Israel/Hamas conflict

[wdolson]

Winning hearts and minds - My FOOT !!

The Gazans and the Muslim world's hearts and minds are deeply, very deeply entrenched in killing Jews (and even Hindus and Christians if opportunity presents). Any number of concessions and friendly gestures short of entire Jewish community getting killed and wiped out, with their women taken as sex slaves and converted, will not win the Muslim world's heart and minds. You may disagree all you want, but this is the deep reality.

Not I did say at the start that it is a Kobiashi Maru scenario. The reason that bit from Star Trek made it into the common lexicon because it is a test at the Star Fleet Academy designed to be a no win situation.

Israel is not going to win over the Muslim world anytime soon, but they could make inroads in opinion in the west with the right messaging. But it's going to take a lot to counter the damage Hamas has already done.

By being kind to non-combatants, it won't change opinions short term, but over time it could make inroads. Germany and especially Japan were the mortal enemies of the United States in 1945, but they are two of the best allies the US has today. What contributed dramatically to this change was the way the vanquished were treated after the fighting stopped.

An army in the position that Israel is in has a near zero chance of actually ending the insurgency. History has not been kind to outside armies fighting an insurgency outside their borders. Israel's path right now is a path to disaster over the long term.

Gandhi (who himself was a Hindu) wanted Hindus to be thrown as sacrificial lambs in any communal riots, just to appease the murderers. He was of the opinion, that once the murderers lust has been satisfied, then the killings will stop and peace will be ushered. What an Idiot ! If you give in and appease the perpetrators, you get instant peace which is just temporary. You are basically laying a foundation for a larger problem in the future.

History has shown us over and over again, that a large Muslim community cannot co-exist peacefully as close neighbors in proximity with people of another faith. Israel should create the buffer necessary if they need to be left alone and live peacefully. It is time Egypt and other Muslim countries open their borders for Gazans to move in as refugees and eventually citizenship, and Gaza be left empty as a safe buffer for Israel. Not much different from how fleeing Jews were welcomed in US and other European countries after WW2.

China has got it right with Uyghurs.

Recent history has demonstrated that Muslims don't often peacefully co-exist with other groups, but there are Muslims communities in many countries who are at peace with the people around them. In the US Detroit has a large Muslim community and there is little trouble. Both the UK and Canada have larger Muslim populations than the US and there is little violence between Muslims and the greater community.

Going further back in history Muslims were quite tolerant of other "people of the Book", ie Christians and Jews. When Muslims were in control, the only restrictions put on non-Muslims were they could not hold any government job and they had to pay an extra tax. That was it.

When things were turned around and Muslims were under the rule of Christians, they didn't fare as well.

The Crusades created the first bad blood between Muslims and Christians, and that was an invasion by the Christians. But once the Crusades were over, there were hundreds of years of relative peace between Muslims and others until the British played divide and conquer in India pitting various groups against one another to weaken the governments so they could take over. Amplifying the differences between Hindus and Muslims was part of this.

Then the match thrown into the room filled with gasoline fumes was the Zionist movement in Palestine and the establishment of Israel. Regardless of what anyone else thinks, much of the Muslim world sees that as a European invasion of the Middle East. They see it as a modern crusade.

Saying that is BS makes no difference to how the Muslim world sees this.

Short term, attitudes are not going to improve no matter what Israel does. Israel can make it worse, which is what they are doing. On any given topic support for any position is going to vary over a range. A majority may be anti-Israel for example, but before the current conflict the bulk of the population in Gaza was probably not interested in doing anything about it. On a scale of 1-10 where 5 is neutral and 10 is a burning hatred of Israel, the bulk of the population was probably between 6-8. Now a significantly larger chunk of the population are closer to 10.

A lot of the TikTok crowd in the west are around a 6. And since they don't actually have a dog in the fight, it really isn't that important to them.

A long term campaign of treating Palestinian non-combatants with respect and compassion would move more Palestinians back towards 6 and might move more people in the west to at least a 4. To get people in the west to at least 5 could be done in a few years because there is less resistance to change minds. With the Palestinian population, it would likely take generations.

