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Israel/Hamas conflict

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Maybe now Gaza residents will think harder before they elect a government that will wage terrorist jihad against peaceful innocent neighboring civilians.

Maybe the new Palestinian government will use the aid given to them to develop infrastructure to provide food and water to their residents instead of building tunnels and buying weapons to wage terrorist jihad against nearby music festivals.

The last time there was an election in Gaza was 2006. Over half the people living there were not eligible to vote in the last election. And Hamas did not win a majority, they won a plurality against some alternatives who were seen as even worse. Once they got into power they ensured they stayed in power by canceling elections. Much like the Nazis did in Germany in the 1930s.

This quagmire has enough bad guys that anyone can blame any party by cherry picking the data.

As the stronger power with a conventional military and a real state government, Israel is treated by the world as the adults in the room and heaped with more responsibility. As the insurgent army Hamas is sort of infantalized and less is expected of them. This is normally the way with conventional armies vs insurgencies. If the conventional army goes hard after the insurgents, they are seen as bullies by the world. It's why the US has pulled its punches when fighting insurgent armies since Vietnam where it was accused of being a bully on the Vietnamese.

Hamas knows that Israel has a sharper spotlight on it and makes it as difficult as possible for Israel to hit their fighters without causing civilian casualties. It puts Israel in a no win situation when Hamas' HQ is underneath a civilian hospital full of civilians. They also position themselves close to other civilians that look bad on the news when they are hurt.

Hamas also knows that Israel could kill its current crop of fighters, but the civilian casualties will serve to recruit the next generation from the Palestinian population.

Hamas is playing to lose the battle, but win the long war and Israel is playing right into their hands.

In the west there is a generational divide in who supports which side. For Boomers and Gen X, Israel has been in a fight for survival our entire lives. First it was state actors, but it devolved into an insurgency around the 1980s. The state actors have stayed directly out of fights with Israel for 40 years, instead feeding the insurgents.

The PLO got out of the insurgency game and have decided to create an actual state in the West Bank. There are clashes with Israel, but they are minor compared to Hamas who is still in the insurgency game.

For those too young to remember the wars with state actors, all they have memories of is Israel in constant on and off battles with insurgencies. Many people tend to feel sympathy for underdogs and the Palestinians are the underdogs in this battle.

Bad actors have leveraged these sentiments sprinkling in some antisemitism. This also turns the meme that the pro-Israel lobby in the US has used for decades against them. The pro-Israel lobby has leveraged western guilt over the Holocaust to equate any criticism of Israel the state or the government of Israel with antisemitism. The bad actors playing the younger generations have turned that around turning their criticisms of Israel into antisemitism.

A number of governments of Israel, including the current one have not helped their case and fueled the Palestinian cause.

There are facts on both sides of this conflict that paint each side in a bad light. There are bad guys on both sides, a lot of innocents on both sides, and also a bunch of people who think they are doing the right thing, but causing a lot of destruction and misery in the process.

The Ukraine war is a much clearer picture. Ukraine was attacked unprovoked by Russia in a blatant grab for territory. Ukraine is defending its home against an outside aggressor.
 
I'm sorry that you feel that way. I'm fairly certain that you're the only person in this thread that holds that view.
And I'm pretty certain that all those on this thread who support Israeli actions do so because they've been lied to all their lives and therefore have no clue what's going on over there.
 
It's laughable to think that Israel is playing right into Hamas' hands by destroying their terrorist organization, weapons, and tunnel infrastructure. Westerners espousing such uninformed notions show just how wide their disconnect from the reality of the situation is.

Ultimately a terrorist organization is it's members, not it's battlefield assets. Hamas' leadership is safe in Qatar
10 Things to Know About Hamas and Qatar

Hamas is going to be recruiting on the back of this war and they will likely recruit a lot of people.

Today's terrorist foot soldiers, their weapons, and their facilities will be destroyed, but the way Israel is going about it, tomorrow's Hamas will be larger and possibly better equipped thanks to outside parties sending funding because they are sympathetic to Hamas. Especially after "big bad Israel" cleaned their clock.

Insurgencies very, very rarely end with any kind of military victory. The more the conventional military wins battlefield victories, the larger the insurgency group gets. The only way for the conventional military to win would be complete genocide.
 
"For Palestinians in Gaza, there’s nowhere left to go.

They were already packed tightly before the war, hemmed in by a years-long Israeli and Egyptian blockade. During the current conflict, few parts of the enclave have been spared bombardment, and Israel’s often haphazard and confusing evacuation orders have pushed the displaced into ever-shrinking “safe” areas.
"

 
Ultimately a terrorist organization is it's members, not it's battlefield assets. Hamas' leadership is safe in Qatar
10 Things to Know About Hamas and Qatar

Hamas is going to be recruiting on the back of this war and they will likely recruit a lot of people.

