WilliamG
Hinge Fanatic
But... it doesn't at all match up best with a Plaid at any speed. It's just not comparable.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Is Tesla software limiting the launch and 0-60 times of the refreshed non plaid model s/x ?
- Thread starter Riceball777
- Start date
I never said it was comparable, but it is closest in the 60-100 range. Lets put this in perspective, the MS LR is still quicker (at speed from lets say 30 mph) than any previous version of the S.
Getting in the Plaid after driving my MS LR for some time didn't impress me in the 60-100 mph range as it did off the line and 0-60. I'll stand by my earlier statements in earlier threads that the MS LR was a remarkable value, and a great option for many people, who didn't want to spend the extra 40-50k for the Plaid over the LR.
A 10 second sedan trapping about 130 mph, off the showroom floor, is pretty impressive. I ran bunch of Taycans, all varieties, and the Turbo and Turbo S would beat me every time to 60. From 60 mph on up, there wasn't a single one that ever beat me. The mid range performance of the MS LR is very good, even if not as good as the Plaid. It is still a ~700 hp car.
If Tesla hadn't neutered the MS LR like they did, I would have kept it. It could have easily covered a Turbo Taycan Turbo S off the line if Tesla uncorks it. The fact it never met its claimed 0-60 was enough to part ways with it.
Am glad I bought the Plaid. Yep. The place where it impresses me the most is off the line. There aren't many times I'll ever be able to run it much over 100 but I can enjoy the initial hit almost every day and this is where the MS LR was the softest (artificially so).
Getting in the Plaid after driving my MS LR for some time didn't impress me in the 60-100 mph range as it did off the line and 0-60. I'll stand by my earlier statements in earlier threads that the MS LR was a remarkable value, and a great option for many people, who didn't want to spend the extra 40-50k for the Plaid over the LR.
A 10 second sedan trapping about 130 mph, off the showroom floor, is pretty impressive. I ran bunch of Taycans, all varieties, and the Turbo and Turbo S would beat me every time to 60. From 60 mph on up, there wasn't a single one that ever beat me. The mid range performance of the MS LR is very good, even if not as good as the Plaid. It is still a ~700 hp car.
If Tesla hadn't neutered the MS LR like they did, I would have kept it. It could have easily covered a Turbo Taycan Turbo S off the line if Tesla uncorks it. The fact it never met its claimed 0-60 was enough to part ways with it.
Am glad I bought the Plaid. Yep. The place where it impresses me the most is off the line. There aren't many times I'll ever be able to run it much over 100 but I can enjoy the initial hit almost every day and this is where the MS LR was the softest (artificially so).
WilliamG
Hinge Fanatic
I mean sure, but you have to remember that for most people the S LR is a high 10 quarter mile whereas the Plaid is a low 9 quarter mile. That’s not comparable really.
You’re certainly not wrong about “neutering” off the line, though whether that is a byproduct of gearing for higher speeds, who knows…
I see where you are coming from but let me adjust my messaging a bit.
If the MS LR was totally uncorked off the line, so it feels like more like it does when it seems to come alive around 40 mph, it would probably be a low 10 second car. Think about it in the sense the the fastest outgoing P version of the S beats it to 60 mph by over a second. It then claws back that entire second after about 40 mph to catch it and beat it in the 1/4 with both a quicker ET and a higher trap speed. How often do you see a car give up a second to 60 yet still come back to win in the 1/4?
I don't know exactly what Tesla is doing, maybe torque limiting, but all I know is it feels like the car really comes alive. The first time I got on my LR hard was about 60 mph and I thought, hell this is fun. Then I had a chance to launch it and I was trying to figure out where the fun went. I was impressed though with how many launches I could do in a short period of time and the car never seemed to fade.
On a side note, I may take off my rear spoiler and the Plaid badge. I want to run a friend who has a modified 911 Turbo S. Not a lot of mods but he is solidly in the 9's. My new S would look like my old S. I'll just tell him Tesla came out with an acceleration boost to unlock the MS LR like they did the 3/Y LR's. It will be fun to see the look on his face. I might sandbag the first run or two.
If the MS LR was totally uncorked off the line, so it feels like more like it does when it seems to come alive around 40 mph, it would probably be a low 10 second car. Think about it in the sense the the fastest outgoing P version of the S beats it to 60 mph by over a second. It then claws back that entire second after about 40 mph to catch it and beat it in the 1/4 with both a quicker ET and a higher trap speed. How often do you see a car give up a second to 60 yet still come back to win in the 1/4?