The larger the population at 10, the more danger Israel is in ultimately. Get enough people who hate Israel so much they don't care if they live or die and the Palestinians have an army that can simply overwhelm the IDF with sheer numbers in human wave attacks. The slaughter would be staggering, but a large enough force could do it. Israel has a population of about 9.5 million and there are 1 billion Muslims in the world.

A large enough population who hates Israel that much isn't there now, but their actions are making that population larger every day.

Heavy seas broke damaged the coastal port pier that the US military built for Gaza.

US pier constructed off Gaza has broken apart

That happened to one of the Allied Mulberries after the D-Day invasion.

 

[iPlug]

...Going further back in history Muslims were quite tolerant of other "people of the Book", ie Christians and Jews. When Muslims were in control, the only restrictions put on non-Muslims were they could not hold any government job and they had to pay an extra tax. That was it...

Sadly this is woefully incorrect. Appreciate your knowledge of many historical topics, such as WW2, but this is a dangerous gap in knowledge, particularly with those who have stronger opinions on this thread topic.

Beyond the two you mentioned, there are several other really big ones that were imposed on dhimmi (non-Muslims living in Islamic lands). Here is a more complete summary including the Jizya you mentioned:

1. Jizya - long practiced - a tax paid by Jews/Christians (instead of two other possibilities: forced conversion or execution).
2. Non-Muslims were forbidden to ride horses. They were permitted to ride donkeys if they did so sidesaddle and dismounted if a passing Muslim demanded it.
3. Dhimmi were not allowed to carry weapons. Jews were often specifically targeted in Muslim lands as a result of such for assault and robbery as the Mizrahi Jews of very recent generations and Sephardi Jews
4. Restrictions on clothing and sometimes the need to wear a special badge to identify one as a Jew or other non-muslim (yes, sadly Hitler was far from the first and borrowed from a long history)

Some slightly less heinous ones:

1. dhimmi must acknowledged Islamic superiority
2. dhimmi must avoided blasphemy
3. dhimmi must not try to convert Muslims
4. restrictions on building synagogues and churches
5. dhimmi could not receive an inheritance from a Muslim
6. dhimmi could not own a Muslim slave (Arabic and otherwise Muslim nations were the last to officially ban slavery)
7. a Jew or Christian could not marry a Muslim woman (but the reverse was acceptable)
8. a Jew or Christian could not give evidence in an Islamic court
9. a Jew or Christian would get lower compensation than Muslims for the same injury

 

[Electroman]

Going further back in history Muslims were quite tolerant of other "people of the Book", ie Christians and Jews. When Muslims were in control, the only restrictions put on non-Muslims were they could not hold any government job and they had to pay an extra tax. That was it.

You are not even remotely correct. I am sorry.

Mandyam community still feels Tipu’s sword | Bengaluru News - Times of India

MANDYA/MELUKOTE: Every Diwali, a small section of Mandyam Iyengars who reside in Melukote, the small, historic temple town in Mandya district, mourn t.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Babar in 15th century demolished more than 1500 large temples in India during a 30 year period and built mosques and other structure on top of them, including the famous and most revered Hindu temple in Ayodhya, that was since recently re-built and re-opened only this year. Millions of Hindus were killed protecting their temples and way of life.

This is an excellent article recollecting the horrors of the Muslim kings rule over the Hindus & Sikhs for over 10 centuries. Please do yourself a favor before you say another word on this subject.

Mughal India ~ The Biggest Holocaust in World History

The modern World today is facing a global threat from organizations and groups of terrorists such as the ISIS, Taliban and Al-Qaeeda – whose ideology is chillingly similar to that of the perpetrators of the World’s biggest holocaust in India.

www.sikhnet.com

Will Durant argued in his 1935 book “The Story of Civilisation: Our Oriental Heritage” (page 459):

“The Mohammedan conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. The Islamic historians and scholars have recorded with great glee and pride the slaughters of Hindus, forced conversions, abduction of Hindu women and children to slave markets and the destruction of temples carried out by the warriors of Islam during 800 AD to 1700 AD. Millions of Hindus were converted to Islam by sword during this period.”