Today's terrorist foot soldiers, their weapons, and their facilities will be destroyed, but the way Israel is going about it, tomorrow's Hamas will be larger and possibly better equipped thanks to outside parties sending funding because they are sympathetic to Hamas. Especially after "big bad Israel" cleaned their clock.

Insurgencies very, very rarely end with any kind of military victory. The more the conventional military wins battlefield victories, the larger the insurgency group gets. The only way for the conventional military to win would be complete genocide.

Most of the Hamas leadership has probably already been killed inside Gaza. The few that are in Qatar aren't as safe there as you might think. They know that quite well at this stage. Sinwar, appropriately named, is target #1, and the conventional wisdom is that he is still holed up in/under Gaza.
 
Hamas is playing to lose the battle, but win the long war and Israel is playing right into their hands.

But of course the “war” for them extends beyond their mere mortal existence.

As for Israel playing into Hamas hands (which oddly, Palestinian supporters think is a good thing?!) — they had no choice.

Hamas KNEW that by committing the single most concentrated reign of hand-to-hand terror, probably since the Vikings or even Attila, OF COURSE Israel would have no choice but to come into Gaza after the terrorists.

And when Hamas chooses to hide behind schools, hospitals and ambulances, they leave Israel no choice that it targeting terrorists, there will always be civilian collateral deaths. But that is specifically allowed under international law.

This is solely because of choices Hamas, and their supporters made. They chose to wage terrorist jihad against music festivals from behind innocent civilians. Those choices have consequences.

Having not previously paid much attention to the details of Israel / Palestine before Oct 7, and having generally dismissed it as yet another stupid religiously motivated dispute, I was sympathetic to Palestine and thought both sides should drop their religious motivations and be more civil and constructive, and Israel, being the more civilized (barely) adult in the room, should have been being more supportive to them.

But now after Oct 7 and the details of what happened, and reading about the details of more of the history of the dipsute, my support for Palestinians has evaporated. How such a people and culture could do the things they did on Oct 7. And even those who didn’t participate in it celebrated it! Unbelievable.

I don’t know of the long term solution, but the short term response must be to go after the people who organized and committed the terror on October 7.
 
But of course the “war” for them extends beyond their mere mortal existence.

As for Israel playing into Hamas hands (which oddly, Palestinian supporters think is a good thing?!) — they had no choice.

Hamas KNEW that by committing the single most concentrated reign of hand-to-hand terror, probably since the Vikings or even Attila, OF COURSE Israel would have no choice but to come into Gaza after the terrorists.

And when Hamas chooses to hide behind schools, hospitals and ambulances, they leave Israel no choice that it targeting terrorists, there will always be civilian collateral deaths. But that is specifically allowed under international law.

This is solely because of choices Hamas, and their supporters made. They chose to wage terrorist jihad against music festivals from behind innocent civilians. Those choices have consequences.

Having not previously paid much attention to the details of Israel / Palestine before Oct 7, and having generally dismissed it as yet another stupid religiously motivated dispute, I was sympathetic to Palestine and thought both sides should drop their religious motivations and be more civil and constructive, and Israel, being the more civilized (barely) adult in the room, should have been being more supportive to them.

But now after Oct 7 and the details of what happened, and reading about the details of more of the history of the dipsute, my support for Palestinians has evaporated. How such a people and culture could do the things they did on Oct 7. And even those who didn’t participate in it celebrated it! Unbelievable.

I don’t know of the long term solution, but the short term response must be to go after the people who organized and committed the terror on October 7.
It's terrible that so many civilians, including children are being slaughtered, but this was Hamas' plan from the beginning. Large numbers of these people have been living in these camps for multiple generations. The bordering states refuse to take them. The Palestinian leadership refuses to build permanent places for them to live in. It's been 75 years and they get billions in aid every year and mostly use it to fund terrorism. They want to breed terrorists who will commit any horrible act without thinking. It's truly sad. Something has to change to stop this. The Jews aren't going away. The Palestinians aren't going away. Walls may keep people apart for normal life, but this isn't normal life and they don't keep insane murderers out. Didn't work in Ireland, doesn't work at the US border and certainly didn't stop Oct 7.
 
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But of course the “war” for them extends beyond their mere mortal existence.

As for Israel playing into Hamas hands (which oddly, Palestinian supporters think is a good thing?!) — they had no choice.

Hamas KNEW that by committing the single most concentrated reign of hand-to-hand terror, probably since the Vikings or even Attila, OF COURSE Israel would have no choice but to come into Gaza after the terrorists.

And when Hamas chooses to hide behind schools, hospitals and ambulances, they leave Israel no choice that it targeting terrorists, there will always be civilian collateral deaths. But that is specifically allowed under international law.

