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Israel/Hamas conflict

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Again - for anyone on this board who purports to claim about the well being of Gazans, they should be screaming from the rooftops for the dwindling Hamas leadership hiding in tunnels to unconditionally surrender, release the remaining hostages and to stop firing rockets into Israel.

That way we can stop the violence and begin the long and painful road of rebuilding infrastructure and trust.

Instead, we have keyboard warriors in the West willing to fight to the last Palestinian despite being it being a totally lost cause. It's as if these people hate Jews more than they love Arabs - which is one of the biggest problems in the Muslim/Arab world thanks to decades of UN sponsored propaganda.
 
Certainly all the righteous selectively anti-Israelis here, anti-semitic campus protesters, and those similar otherwise on social media were out in equal or greater force with the Yemeni war on civilians and many other comparable modern topics. Oh right, no they were not.

As of the end of 2021 there were an estimated 377,000 dead per the UN (in a much, much less densely populated environment):

Nearly 60 percent of deaths will have been caused by indirect impacts such as lack of safe water, hunger and disease, it said, suggesting that fighting will have directly killed over 150,000 people.
Most of those killed by the war's indirect effects were "young children who are especially vulnerable to under- and malnutrition," said the UN Development Programme report.
"In 2021, a Yemeni child under the age of five dies every nine minutes because of the conflict," it found.
A Saudi-led coalition intervened in Yemen in early 2015 to shore up the government after Iran-backed Huthi fighters seized the capital Sanaa months before.


Yemen war will have killed 377,000 by year's end: UN

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_civil_war_(2014–present)#:~:text=The UN announced on 2,facilities due to the war.
 
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Where were these same folks for Bashar al-Assad’s enduring regime? Where were all the campus protests? Where is his arrest warrant with the ICC?

>300,000 Syrian civilians died as a result of him against their 2011 Arab spring pro-democracy uprising. Nearly half of their ~14 million population fled their homes. Numerous civilians were also killed by Russian cluster bombs and rocket attacks on displacement camps according to the UN Human Rights Council. Chemical weapons, torture, arbitrary arrests, looted homes and confiscated property...Where was the outrage among those same anti-semites at these war crimes?
 
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When Pearl Harbor was sneak attacked by the Japanese, American fought back with terrible vengence. We fought and killed until they were unable to attack anymore. Israel is just doing the same thing. People and countries are allowed to fight back when targeted and attacked. They need to protect their borders and lives of their Citizens.
Similar thing is going on right now in Ukraine as well.

Ukraine, Russia, and Imperial Japan were all state actors. Their militiaries are arms of their governments. All those countries to one degree or another have/has their own military manufacturing sector of their economies. In the case of Japan (and Germany), the Allies destroyed the ability of their enemies to produce more weapons of war.

Hamas is essentially a insurgent army. Fighting an insurgency is very different than fighting a state.

I watched an interview with Bret Stephens over the weekend. I would post the interview, but 1/2 to 2/3 got pretty deep into American politics which would probably tick off the moderators.

He is rabidly pro-Israel, but extremely critical of the way Israel is conducting the war. He has interviewed top people within the IDF and in his opinion they are approaching this and other conflicts as a counter-terrorism operation. As he puts it, Israel believes they need to mow the lawn from time to time. But he pointed out that this is a counter-insurgency operation which needs a different approach and a long term occupation plan.

Israel is likely going to fight until they feel Hamas is degraded enough, then they will pull out and leave Gaza. Hamas or some other organization will just come back and it will likely be even stronger the next time because they will have a lot more recruits on the back of the last war.

I don't have a problem with the Jewish people, nor do I have a problem with Israel existing, but Israel's conduct of this war has been dumb and long term I think they are just making the problem worse. IMO, Netanyahu has been very bad for Israel.
 
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...I watched an interview with Bret Stephens over the weekend. I would post the interview, but 1/2 to 2/3 got pretty deep into American politics which would probably tick off the moderators.

He is rabidly pro-Israel, but extremely critical of the way Israel is conducting the war. He has interviewed top people within the IDF and in his opinion they are approaching this and other conflicts as a counter-terrorism operation. As he puts it, Israel believes they need to mow the lawn from time to time. But he pointed out that this is a counter-insurgency operation which needs a different approach and a long term occupation plan.

Israel is likely going to fight until they feel Hamas is degraded enough, then they will pull out and leave Gaza. Hamas or some other organization will just come back and it will likely be even stronger the next time because they will have a lot more recruits on the back of the last war...