Francois Gautier in his book ‘Rewriting Indian History’ (1996) wrote:

“The massacres perpetuated by Muslims in India are unparalleled in history, bigger than the Holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis; or the massacre of the Armenians by the Turks; more extensive even than the slaughter of the South American native populations by the invading Spanish and Portuguese.”

 

[Electroman]

 

[Electroman]

Here is a tweet that recaps the untold atrocities by the “Peacefuls” against Hindus and Sikhs.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1795709509622530190

 

[bhzmark]

Sadly this is woefully incorrect. Appreciate your knowledge of many historical topics, such as WW2, but this is a dangerous gap in knowledge.

Yes this is a problem with some people. The justified confidence they display when discoursing on topics within their domain of expertise continues to be displayed even when that confidence is unjustified when speculating or guessing or misremembering on topics well outside their area of knowledge.

Elon has this problem too. And so does ChatGPT quite annoyingly.

 

[Electroman]

Until and unless the world realizes that this culture has a penchant to create problems and for the most part has not lived in peace with any other culture throughout its history, we cannot solve these current day problems. Forget other cultures, the hatred between Shia & Sunni Islam and the constant friction and violence between them is well known.

Israel is facing the brunt of it. But every other nation is also facing similar problems in Europe and Asia. I have personally seen no-go zones in London, Paris, Belgium and in many Indian cities. The indoctrination of hatred happens at a very young age. Madraasas have curriculums for 3rd graders on how to convert an infidel to Islam through deceit, subterfuge and force.

"Integration has FAILED! If You Want Shariah Law, Leave Britain!"

 

[Just a Reader]

Hasbara getting dumped here in large quantities. That's not going to help. You have to be deeply inserted into the US bubble to ignore that support for Israel has collapsed globally. Israel can still hold on to some loyalties formed through all sorts of lobbying networks like "Friends of Israel" in parliaments etc etc, yet even that is wearing thin by now. No politician outsideof the US wants to be associated with someone like Netanyahu.
Even the charge of critics being "antisemites" has been large devalued - something Jewish communities outside of Israel will soon regret.
This isn't going to get any better, as everyone can easily see that Israel has nothing positive to offer to the Palestinians. Look at the West Bank. What did the Palestinians get? An occupation army, radical, murderous settlers and apartheid laws. And no one cares about how things were handled a century ago. Those rules don't apply any more, just as it isn't acceptable to sell your daughter into slavery.
Add to all that the goon show presented to a global public audience by Israel: Netanyahu, Galant, Katz, Herzog? Then there are Israeli radicals shown to destroy humanitarian aid convoys. No one really has to go to the trouble of creating anti-Israel propaganda, as Israel is doing a most splendid job on that on its own.

 

[iPlug]

Anti-Semitism here and elsewhere getting dumped in large quantities, working towards renormalizing it. Antisemites may very well succeed. That dark historical precedent is certainly on their side. They will continue to criticize the Israeli government (again quite legitimate by itself) but continue to ignore the bigger picture and the greater geographical, historical, and religiofascist surrounding evils with gross distortion and hyper-racist focus. The real (unfortunately exceptionally rare) thinking creatures can manage both.

 

[Jigglypuff]

Hasbara getting dumped here in large quantities...

Out of the gates with a real zinger...

Anti-Semitism here and elsewhere getting dumped in large quantities, working towards renormalizing it...

^^^^^^^^^^ Ahem.

 

[iPlug]

Out of the gates with a real zinger...

^^^^^^^^^^ Ahem.

Was hoping for an “amen” but will take an “ahem”.

 

[madodel]

Biden: Israel's hostage deal proposal 'a historic opportunity, Hamas should take it'

Israel has proposed a three phase ceasefire deal and plan for the day after the war, President Joe Biden said on Friday afternoon during a special address from the White House.

Biden laid out the terms for the agreement which would begin with six weeks of ceased hostilities in which women, children, elderly and injured hostages would be released. During the six weeks Israel and Hamas would negotiate the necessary arrangements to get to phase two, which is a permanent ceasefire.

A ceasefire will continue as long as negotiations take should it take longer than six weeks.