This is solely because of choices Hamas, and their supporters made. They chose to wage terrorist jihad against music festivals from behind innocent civilians. Those choices have consequences.

Having not previously paid much attention to the details of Israel / Palestine before Oct 7, and having generally dismissed it as yet another stupid religiously motivated dispute, I was sympathetic to Palestine and thought both sides should drop their religious motivations and be more civil and constructive, and Israel, being the more civilized (barely) adult in the room, should have been being more supportive to them.

But now after Oct 7 and the details of what happened, and reading about the details of more of the history of the dipsute, my support for Palestinians has evaporated. How such a people and culture could do the things they did on Oct 7. And even those who didn’t participate in it celebrated it! Unbelievable.

I don’t know of the long term solution, but the short term response must be to go after the people who organized and committed the terror on October 7.

Most Israelis are culturally Jewish but don't practice the religion or don't practice it much. Judaism is more of a cultural identity than a religion. The two are more intertwined with Judaism than with most other religions. Judaism is one of the only small religions (less than 100 million people claiming to belong) that the world pays much attention to. There are about as many Spiritualists in the world as Jews, but Spiritualists have no cultural identity to go with their religion. Both have about 15 million followers.

The entire Israeli-Palestine conflict is a massive Catch 22. There is no win for anyone. As long as there is a minority on either side determined to continue the conflict, it's going to continue.

Hamas set up Israel to fail in the court of public opinion worldwide. They pulled off an attack egregious enough that Israel would have to respond robustly, killing a lot of civilians and raising the ire of a lot in the west.
 
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The court of public opinion isn't protecting Israeli citizens. The UN won't even issue a resolution denouncing the Hamas 10/7 attack. Israel is quite used to looking out for their own interests. As long as the United States government has their back, that's all that they really need.
 
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The court of public opinion isn't protecting Israeli citizens. The UN won't even issue a resolution denouncing the Hamas 10/7 attack. Israel is quite used to looking out for their own interests. As long as the United States government has their back, that's all that they really need.

The court of public opinion does affect Israel's military aid.
 
The worldwide public opinion you speak of has little bearing on US aid to Israel. Do you really think Israel is in any danger of losing US aid?

Short term no, but longer term yes. Biden is struggling with younger voters because they want to cut off aid to Israel. Those younger voters will become the mainstream in the next 10-15 years and they may not change their minds.

One of the current candidates for the presidency is an isolationist and very mercurial. If he wins, he could cut off Israel in a fit of pique.

So what's the consensus, is Elon a Jew hater, or not? My relatives are in town this weekend and are already bringing this up.

I think he's been influenced by the company he's been keeping who does have some antisemites among the group.
 
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Short term no, but longer term yes. Biden is struggling with younger voters because they want to cut off aid to Israel. Those younger voters will become the mainstream in the next 10-15 years and they may not change their minds.

One of the current candidates for the presidency is an isolationist and very mercurial. If he wins, he could cut off Israel in a fit of pique.



I think he's been influenced by the company he's been keeping who does have some antisemites among the group.

The voters don't approve aid packages. American Jews are highly disproportionate contributors to both parties. Very highly disproportionate. Abandoning Israel would basically amount to political suicide.
 
The voters don't approve aid packages. American Jews are highly disproportionate contributors to both parties. Very highly disproportionate. Abandoning Israel would basically amount to political suicide.

The voters elect the people who approve the aid packages and if enough voters refuse to vote for people who send military aid to Israel, it won't matter how much money the pro-Israel lobby contributes t campaigns.

Money still has an effect in politics, but the effect has been diminishing over the last decade. Some candidates have poured massive amounts of money into their campaigns and gotten nowhere. Michael Bloomberg spent over $1 billion on his 2020 presidential campaign and got 61 delegates. There are a number of other well funded campaigns that came up short too.

People who grew up with a technology are much more resistant to being influenced by people trying to sell them something through that technology (including political candidates). At this point almost all voters in the US grew up with television and TV ads have very little effect moving the needle at this point. Some bad actors found that social media manipulation through sock puppet accounts and social media advertising moves the needle with older people who grew up before the internet, but have a lot less impact on younger people who grew up with it. The proportion of voters who grew up with the internet is just going to grow over time.

Maybe some technology will come along that will catch Millennials and GenZ off guard, but nothing is on the horizon at the moment.

The under 40 crowd are much more likely to be anti-Israel and pro-Palestine than older generations. Again that might change, but it might not.
 
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The under 40 crowd are much more likely to be anti-Israel and pro-Palestine than older generations. Again that might change, but it might not.
I have hope that the young and stupid will no longer be young and stupid when they grow up. Shocking to see how ill-informed some of the most passionate anti-Israeli protesters are when it comes to basic history and facts of this conflict. They see the conflict as nothing other than “big guy against little guy” and absurdly believe Jews are “colonialists” in their ancestral homeland.

