Israel/Hamas conflict

[DrGriz]

Mosquito abatement was a side note, of minor consequence to the argument - was trying to add a supplemental historical fact.


Certainly innumerable tragedies throughout history not confined exclusively to one group. One of the many main points, however was that Jews were not tribes, but rather a classical age kingdom with established full statehood and with the details mentioned without any historical parallel.

The act of the Jews resettling their ancestral land was the greatest decolonialization project the world has known. Justice as usual not without any collateral tragedy. One of a few and largest tragedies is that colonialists and their descendants are predominantly the most active against this now historical project.

Jews were not tribes? 12 comes to mind?

Anyway, it is beside the point. I totally respect the right for Modern Israel to exist and to do so in safety. But I think rights come by treaty, not genetics or religion, and every time someone confuses that, irrational conflict occurs.

 

[iPlug]

Jews were not tribes? 12 comes to mind?

If that biblical history is largely correct, that was markedly earlier in their history. But they advanced far beyond stone age/tribal stage by the time colonial powers finally forced their most recent exile.

All people alive today are descendants of one or more tribes. Many historical tribes met the end of their line in the tribal stage, typically by other tribes and later by colonial powers.

Anyway, it is beside the point. I totally respect the right for Modern Israel to exist and to do so in safety. But I think rights come by treaty, not genetics or religion, and every time someone confuses that, irrational conflict occurs.

Treaties can be useful but often do not suffice and a few powers today are the result of religious colonialism, particularly those who want the destruction of Israel which was re-founded as a secular State.

Today, for example, we have Russia 10 years into its invasion of Ukraine. Russia violated numerous treaties such as the Budapest Memorandum where they did precisely the opposite of when they guaranteed to protect the sovereignty of Ukraine.

In the case of Israel, the land most recently to again become Israel/Judea was owned by Britain. Britain wanted a 2-state solution that included giving the Jews back a large portion of their ancestral homeland. The 1947 UN resolution recommended partition of Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states. Jewish leaders accepted the plan, Arab states rejected it. Israel declared independence and Arab states, following their proximal decades of proxy attacks on Jews in that land, now directly went to war on Israel and lost.

 

[madodel]

A former Israeli hostage recalls the brutality of Hamas captivity

 

[DrGriz]

If that biblical history is largely correct, that was markedly earlier in their history. But they advanced far beyond stone age/tribal stage by the time colonial powers finally forced their most recent exile.

All people alive today are descendants of one or more tribes. Many historical tribes met the end of their line in the tribal stage, typically by other tribes and later by colonial powers.


Treaties can be useful but often do not suffice and a few powers today are the result of religious colonialism, particularly those who want the destruction of Israel which was re-founded as a secular State.

Today, for example, we have Russia 10 years into its invasion of Ukraine. Russia violated numerous treaties such as the Budapest Memorandum where they did precisely the opposite of when they guaranteed to protect the sovereignty of Ukraine.

In the case of Israel, the land most recently to again become Israel/Judea was owned by Britain. Britain wanted a 2-state solution that included giving the Jews back a large portion of their ancestral homeland. The 1947 UN resolution recommended partition of Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states. Jewish leaders accepted the plan, Arab states rejected it. Israel declared independence and Arab states, following their proximal decades of proxy attacks on Jews in that land, now directly went to war on Israel and lost.

Of course, we agree, treaties are only as good as those agreeing to them, and history is all about breaking them.

And you don't need to remind me of the recent history of Israel. I am quite aware.

However, you keep going back to things like ancestral homelands (along with property improvements) as if that somehow satisfies something.

Around 3000 years ago (according to them) the Israelites escaped slavery in Egypt and invaded and took over Canaan where the Canaanites lived in City-States (NOT nomadic tribes).

Does your point about ancestral homes extend to Canaanites, whose genetic makeup is now being tracked down, and were there before the Israelis? Let's say I have middle eastern genetics (I do) and it turned out to be largely Canaanite? Would you argue that I have the right to boot some upstart Israeli off of his land that his family might have owned for mere generations, because it was my family's "ancestral" home? I suspect not.

So again, we agree on Israel's right to exist. Let's not go down the path of religious and ancestral rights unless we are willing to accept the natural consequences of that argument, which might not support what we want.

