Is it wise for Tesla to refuse FSD refunds?

[SunCharged]

You will get a Sentry mode with the next software update and that’s awesome that you can tune cars to achieve better than a 5% performance boost, but what you do on ICE cars has zero relevance to this discussion. Whether you personally value it or not, Tesla just gave you a performance boost for free.

Tesla is a different kind of Company. Most hardware / software companies give software updates for free for incremental improvement of existing features, not for new features. While a good argument could be made that a 5% performance increase is an incremental improvement that should be free (albeit completely unheard of previously in the history of the auto industry), Sentry mode is a brand new feature and would normally be charged for.

Look, let’s face it, i took no issue with Tesla’s change in pricing policies and you (and others) do. No amount of logical back and forth will change that if you view pricing on the FSD upgrade as a futures contract (as I do) Tesla’s actions are both precendented and “normal,” and if you view the FSD upgrade as a set price for a given set of features it will be annoying that folks that purchased it later got a better price.

And I quite honestly have no problem with you being okay with the price changes. I wish I felt the same way! But I just don’t.

I do disagree with the comment about tuning however. I guess my point was in stating that 5% is insignificant was that I’m sure Tesla could’ve did a little better. Perhaps those of us that bought in 2018 with EAP could’ve been offered some sort of greater power boost? I have no doubt that this is possible.

 

[Darscot]

I am sure that I can think a ton more if I spent the time, but the wine industry would be one that instantly comes to mind. If you buy wine from a Bordeaux Chateaux on futures, your price is locked in. This pricing happens while the wine is still in barrel. When the wine is finally delivered (in bottle) the price can be either higher or lower than what you paid.

You buy futures (as was FSD a “future”) to lock in a guaranteed price, not necessarily the best price.

For that matter, every financial futures contract sold on Wall Street functions the same way. You are buying something not yet delivered for a specified price now. You are “hedging your bets.”

Can we please stop these ridiculous comparisons. You can buy futures on commodities, they are physical things you can buy and sell. If Tesla wants to go that route my $4000 would make me an investor. They would have to provide me the source on the software so I can sell it at a profit or a loss on an open market. I’ll happily accept that but for some reason I don’t think they will. I did not invest in FSD.

 

[ebmcs03]

Musk has already said they can’t financially do this, but you can always sue.

So then they can screw those of us who paid $5k for EAP over for supporting them. Those who don’t support them can pay $5k for everything. Total BS!

 

[Mayhem]

TESLA: We need everyone on FSD to train the NN and recoup HW3 R&D.



TESLA: If you didn’t buy AP, instead of the $11k you’d have to spend, get it for more than half off!

Owners without AP: Sweet!



TESLA: If you didn’t buy FSD, instead of the $4K you’d have to spend, get it for half off!

Owners without FSD: Cool!



TESLA: If you bought AP+FSD... thank you for helping to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy.

Owners with AP/FSD:

 

[SergeyUser]

I did request a refund for FSD on 03/02/2019. Never heard back from Tesla since then. I guess they are all awaiting for EM to decide to respond to anyone.

And here we go, received response from Tesla earlier today:

Thank you for contacting Tesla. I apologize for the inconvenience, We do not process refund requests for the removal of the Enhanced Autopilot or removal of the Full Self-Driving (FSD) feature if purchased either Pre or Post-Delivery. This is because once the option is purchased, it becomes part of the configuration, or value of the car, and is therefore non-refundable.
​

Wow. “Part of the configuration, or value of the car”!! You see, they almost want to refund, but they can’t!

I guess this is it to Tesla being a “good guy”.

 

[Darscot]

And here we go, received response from Tesla earlier today:

Thank you for contacting Tesla. I apologize for the inconvenience, We do not process refund requests for the removal of the Enhanced Autopilot or removal of the Full Self-Driving (FSD) feature if purchased either Pre or Post-Delivery. This is because once the option is purchased, it becomes part of the configuration, or value of the car, and is therefore non-refundable.
​

Wow. “Part of the configuration, or value of the car”!! You see, they almost want to refund, but they can’t!

I guess this is it to Tesla being a “good guy”.

It's so laughable, they are a leading edge tech company but they just can't manage to set a boolean false. If you give them money they can easily set that same boolean true, but they just don't have the technology to set it false. LOL

You should tweet that response out to Elon ask him how they can design a car that drives itself but they can't manage to set a bit from 1 to 0. They have only accomplished setting it from 0 to 1.