 

[wdolson]

Sadly this is woefully incorrect. Appreciate your knowledge of many historical topics, such as WW2, but this is a dangerous gap in knowledge, particularly with those who have stronger opinions on this thread topic.

Beyond the two you mentioned, there are several other really big ones that were imposed on dhimmi (non-Muslims living in Islamic lands). Here is a more complete summary including the Jizya you mentioned:

1. Jizya - long practiced - a tax paid by Jews/Christians (instead of two other possibilities: forced conversion or execution).
2. Non-Muslims were forbidden to ride horses. They were permitted to ride donkeys if they did so sidesaddle and dismounted if a passing Muslim demanded it.
3. Dhimmi were not allowed to carry weapons. Jews were often specifically targeted in Muslim lands as a result of such for assault and robbery as the Mizrahi Jews of very recent generations and Sephardi Jews
4. Restrictions on clothing and sometimes the need to wear a special badge to identify one as a Jew or other non-muslim (yes, sadly Hitler was far from the first and borrowed from a long history)

Some slightly less heinous ones:

1. dhimmi must acknowledged Islamic superiority
2. dhimmi must avoided blasphemy
3. dhimmi must not try to convert Muslims
4. restrictions on building synagogues and churches
5. dhimmi could not receive an inheritance from a Muslim
6. dhimmi could not own a Muslim slave (Arabic and otherwise Muslim nations were the last to officially ban slavery)
7. a Jew or Christian could not marry a Muslim woman (but the reverse was acceptable)
8. a Jew or Christian could not give evidence in an Islamic court
9. a Jew or Christian would get lower compensation than Muslims for the same injury

I've been busy the last couple of days. I wasn't able to respond.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle. I was not accurate, but the history of Jewish people in Muslim lands can best be described as "complicated". At times and places, they were treated fairly well and at others quite harshly.
History of the Jews under Muslim rule - Wikipedia

There were many times in history where Jewish people were treated better in Muslim rule places than in Christian ruled areas.

Wikipedia doesn't have a similar page for treatment of Christians under Muslim rule, but there is a page on Christianity within the Ottoman Empire.
Christianity in the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia

Again it comes down to "it's complicated".

I was off in white washing the entire history though.

 

[iPlug]

..."it's complicated"...

Agree, complicated and that there are many documented instances in history where Jews were treated relatively less poorly in Muslim ruled lands.

We happen to know the most about what happened to Ashkenazi Jews in Europe followed a bit by Sephardi Jews (Iberian, Mediterranean region including North Africa) followed the least by Mizrahi Jews (Middle East/Near East). The gaps in knowledge likely parallel that history has captured significantly more from Europe during these ages than elsewhere, in significant part that civilizations there were in further stages of development than elsewhere lending itself to a greater capture in writing.

Until recent decades, the relationship of Christians to Jews consisted of marginally tolerating them as second class citizens in good times to numerous pogroms in the very common bad ones. A few western nations with functionally secular governments like the United States, Britain, The Netherlands, and Belgium were vanguard in beginning to shed anti-semitism by some further decades before that.

 

[Jigglypuff]

It's almost like there should be a land for and led by Jews where Jews can be safe from persecution from Christians and Muslims. Maybe that land should be in a location where the Jews came from? Oh, I'm just being crazy, I know.

 

[wdolson]

Agree, complicated and that there are many documented instances in history where Jews were treated relatively less poorly in Muslim ruled lands.

We happen to know the most about what happened to Ashkenazi Jews in Europe followed a bit by Sephardi Jews (Iberian, Mediterranean region including North Africa) followed the least by Mizrahi Jews (Middle East/Near East). The gaps in knowledge likely parallel that history has captured significantly more from Europe during these ages than elsewhere, in significant part that civilizations there were in further stages of development than elsewhere lending itself to a greater capture in writing.

Until recent decades, the relationship of Christians to Jews consisted of marginally tolerating them as second class citizens in good times to numerous pogroms in the very common bad ones. A few western nations with functionally secular governments like the United States, Britain, The Netherlands, and Belgium were vanguard in beginning to shed anti-semitism by some further decades before that.