I don't know exactly what Tesla is doing, maybe torque limiting, but all I know is it feels like the car really comes alive. The first time I got on my LR hard was about 60 mph and I thought, hell this is fun. Then I had a chance to launch it and I was trying to figure out where the fun went. I was impressed though with how many launches I could do in a short period of time and the car never seemed to fade.
On a side note, I may take off my rear spoiler and the Plaid badge. I want to run a friend who has a modified 911 Turbo S. Not a lot of mods but he is solidly in the 9's. My new S would look like my old S. I'll just tell him Tesla came out with an acceleration boost to unlock the MS LR like they did the 3/Y LR's. It will be fun to see the look on his face. I might sandbag the first run or two.
WilliamG
Hinge Fanatic
I think the issue is that you refer to it as “uncorking”, where it may be a gearing situation. If you tune the gearing for off-the-line speed then you suffer at the high end. You can’t necessarily have both pieces of cake in this instance. But of course we’re just speculating here.I see where you are coming from but let me adjust my messaging a bit.
If the MS LR was totally uncorked off the line, so it feels like more like it does when it seems to come alive around 40 mph, it would probably be a low 10 second car. Think about it in the sense the the fastest outgoing P version of the S beats it to 60 mph by over a second. It then claws back that entire second after about 40 mph to catch it and beat it in the 1/4 with both a quicker ET and a higher trap speed. How often do you see a car give up a second to 60 yet still come back to win in the 1/4?
I don't know exactly what Tesla is doing, maybe torque limiting, but all I know is it feels like the car really comes alive. The first time I got on my LR hard was about 60 mph and I thought, hell this is fun. Then I had a chance to launch it and I was trying to figure out where the fun went. I was impressed though with how many launches I could do in a short period of time and the car never seemed to fade.
On a side note, I may take off my rear spoiler and the Plaid badge. I want to run a friend who has a modified 911 Turbo S. Not a lot of mods but he is solidly in the 9's. My new S would look like my old S. I'll just tell him Tesla came out with an acceleration boost to unlock the MS LR like they did the 3/Y LR's. It will be fun to see the look on his face. I might sandbag the first run or two.
To end, there is a reason the Taycan Turbo S has two gears, for example…
Y’all are convincing me. I need plaid next time. Just need to convince my wife.
WilliamG
Hinge Fanatic
Just tell her in an emergency which car would you rather be in? You’re just thinking about the family…
Hard to say if Tesla did that since they limit the top speed to about the same as the M3 LR (149 vs 145). With the 3 and acceleration boost the greatly improved the acceleration but it kept the top speed the same. I would have thought that if they were going to reach a 200 mph top speed with the Plaid, it would have been geared differently than the LR (higher so to speak (numerically lower) or just more revs).
The heart of it is Tesla didn't even deliver what was promised for the MS LR. I think the best time I've seen for a stock, not gutted, MS LR is 3.23 0-60. Most people are running mid-3.3's to 3.4's.
Anyway, I don't care anymore. It is just another one of Tesla's lies. It was a source of never ending frustration and the reason the car is gone. I'll just consider it buying acceleration boost for 20k and call it a day. Best 20k I've spent in a long time.
@brkaus - it all comes down to your priorities. As I've mentioned a few places, it wasn't worth the 50k difference originally to me. At just a bit over 20k, for me, it was worth it even more because I had some other nice updates as well that just sweetened the deal for me. If I were going into this buying a new one, and performance was high on my last, the current delta of 25k seems like they have it priced maybe a bit high. Looking at the X Plaid and LR, it is only 10k. That is a screaming deal!
It’s funny a lot of the Plaid owners get very defensive!
I think what some people are saying is butt dyno feel (especially at 40mph+). If someone say it “feels” almost as fast in a certain range then why does that bother you so much?
Don’t forget the LR is almost 700hp, and 200lbs lighter than the Plaid and almost 500lbs lighter than the Taycan Turbo S. Actually from 40mph+ it is faster than the Taycan Turbo S. It might be the lightest Model S from Tesla ever. It’s also probably the 2nd fastest car ever from Tesla when looking at the 1/4 mile (or at least tied with the previous performance S).
@DayTrippin has owned both and I’ve actually heard such comments before. I would save the word “gargantuan” for comparing a Prius with the Plaid
Actually for the X is it $3500 more for the Plaid. Choose the 6 seat option. It’s included in the Plaid! I don’t get how the Plaid is only $3500 more. That tells me they are losing money on the X Plaid or the S Plaid is overpriced!