 

[SergeyUser]

There is so much wrong with their response, I don’t even know where to start.

 

[doubleatheman]

Preface: I am not upset about the price drop of the car itself, I am describing payment for a pre-order of a feature yet to be delivered or installed.

I Pre-ordered Full Self Driving on my Model 3 Long Range through the web portal for $5,000. I previously paid $5000 for EAP at time of delivery. ($10K for EAP+FSD)

Tesla needs to refund me $3000 for changing the pre-order price of the Full Self Driving Pre-Order for other existing owners now able to Pre-order full self driving for $2000. I find it unacceptable to be told that I must pay an additional $3000 for Full Self Driving pre-order when I have not even had Full Self Driving features enabled on my vehicle beyond what Enhanced Auto Pilot already has. The most loyal customers whom pre-ordered Full self driving at a higher price than $2000 who are still waiting for the features need to be refunded. How are customers who are pre-ordering after me getting honored a better price. Furthermore some FSD pre-orders in the last two weeks are being refunded $1000, because they paid $3000, but I am still being told as someone that paid $5000 I must accept that... for a pre-ordered feature yet to be delivered on my vehicle. Why are some customers receiving refunds, and some not? How recent the pre-order for FSD was should not dictate who gets a refund or not.

I have spoken to Tesla support at least 5 times about this issue, and each time the representative on the phone tells me that my case will be escalated to a supervisor. I have yet to receive any call back from any supervisor for my concerns.

4/25/18 - I took delivery of my model 3.

On 12/30/18 - I was advised by Tesla email support that Full Self Driving prices would go up beyond the $5000, and the prices would be the best for those that pre-order earlier. (See the attached email below from Tesla)

On 1/11/19 - I called Tesla Corte Madera CA store, and was advised to order FSD through the web portal for $5000, and Tesla would mail me a check for $1000. I have called the store manager many times Anna, she is waiting for Tesla corporate to get back to her, this seems to be dragging out. Since I took delivery of my car before Jun 27 2018, Its been confirmed that I should have received FSD at that time for $4,000. However no confirmation that Tesla can help me. This is all before the 2/28/19 announcement. This Electrek article also confirms this: Tesla increases price of its ‘Full Self-Driving Capability’ over-the-air update

On 2/28/19 Tesla announced that FSD Pre-order Add on for existing customers with EAP would be $3k

On 3/6/19 the price was adjusted to 2K for FSD pre-order add on for existing customers with EAP, and those that paid $3000 would be receiving a $1000 check.

I am an earlier believer of FSD, and pre-ordered at a much higher price. I have NO features yet of FSD on my vehicle beyond what EAP already had. I don't know how something that has not yet even been delivered to me costs me more. Access to the early beta program is not retribution for the fast new FSD Pre-orders for existing owners adding it is only $2000.

Please explain to me why I am pre-ordering at a price of $3000 more? I am not talking about the price of the features I am able to enjoy today. FSD is not here yet (beyond what EAP had).

----

12/30/2018:

Hello and thank you for contacting Tesla.

We apologize for the delay in getting back here. We really happy that you love the car and we apreciate you being a part of the big Tesla family. Unfortunately, the price of the FSD has increase to the $5000 and we will not be able to change it. As we getting closer to actually make the cars Full self drive, the price may increase, so it will be great to have it at this price as we do not know when that will increase again. And for the Hardware 3, we will have more detail about that soon and we will notify all the people that bought the FSD about the installation detail or what going to happen. Again thank you for being a part of the big Tesla family.

If you have more questions feel free to reply to this email or contact us via phone (877) 798-3752.

Papy K. | Tesla Support
12832 Front Runner Blvd | Draper, UT 84020
p (877) 798-3752 | e [email protected]

 

[Garlan Garner]

Preface: I am not upset about the price drop of the car itself, I am describing payment for a pre-order of a feature yet to be delivered or installed.

I Pre-ordered Full Self Driving on my Model 3 Long Range through the web portal for $5,000. I previously paid $5000 for EAP at time of delivery. ($10K for EAP+FSD)

Tesla needs to refund me $3000 for changing the pre-order price of the Full Self Driving Pre-Order for other existing owners now able to Pre-order full self driving for $2000. I find it unacceptable to be told that I must pay an additional $3000 for Full Self Driving pre-order when I have not even had Full Self Driving features enabled on my vehicle beyond what Enhanced Auto Pilot already has. The most loyal customers whom pre-ordered Full self driving at a higher price than $2000 who are still waiting for the features need to be refunded. How are customers who are pre-ordering after me getting honored a better price. Furthermore some FSD pre-orders in the last two weeks are being refunded $1000, because they paid $3000, but I am still being told as someone that paid $5000 I must accept that... for a pre-ordered feature yet to be delivered on my vehicle. Why are some customers receiving refunds, and some not? How recent the pre-order for FSD was should not dictate who gets a refund or not.