Then again, look how awful the Presidents of our leading colleges like Harvard, Yale and MIT are on this subject and we can see why the young and stupid are so profoundly stupid where significant percentages of young people now doubt the Holocaust happened. These are the wages of DEI and “anti-colonialist” curriculum poisoning the minds of our youth. Thankfully we are now seeing a pushback against this divisive garbage.

I trust Joe Biden and the Democrats wont be stupid and amoral enough to abandon Israel to this cohort of young and stupid Holocaust deniers.
 
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So what's the consensus, is Elon a Jew hater, or not? My relatives are in town this weekend and are already bringing this up.

Of course not. He personally gave Bibi a tour of the Fremont factory a few months ago. Discussed possible joint business interests. He also recently travelled to Israel, and has watched the infamous 45 minute video of Hamas members GoPro footage.
 
The voters elect the people who approve the aid packages and if enough voters refuse to vote for people who send military aid to Israel, it won't matter how much money the pro-Israel lobby contributes t campaigns.

Money still has an effect in politics, but the effect has been diminishing over the last decade. Some candidates have poured massive amounts of money into their campaigns and gotten nowhere. Michael Bloomberg spent over $1 billion on his 2020 presidential campaign and got 61 delegates. There are a number of other well funded campaigns that came up short too.

People who grew up with a technology are much more resistant to being influenced by people trying to sell them something through that technology (including political candidates). At this point almost all voters in the US grew up with television and TV ads have very little effect moving the needle at this point. Some bad actors found that social media manipulation through sock puppet accounts and social media advertising moves the needle with older people who grew up before the internet, but have a lot less impact on younger people who grew up with it. The proportion of voters who grew up with the internet is just going to grow over time.

Maybe some technology will come along that will catch Millennials and GenZ off guard, but nothing is on the horizon at the moment.

The under 40 crowd are much more likely to be anti-Israel and pro-Palestine than older generations. Again that might change, but it might not.

I wouldn't take Bloomberg's failed candidacy as any indicator of the significance of political contributions. Americans overwhelmingly support Israel. Even if many are disturbed by the current conflict. Attitudes and political bents of the youth have always shifted as they mature. The next 9/11 type event in the US will certainly open a lot of young eyes.
 
I have hope that the young and stupid will no longer be young and stupid when they grow up. Shocking to see how ill-informed some of the most passionate anti-Israeli protesters are when it comes to basic history and facts of this conflict. They see the conflict as nothing other than “big guy against little guy” and absurdly believe Jews are “colonialists” in their ancestral homeland.

There are some absurd claims for various things out there. Claims that things that can't exist are real based on spurious evidence. But the argument you outline above actually does hold together if you look at it from the angle. It is a fact that the Israelis did move back into the area after being gone for 2000 years. That looks like colonization to some.

The history of the state of Israel from 1947 had a phase where they were scrabbling to hold off other states from overrunning them. At that time they were the underdog. Boomers and GenX grew up with that. By the time the Millennials came along, Israel had the upper hand and they were fighting an insurgency.

Most people are terrible at history that happened before they were born. To a lot of people if they didn't experience it, it didn't really happen. They may accept it happened, but abstractions have a degree of unreality to them.

I am not one of those people and I struggle to grok that way of experiencing the world, but I've seen it many times.

Then again, look how awful the Presidents of our leading colleges like Harvard, Yale and MIT are on this subject and we can see why the young and stupid are so profoundly stupid where significant percentages of young people now doubt the Holocaust happened. These are the wages of DEI and “anti-colonialist” curriculum poisoning the minds of our youth. Thankfully we are now seeing a pushback against this divisive garbage.

I trust Joe Biden and the Democrats wont be stupid and amoral enough to abandon Israel to this cohort of young and stupid Holocaust deniers.

From all I've seen Biden and the bulk of elected Democrats know that supporting Israel is important. There are a few who disagree, but the bulk believe in supporting Israel. There are also quite a few who believe the Palestinians need humanitarian aid.

I wouldn't take Bloomberg's failed candidacy as any indicator of the significance of political contributions. Americans overwhelmingly support Israel. Even if many are disturbed by the current conflict. Attitudes and political bents of the youth have always shifted as they mature. The next 9/11 type event in the US will certainly open a lot of young eyes.

There are other cases this is from 2015
The 27 politicians who raised the most money — and still lost

Jeb Bush raised over $100 million and went nowhere.

Political affiliation changes less than people think. Pew did a study on who was president when a cohort turned 18 tended to predict which party they voted for the rest of their lives. A fairly popular president would win over a majority of that cohort for life. An unpopular president would swing that cohort to the other party. Not talking about all here, just a majority of the cohort.
 
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