So either in one situation or losing money on the other. Maybe a little of both. The initial 50k delta on the Plaid was really paying a lot more for the bragging rights. I appreciate that Tesla did go bold with the Plaid and the LR really benefitted from it.
You just reminded me of something interesting about the Model X. I thought I saw some runs posted here of the MX LR that were running 3.6 or so vs the Tesla claim of 3.8 for 0-60. I've seen some vids on YT where under less than ideal circumstances, by people who seemed a bit clueless, easily running 3.8x times. So there is another example of at least meeting the claimed times or exceeding them but so far I've never seen that for the MS LR.
It is like the MS LR is the red-headed stepchild that Tesla didn't want to steal any thunder from the Plaid.
It seems that the XP and XLR are both a little under-rated. Some people on XP are getting 2.3sec for 0-60. One person got 3.4sec on the XLR.
On the other hand both SP and SLR are not meeting their numbers. I consistently see about 2.1sec on the SP, not the claimed 1.9sec. And I think we are seeing the same behavior on the SLR.
But honestly let’s just put things in perspective. The SLR is as fast as the McLaren F1 which was the super car of super cars and here we are complaining
Yep, first-world problems. OTOH - I am not a trust fund baby and have worked hard to earn the money I have. I want to get good value for it when I spend it.It seems that the XP and XLR are both a little under-rated. Some people on XP are getting 2.3sec for 0-60. One person got 3.4sec on the XLR.
On the other hand both SP and SLR are not meeting their numbers. I consistently see about 2.1sec on the SP, not the claimed 1.9sec. And I think we are seeing the same behavior on the SLR.
But honestly let’s just put things in perspective. The SLR is as fast as the McLaren F1 which was the super car of super cars and here we are complaining
As for the S Plaid time, I could see it being an issue on the street. Traction is easily going to be an issue. The heavier X Plaid might not be as affected on the street but the fact it beats its numbers is pretty amazing. There was some of that going on with the 3/Y as well. Definitely, a pattern emerging here. Though the M3P will typically easily meet its times.
If my MS LR ran as well as that MX LR did with the 3.4, I would have been solidly in the 2's and there wouldn't be a Plaid in my garage. So maybe it all worked out for the best in my situation, especially since my primary driving environment changed.
I would want a Plaid X myself. The problem with the 6 seater (only option for Plaid X) is that it doesn’t fold. For a large car like the X I have 2 dog crates. They simply won’t work. For short trips both my dogs use the 2nd row bench seat (with a seat cover of course). Again the 6 seater is no good for me.
Now I didn’t buy my X for the dogs but we certainly need one vehicle that can carry our dogs on trips. My other car is a Miata
. Talk about the other extreme I swear the Miata is the funnest car ever and going 60 feels like you’re doing 90 haha.I also carry large things once in a while where fold flat is needed. I just couldn’t justify the Plaid X and it not being very functional for my needs. When I got my LR the price difference was more like $20k and I was willing to pay but not lose functionality.
That’s why I really would love the boost like they did on the 3/Y. I ended up with the 7 seater XLR
Boost please. Willing to pay. Or offer the Plaid X in 5/7 seat and I’ll upgrade.
Last edited:
I was looking for a Plaid X, and about to buy one, and I happened to read your post in another thread. Instant deal killer for me. Hence the reason I bought the S Plaid as I had a good deal workling already so knew what I could get out of it on trade.
Even your S plaid has fold down seats. You could probably fit some long objects in your S Plaid that you could not fit in the X Plaid.
Tesla needs to address this pretty big shortcoming on the 6 seater soon!
I also think the S is one of Tesla’s best looking cars. With the right wheels of course
MagnusMako
Member
sandman1330
Member
More and more I'm thinking it's a gearing issue... The Plaid has the carbon sleeved motors that can run at higher RPM, so may be geared lower, at least in the rear drive unit (the front drive unit is the same in both cars AFAIK, but nothing says they both need to have the same gearing ratios as they are completely independent mechanically)
n2mb_racing
Active Member
I own a Plaid and I have had a LR '23 S as a loaner a few times. I'm going to guess they aren't limiting the 0-60 times. At low speeds, the motor torque is limited by the max amps that can be sent through the motor. The battery has plenty of power available, but the current through the motor is the limiting factor. Thus, the motors are limited to the same torque until about 50 mph in the Plaid. You can see the straight line in the graph below. HP is increasing because torque is constant, and RPM is linearly increasing.
