesla-branded superchargers. If you've been following the state by state dealership battle, you'd see that GM is involved with a large number (if not all), working towards either limiting Tesla sales or outright banning.

Mary Barra, GM's CEO has made some pretty snarky comments aimed at Tesla in recent months. Even if GM did change strategy and want to work out a deal for use of the supercharger network, I can't see Tesla wanting to do any deal with GM.

Just my personal opinion, of course.