Have followed Stephens for a while. He is pro-Israel, but certainly not rabid, very much for incessant work towards a 2-state solution. He is also pro-Ukraine in Russia's war against them, relevant to another active thread in this forum. Stephens is moderate/right leaning, but part of an old/dying political guard.

Here is a great interview with him just a few hours ago on this topic:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/28/...e_code=1.vk0.SKhp.mXYJjfkyQXx8&smid=url-share


Here is an excellent summary of an interview Stephens did on the Hamas war on Israel earlier this month:

Bret Stephens: Cease-fire will fail as long as Hamas exists — Harvard Gazette

...I don't have a problem with the Jewish people, nor do I have a problem with Israel existing, but Israel's conduct of this war has been dumb and long term I think they are just making the problem worse. IMO, Netanyahu has been very bad for Israel...

Although I consider myself left of center on balance, I am not a member of either of our political parties, including that they are both subject to brainless group think on one or more important issues.

I am deeply sympathetic to your point here and struggle with this daily. It feels wrong, like Israel's current government can do significantly better. But from others on the left of the spectrum I often share, I thus far have heard no coherent argument for a better approach. Stephens talks about this conundrum Israel and Ukraine face in their approach in the NY Times article linked above. I have a few ideas, but would not necessarily consider them massive game changers.

What would be your approach? What would you have Israel do differently?
 
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Ukraine, Russia, and Imperial Japan were all state actors. Their militiaries are arms of their governments. All those countries to one degree or another have/has their own military manufacturing sector of their economies. In the case of Japan (and Germany), the Allies destroyed the ability of their enemies to produce more weapons of war.

Hamas is essentially a insurgent army. Fighting an insurgency is very different than fighting a state.

I watched an interview with Bret Stephens over the weekend. I would post the interview, but 1/2 to 2/3 got pretty deep into American politics which would probably tick off the moderators.

He is rabidly pro-Israel, but extremely critical of the way Israel is conducting the war. He has interviewed top people within the IDF and in his opinion they are approaching this and other conflicts as a counter-terrorism operation. As he puts it, Israel believes they need to mow the lawn from time to time. But he pointed out that this is a counter-insurgency operation which needs a different approach and a long term occupation plan.

Israel is likely going to fight until they feel Hamas is degraded enough, then they will pull out and leave Gaza. Hamas or some other organization will just come back and it will likely be even stronger the next time because they will have a lot more recruits on the back of the last war.

I don't have a problem with the Jewish people, nor do I have a problem with Israel existing, but Israel's conduct of this war has been dumb and long term I think they are just making the problem worse. IMO, Netanyahu has been very bad for Israel.
Timely post I saw on X relating to your post. This is the first time I’ve seen a step by step proposed approach to achieving the outcome Israel seeks. Too long and detailed to summaize, but I will post some snippets.

11. Israel's goal in the Gaza Strip is to make it like Area A in the West Bank, where Israel can operate as needed without a permanent presence or political control. Israel will maintain a no-man's land along the border and will ensure the IDF can act based on military needs.

12. Israel seeks local leadership in Gaza willing to take responsibility, secured by Israel to prevent Hamas intimidation. This will only be possible after thoroughly dismantling Hamas's capabilities.

 
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Have followed Stephens for a while. He is pro-Israel, but certainly not rabid, very much for incessant work towards a 2-state solution. He is also pro-Ukraine in Russia's war against them, relevant to another active thread in this forum. Stephens is moderate/right leaning, but part of an old/dying political guard.

Here is a great interview with him just a few hours ago on this topic:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/28/...e_code=1.vk0.SKhp.mXYJjfkyQXx8&smid=url-share


Here is an excellent summary of an interview Stephens did on the Hamas war on Israel earlier this month:

Bret Stephens: Cease-fire will fail as long as Hamas exists — Harvard Gazette

I thought his US politics were a bit blind to the realities we're facing and was somewhat overly partisan. I thought his analysis of the Israeli situation was fairly good.

Although I consider myself left of center on balance, I am not a member of either of our political parties, including that they are both subject to brainless group think on one or more important issues.

I'm a centrist who is not a member of either party too, but one party has gone off the deep end IMO. The other has problems, but nothing worse than has existed in US politics for generations.