Historically Christian countries/kingdoms have been very intolerant of other religions. On balance probably more xenophobic than Muslim ruled places were. It was only really in the last century that some Christian dominated countries have moderated on the antisemitism and many have legally done things to discourage it. What's happened in the recent protest is evidence that it isn't gone from the cultural zeitgeist, but there has been progress. The fact that probably a majority disapprove of the antisemitic things said at the protests is a sign things have moved in the right direction.

 

[DrGriz]

It's almost like there should be a land for and led by Jews where Jews can be safe from persecution from Christians and Muslims. Maybe that land should be in a location where the Jews came from? Oh, I'm just being crazy, I know.

Big lift if you apply it to everyone, not just one group.

 

[iPlug]

It's almost like there should be a land for and led by Jews where Jews can be safe from persecution from Christians and Muslims. Maybe that land should be in a location where the Jews came from? Oh, I'm just being crazy, I know.

Big lift if you apply it to everyone, not just one group.

This is an essential foundational counterfactual scenario to consider. Here is a more detailed version of the story to examine:

What other people were indigenous to a land, advanced beyond the iron age into the classical period where they maintained a State/Kingdom, and despite repeated attacks by various colonialists sustained a small but continuous population in their homeland while the large majority were repeatedly driven out by brutal colonialist force, those while in exile suffering endless pogroms, ultimately a significant number of those refugees seeking return to their homeland which was no longer then some other State but a sparsely populated region?

What same people in significant part, in attempt to escape more recent historical waves of pogroms and holocaust, returned from exile and re-settled in their homeland, during initial decades purchased back large amounts of land by legal means, grew in largely unpopulated or lowly populated areas in peace next to others, introduced modern agriculture and other technologies, cleared lands of the scourge of malaria devastating pre-existing peoples there, including with the abatement of swamps, bringing robust economic development to all who shared the land, later attacked by rising external ethno-religious regional nationalists who led locals of their same religion to attack these re-settled peoples and their generations in decades of “uprising”, whose same racist motives led to forced blockade of their further re-settlement while they were escaping genocide?

 

[DrGriz]

This is an essential foundational counterfactual scenario to consider. Here is a more detailed version of the story to examine:

What other people were indigenous to a land, advanced beyond the iron age into the classical period where they maintained a State/Kingdom, and despite repeated attacks by various colonialists sustained a small but continuous population in their homeland while the large majority were repeatedly driven out by brutal colonialist force, those while in exile suffering endless pogroms, ultimately a significant number of those refugees seeking return to their homeland which was no longer then some other State but a sparsely populated region?

What same people in significant part, in attempt to escape more recent historical waves of pogroms and holocaust, returned from exile and re-settled in their homeland, during initial decades purchased back large amounts of land by legal means, grew in largely unpopulated or lowly populated areas in peace next to others, introduced modern agriculture and other technologies, cleared lands of the scourge of malaria devastating pre-existing peoples there, including with the abatement of swamps, bringing robust economic development to all who shared the land, later attacked by rising external ethno-religious regional nationalists who led locals of their same religion to attack these re-settled peoples and their generations in decades of “uprising”, whose same racist motives led to forced blockade of their further re-settlement while they were escaping genocide?

I might be confused about what you are saying, but I am not sure mosquito abatement defines rights to a region of land. The history of the planet is replete with the horrible treatment of one tribe on another, up to and including today. White settlers attempted to wipe out native Americans. Armenians? Africa? It goes on.

 

[iPlug]

I might be confused about what you are saying, but I am not sure mosquito abatement defines rights to a region of land.

Mosquito abatement was a side note, of minor consequence to the argument - was trying to add a supplemental historical fact.

The history of the planet is replete with the horrible treatment of one tribe on another, up to and including today. White settlers attempted to wipe out native Americans. Armenians? Africa? It goes on.

Certainly innumerable tragedies throughout history not confined exclusively to one group. One of the many main points, however was that Jews were not tribes, but rather a classical age kingdom with established full statehood and with the details mentioned without any historical parallel.

The act of the Jews resettling their ancestral land was the greatest decolonialization project the world has known. Justice as usual not without any collateral tragedy. One of a few and largest tragedies is that colonialists and their descendants are predominantly the most active against this now historical project.