Who were the Canaanites? New insight from 73 ancient genomes

The people who lived in the area known as the Southern Levant -- which is now recognized as Israel, the Palestinian Authority, Jordan, Lebanon, and parts of Syria -- during the Bronze Age (circa 3500-1150 BCE) are referred to in ancient biblical texts as the Canaanites. Now, researchers...

www.eurekalert.org

 

[iPlug]

...property improvements) as if that somehow satisfies something.

Not sure why property improvements keeps coming up, mentioned prior it was a minor part of the argument. Would reiterate several main points from my post.

Around 3000 years ago (according to them) the Israelites escaped slavery in Egypt and invaded and took over Canaan where the Canaanites lived in City-States (NOT nomadic tribes).

Hope no one claimed otherwise that Canaanites made it into the Bronze Age as a people, that we know from archeology. Humans have rendered destruction on each others' civilizations at many stages of civilization development.

Does your point about ancestral homes extend to Canaanites, whose genetic makeup is now being tracked down, and were there before the Israelis?

Yes, this is an important topic, except Canaanites no longer exist as a people and left no surviving written records when they disappeared. There is a common misconception that they dwelled only in the land of ancient Israel, but they were present throughout the Near East (including what is now Lebanon, Jordan, and part of Syria).

Biblical suggestions that Canaanites were wiped out as a people/culture is correct, but their genes never were. In fact, most Jews and Arabs today have a strong genetic linkage to these ancient extinct peoples (>50% in Jews is common). Some of us humans around the world have Neanderthal DNA, and that is not meant as a negative connotation, but part of our ancestry/evolution. Jews, Arabs, and Canaanites are all related more closely on the evolutionary tree than they are to most others.

Let's say I have middle eastern genetics (I do) and it turned out to be largely Canaanite? Would you argue that I have the right to boot some upstart Israeli off of his land that his family might have owned for mere generations, because it was my family's "ancestral" home? I suspect not.

There are valid reasons to have claims to a land and why, for example a 2 state solution is relevant in this thread. This example, however, does not pan out. As noted, Canaanites no longer exist as a people, and this is setting aside that it would not matter that Jews have more Canaanite genetic ancestry.

So again, we agree on Israel's right to exist. Let's not go down the path of religious and ancestral rights unless we are willing to accept the natural consequences of that argument, which might not support what we want.

It was not I who brought up religious rights, and in fact strongly suggested that was not one of the reasons I gave for Israel's claim to reestablishment. I did point out that one should be concerned that Israel instead was threatened by ultra-religious forces. Ancestral rights were one of the main points mentioned. But there were several others that are also rather consequential, again would reference my post.


Not trying to be difficult here. Suspect we are ultimately on the same page of wanting a 2 State solution and peaceful relations with those States and the region at large. Was pointing out the details more so to others on the extremes of the Israel can do no wrong vs. anti-Israel spectrum, because many do not know or care to know the history, but that is crucial in coming to the most just resolution.

 

[DrGriz]

Not sure why property improvements keeps coming up, mentioned prior it was a minor part of the argument. Would reiterate several main points from my post.


Hope no one claimed otherwise that Canaanites made it into the Bronze Age as a people, that we know from archeology. Humans have rendered destruction on each others' civilizations at many stages of civilization development.


Yes, this is an important topic, except Canaanites no longer exist as a people and left no surviving written records when they disappeared. There is a common misconception that they dwelled only in the land of ancient Israel, but they were present throughout the Near East (including what is now Lebanon, Jordan, and part of Syria).

Biblical suggestions that Canaanites were wiped out as a people/culture is correct, but their genes never were. In fact, most Jews and Arabs today have a strong genetic linkage to these ancient extinct peoples (>50% in Jews is common). Some of us humans around the world have Neanderthal DNA, and that is not meant as a negative connotation, but part of our ancestry/evolution. Jews, Arabs, and Canaanites are all related more closely on the evolutionary tree than they are to most others.


There are valid reasons to have claims to a land and why, for example a 2 state solution is relevant in this thread. This example, however, does not pan out. As noted, Canaanites no longer exist as a people, and this is setting aside that it would not matter that Jews have more Canaanite genetic ancestry.