I have spoken to Tesla support at least 5 times about this issue, and each time the representative on the phone tells me that my case will be escalated to a supervisor. I have yet to receive any call back from any supervisor for my concerns.

4/25/18 - I took delivery of my model 3.

On 12/30/18 - I was advised by Tesla email support that Full Self Driving prices would go up beyond the $5000, and the prices would be the best for those that pre-order earlier. (See the attached email below from Tesla)

On 1/11/19 - I called Tesla Corte Madera CA store, and was advised to order FSD through the web portal for $5000, and Tesla would mail me a check for $1000. I have called the store manager many times Anna, she is waiting for Tesla corporate to get back to her, this seems to be dragging out. Since I took delivery of my car before Jun 27 2018, Its been confirmed that I should have received FSD at that time for $4,000. However no confirmation that Tesla can help me. This is all before the 2/28/19 announcement. This Electrek article also confirms this: Tesla increases price of its ‘Full Self-Driving Capability’ over-the-air update

On 2/28/19 Tesla announced that FSD Pre-order Add on for existing customers with EAP would be $3k

On 3/6/19 the price was adjusted to 2K for FSD pre-order add on for existing customers with EAP, and those that paid $3000 would be receiving a $1000 check.

I am an earlier believer of FSD, and pre-ordered at a much higher price. I have NO features yet of FSD on my vehicle beyond what EAP already had. I don't know how something that has not yet even been delivered to me costs me more. Access to the early beta program is not retribution for the fast new FSD Pre-orders for existing owners adding it is only $2000.

Please explain to me why I am pre-ordering at a price of $3000 more? I am not talking about the price of the features I am able to enjoy today. FSD is not here yet (beyond what EAP had).

----

12/30/2018:

Hello and thank you for contacting Tesla.

We apologize for the delay in getting back here. We really happy that you love the car and we apreciate you being a part of the big Tesla family. Unfortunately, the price of the FSD has increase to the $5000 and we will not be able to change it. As we getting closer to actually make the cars Full self drive, the price may increase, so it will be great to have it at this price as we do not know when that will increase again. And for the Hardware 3, we will have more detail about that soon and we will notify all the people that bought the FSD about the installation detail or what going to happen. Again thank you for being a part of the big Tesla family.

If you have more questions feel free to reply to this email or contact us via phone (877) 798-3752.

Papy K. | Tesla Support
12832 Front Runner Blvd | Draper, UT 84020
p (877) 798-3752 | e [email protected]

That really does not sound like a Tesla persons response at all.

Grammatical errors all over the place.

Now...the only people I know who are receiving a refund are those who ordered online when the price was listed on the website incorrectly.

 

[doubleatheman]

That really does not sound like a Tesla persons response at all.

Grammatical errors all over the place.

Now...the only people I know who are receiving a refund are those who ordered online when the price was listed on the website incorrectly.

The errors all over the place were like that in the email I got from Tesla. I know It was alarming to me to. (I know I'm not good in that department, but I'm not customer service )

 

[ohmman]

mod note: threads merged.

 

[doubleatheman]

Ryan's most recent podcast episode of the Ride the Lightning brings some air time to this exact topic!

Ryan took my call explaining the very issue this thread is discussing.
Episode 188 time stamps: 36:33 to 47:00 is the segment if you wish to listen.
My call into the podcast specifically is time stamp: 40:55
https://teslapodcast.libsyn.com/
Episode 188: Model Y Is Coming & V3 Supercharging Is Here!

 

[nicholb]

All the comparisons and talk about price drops and added features are not getting to the meat of why this is irritating people.

It comes down to a violation of trust. Tesla stated that if you buy these features (EAP & FSD) at the time of purchase you would get them for less than if you bought them post purchase. This was stated on the order page so it is not some random tweet. Then Tesla offers those same people who chose not to add EAP & FSD at purchase a $3000 discount off the at purchase price to add them after purchase.

It does not matter if anything is pre-order or beta, all that matters is that Tesla made a statement about the at puchase vs post purchase price which influenced people's buying decisions, then basically said sorry, we changed our mind.