I am deeply sympathetic to your point here and struggle with this daily. It feels wrong, like Israel's current government can do significantly better. But from others on the left of the spectrum I often share, I thus far have heard no coherent argument for a better approach. Stephens talks about this conundrum Israel and Ukraine face in their approach in the NY Times article linked above. I have a few ideas, but would not necessarily consider them massive game changers.

What would be your approach? What would you have Israel do differently?

At the start of this thread I made the point that the Israel/Palestine situation is the closest thing to a Kobiashi Maru scenario in world politics today.

Israel's use of dumb bombs in Gaza has been a mistake. They needed to use much more precise munitions. In a situation where the enemy is in close to civilians, the most precise weapons need to be used to get the enemy and reduce civilian casualties.

Public opinion is also very important in this kind of war. From the start they should have been telling anyone who would listen that they were doing everything they could to reduce civilian casualties, but because Hamas stations their people around civilians, it's going to be very tough to get Hamas fighters without killing some civilians.

Israel has completely surrendered the battlefield of the mind on TikTok allowing pro-Palestinian content creators to make lots of videos championing their cause without any response from Israel. They have sold Palestine to the youth of the west.

This is an insurgency and the biggest battlefield in an insurgency is the hearts and minds of the public. In that fight, Israel is losing and Palestine is winning. Hamas is going to lose the battle for Gaza on the ground, but the insurgency goes on. Hamas has won more hearts and minds in Gaza than they lost in this war. That was the entire intent of the Oct 7 attack and Israel has completely missed that.
 
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Israel's conduct of this war has been dumb and long term I think they are just making the problem worse.

They needed to use much more precise munitions. In a situation where the enemy is in close to civilians, the most precise weapons need to be used to get the enemy and reduce civilian casualties.

From the Bret Stephens article

“Terms like “precision weapons” can foster the notion that it’s possible for modern militaries to hit only intended targets. But that’s a fantasy, especially against enemies like Hamas, whose method is to fight and hide among the innocent so that it may be rescued from destruction by the world’s concern for the innocent.”

and

“In World War II, Allied bombers killed an estimated 10,000 civilians in the Netherlands, 60,000 in France, 60,000 in Italy and hundreds of thousands of Germans. . . . We pursued an identical policy against Japan, where bombardment killed, according to some estimates, nearly one million civilians.
. . .
The bravery of the American bomber crews is celebrated in shows like Apple TV+’s “Masters of the Air.” Nations, especially democracies, often have second thoughts about the means they use to win existential wars. But they also tend to canonize leaders who, faced with the awful choice of evils that every war presents, nonetheless chose morally compromised victories over morally pure defeats.”

A victory over such belligerents as current Russia and Hamas, like the victory over the Nazis and the Japanese, makes the world a better place in the long run. Such victories come at a high cost for all concerned, but rewarding such belligerence by allowing it to continue is the immoral path.
 
From the Bret Stephens article

“Terms like “precision weapons” can foster the notion that it’s possible for modern militaries to hit only intended targets. But that’s a fantasy, especially against enemies like Hamas, whose method is to fight and hide among the innocent so that it may be rescued from destruction by the world’s concern for the innocent.”

and

“In World War II, Allied bombers killed an estimated 10,000 civilians in the Netherlands, 60,000 in France, 60,000 in Italy and hundreds of thousands of Germans. . . . We pursued an identical policy against Japan, where bombardment killed, according to some estimates, nearly one million civilians.
. . .
The bravery of the American bomber crews is celebrated in shows like Apple TV+’s “Masters of the Air.” Nations, especially democracies, often have second thoughts about the means they use to win existential wars. But they also tend to canonize leaders who, faced with the awful choice of evils that every war presents, nonetheless chose morally compromised victories over morally pure defeats.”

A victory over such belligerents as current Russia and Hamas, like the victory over the Nazis and the Japanese, makes the world a better place in the long run. Such victories come at a high cost for all concerned, but rewarding such belligerence by allowing it to continue is the immoral path.

The Germans and Japanese didn't have TikTok and the Allies were not fighting an insurgent force.

Civilians are going to die in wars. Especially wars like the one in Gaza. That can't be prevented. What can be done is to do all you can to limit civilian casualties, which precision munitions helps you do. A smart bomb will kill civilians, but it's going to get a lot closer to the intended target than a dumb bomb. A lot of the civilian casualties from daylight bombing in WW II happened because the US was using dumb bombs dropped from high altitudes by bombardiers who wanted to get rid of their bomb load and get the hell out of the flak zone over the target.