It was not I who brought up religious rights, and in fact strongly suggested that was not one of the reasons I gave for Israel's claim to reestablishment. I did point out that one should be concerned that Israel instead was threatened by ultra-religious forces. Ancestral rights were one of the main points mentioned. But there were several others that are also rather consequential, again would reference my post.


Not trying to be difficult here. Suspect we are ultimately on the same page of wanting a 2 State solution and peaceful relations with those States and the region at large. Was pointing out the details more so to others on the extremes of the Israel can do no wrong vs. anti-Israel spectrum, because many do not know or care to know the history, but that is crucial in coming to the most just resolution.

Yes, we are on the same page. And I agree with the concept of a two state solution. It's just that I think some of your points, ancestral rights and improvements, are distractions that could be applied to other peoples' claims, and including them weakens rather than bolsters your other points. To my ear, anyway.

Cheers!

 

[iPlug]

Agree to disagree on the means to our similar end goals but good to hear we arrive at that same place. The points were to avoid partisan distraction, avoid pulling out one or two points in singularity which might weaken the comparative argument, but to illustrate Israel’s uniquely strong claims by examining the totality off all main elements outlined in the referenced post which build on each other, from my perspective.

Appreciate the civil discussion.


– Prosit

 

[Electroman]

Massive shelling and rockets aimed at Northern Israel by Hezbollah.

I am sure the media and all the peaceniks ware waiting for Israel to retaliate to bring out the victim card and express their outrage

 

[iPlug]

Good to see some progress during these times of otherwise little good news in terms of relationships of the participants/stakeholders:

In marked shift from the past, Saudi textbooks no longer define Zionism as ‘racist,’ indicating progress towards a ‘warm peace’ such as that with the UAE, expert says​

https://twitter.com/x/status/1797756542776988128

 

[indysurfer]

Four more hostages found dead in Gaza. Three were over the age of 80 and were featured in a hostage video back in December.

4 more hostages found dead, Israel says

The Israeli military on Monday confirmed the deaths, including three older men seen in a Hamas video begging for their release.

www.pbs.org

 

[madodel]

Good to see some progress during these times of otherwise little good news in terms of relationships of the participants/stakeholders:

In marked shift from the past, Saudi textbooks no longer define Zionism as ‘racist,’ indicating progress towards a ‘warm peace’ such as that with the UAE, expert says​

https://twitter.com/x/status/1797756542776988128

That is remarkable. Small step but in that part of the world things like this are important harbingers of change. It has been awful for both the Israelis murdered and kidnapped on Oct 7, 2023 and the Hell for the Palestinians since then but maybe we may see a new axis of power in the Middle East that may bring lasting peace between Israel and its near neighbors in alliance against Iran.

 

[indysurfer]

The absolute ignorance of these people continues to astound me.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1797634875572523020

 

[Electroman]

The absolute ignorance of these people continues to astound me.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1797634875572523020

This is not much different from the ignorance of those university students protesting..

 

[Bouba]

Here’s an interesting piece I think is fairly written

For Jews voting in Europe, there are no good choices

One thing is clear: We fear for the future of Europe and our place in it as a minority, no matter how we vote and no matter who wins.

www.politico.eu

My only complaint on the article is how things are portrayed in a good light post war....but thinking about it, that period post war when the anti-Semites from the war were losing influence and dying off...until the arrival en masse of the Islamists ....will probably be looked upon as a golden age for Jews in Europe...such is the precarious life they lead

 

[Tiger]

How many of us are bots?

 

[Jigglypuff]

The Palestinians claiming to be a continuation of Canaanite culture is just as laughable as their concurrent claim to be a continuation of Philistine culture. I guess they're also partly Native American like Elizabeth Warren and all African American like Rachel Dolezal. George Santos is an amateur fabulist.

The idea that Jews have no real or superior claim to Israel is equally laughable.

 

[DrGriz]

There's no codified universal right to land in international law.

 

[Jigglypuff]

There's no real international law, other than might makes right.

 

[Tiger]

Follow the money:

 

[madodel]

So who is telling the truth?

The Latest | Israeli strike kills 33 in a Gaza school filled with displaced families

The Israeli military said it had targeted Hamas operatives at a U.N.-run school complex. Palestinian officials said the dead included women and children.