Above 50 mph, the battery power limit kicks in, and then the limit of the motors is set by how much power can be delivered from the battery. Therefore, you get constant HP up to about 100 mph. Somewhere above that, the back EMF of the motors starts limiting the max current that can be pulled from the battery, and the power will drop off again, but that seems to be a very gradual drop off, somewhere around 200 mph.
Anyway, so back to the Long range. If the LR really has 2 model Y motors instead of the 3 in the Plaid, we can expect about 2/3 of the torque of the plaid at launch, up to about 50 mph. But, the Long range has a bit of an advantage since it has the same battery as the plaid, it can pull max power from the battery and maintain that 2/3 torque for longer. Someone could datalog the Long Range, but I'd guess there are parts of the curve where it pulls nearly the same KW from the battery as the plaid, because it can.
But, the whole thing could be a bit different depending on the gearing of the rear motor in the Long range.
TL;DR I suspect the 0-60 isn't limited in the Long range, but the mid speed is pretty strong thanks to the plaid battery, which is why it gets a better quarter mile time than the Model 3 performance, even though the 0-60 might be the same or slower.
Above 50 mph, the battery power limit kicks in, and then the limit of the motors is set by how much power can be delivered from the battery. Therefore, you get constant HP up to about 100 mph. Somewhere above that, the back EMF of the motors starts limiting the max current that can be pulled from the battery, and the power will drop off again, but that seems to be a very gradual drop off, somewhere around 200 mph.
Anyway, so back to the Long range. If the LR really has 2 model Y motors instead of the 3 in the Plaid, we can expect about 2/3 of the torque of the plaid at launch, up to about 50 mph. But, the Long range has a bit of an advantage since it has the same battery as the plaid, it can pull max power from the battery and maintain that 2/3 torque for longer. Someone could datalog the Long Range, but I'd guess there are parts of the curve where it pulls nearly the same KW from the battery as the plaid, because it can.
But, the whole thing could be a bit different depending on the gearing of the rear motor in the Long range.
TL;DR I suspect the 0-60 isn't limited in the Long range, but the mid speed is pretty strong thanks to the plaid battery, which is why it gets a better quarter mile time than the Model 3 performance, even though the 0-60 might be the same or slower.
Interesting take. I think the front motor of both the LR and Plaid are the same and not the model Y motor.I own a Plaid and I have had a LR '23 S as a loaner a few times. I'm going to guess they aren't limiting the 0-60 times. At low speeds, the motor torque is limited by the max amps that can be sent through the motor. The battery has plenty of power available, but the current through the motor is the limiting factor. Thus, the motors are limited to the same torque until about 50 mph in the Plaid. You can see the straight line in the graph below. HP is increasing because torque is constant, and RPM is linearly increasing.
Above 50 mph, the battery power limit kicks in, and then the limit of the motors is set by how much power can be delivered from the battery. Therefore, you get constant HP up to about 100 mph. Somewhere above that, the back EMF of the motors starts limiting the max current that can be pulled from the battery, and the power will drop off again, but that seems to be a very gradual drop off, somewhere around 200 mph.
Anyway, so back to the Long range. If the LR really has 2 model Y motors instead of the 3 in the Plaid, we can expect about 2/3 of the torque of the plaid at launch, up to about 50 mph. But, the Long range has a bit of an advantage since it has the same battery as the plaid, it can pull max power from the battery and maintain that 2/3 torque for longer. Someone could datalog the Long Range, but I'd guess there are parts of the curve where it pulls nearly the same KW from the battery as the plaid, because it can.
But, the whole thing could be a bit different depending on the gearing of the rear motor in the Long range.
TL;DR I suspect the 0-60 isn't limited in the Long range, but the mid speed is pretty strong thanks to the plaid battery, which is why it gets a better quarter mile time than the Model 3 performance, even though the 0-60 might be the same or slower.
I think many of us suspect that the 0-30 is limited just by the “feel”. Power seems to really kick in around 30mph.
Also the previous P100D (dual motor) had the exact same power as the LR and was able to achieve much better launches.
I’m still hoping they can give us at least more initial launch. The LR has 200hp more than the M3P and yet is at the same 0-60? I mean sure it weighs a few hundred pounds more but that 200hp extra is way more than enough to beat a M3P.
Similar threads