There was a phenomenon known as walk back. The first bomber might drop their load near the intended target, say a factory, then the next bomber would drop a little bit before the first and so on all the way back until the tail end bombers were dropping their load thousands of yards short of the target. In the age of jets dropping dumb bombs got even less accurate because instead of dropping the bombs from a plane flying 150 mph, they are being dropped at 600 mph. At the increased speed a variation of a few ms on toggling the bomb switch makes a big difference on where the bomb lands.

I haven't seen Masters of the Air (it's on the list to see one of these days), but I probably know more about WW II military history than any other time period.

Fighting a state military is different from fighting an insurgent force. It's something most military historians understand, but few others do. The US lost Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan because it was fighting an insurgent army and didn't understand how to win that kind of war. It still doesn't. An inside military fighting an insurgency by militants within their own country such as El Salvador or Nicaragua has some chance of winning. At the end of the day the government forces are the legitimate government of the country and the rebels are rebelling against the state. There are going to be a fair number of civilians who side with the government.

An outside force trying to put down an insurgency in territory that is not seen as theirs is vastly tougher. They are the invaders and the people of the territory are more sympathetic to the insurgents because the insurgents are their people. This day in age, an insurgency against an outside force almost always has some sort of state sponsor keeping the insurgents in the fight. The state forces are playing whack a mole. The state forces can win any stand up fight, but the insurgents conduct hit and run warfare. They blow something up, shoot a few people with a sniper, or something else similar, and then disappear into the native population.

The state forces get twitchy because they never know who is just a civilian and who is an insurgent masquerading as a civilian. An attack could happen anytime, anywhere.

I know someone who was a non-combatant in the USAF in Vietnam. He got three purple hearts in one month. He was installing radar installations on outlying islands and the first two came from guerilla attacks at night. The third happened in the middle of the day on the large US air base near Saigon. He was minding his own business and got shot in the jaw by a sniper with a long range rifle.

Israel is not going to get rid of Hamas. They have or will kill most of this generation of Hamas fighters, but the war has recruited many more who will be ready to go in a couple of years. Israel thinks of these sorts of operations as mowing the lawn, but they are inadvertently fertilizing while mowing. That's their biggest error.
 
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Everyone is making comments on how to conduct a war...but the experts on the local situation are the Israelis....they are not fighting a foreign expeditionary war with insurgents on distant shores...these are their neighbors...extremely close neighbors. Everyone forgets one important thing...Hamas has already lost...their attack with impunity was supposed to be a rallying cry for their sister groups to join them on multiple fronts...but they chose to sit on their hands....the goal of distancing neighboring countries from Israel has completely backfired...and most importantly...they have demonstrated to friend, foe and client state that Iran is a paper tiger.
Their only upside is to get firm support from a tiny amount of western radicalized youth (some of whom will go on to other causes or grow out of it)...and unflinching support from European left wing politicians.
Sure, Israel will always have to be vigilant....but that is the perilous state that the whole western world is in.
 
Everyone is making comments on how to conduct a war...but the experts on the local situation are the Israelis....they are not fighting a foreign expeditionary war with insurgents on distant shores...these are their neighbors...extremely close neighbors.

That's a devil advocate argument. Here is a quite good summary of what could have been done better for better optics:


Folks just want to be on "their own side" rather than "the right side" of history.
 
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Here are a few of my ideas for a better strategic approach from Israel in navigating their Kobiashi Maru scenario:

Learn from your enemies and outsmart them in geopolitics and counter-religiofascism in the battle of hearts and minds:

-Counter Arabic islamofascist/State run media such a Al Jazeera by creating a comparably funded Israeli media powerhouse that correctly informs the public on such things as the high urban density casualty dilemmas (including comparable conflicts) and why even high precision weapons result in many civilian casualties there, number of civilians killed by the Allies over the last century, overwhelming number of civilians killed by Bashar al-Assad, Saudis/Iran/Yemen in recent years, etc.

-Counter liberal group think: somehow it is Israels obligation to thoroughly feed the enemy that perpetually seeks the genocide of Israelis and started the war with them. Their Hamas regime is a large part of their population with an absurd numbers of tunnels with years of food and water stockpiled there and who is primarily if not exclusively responsible for feeding their population. Next in line, the islamofascist governments/people that surround Israel should also be massively feeding the Gazans. Yet despite all that, to outmaneuver this political force, Israel should flood Gaza with food and show footage every day of truckloads of such Israeli materials going into Gaza and keep meticulous numbers of how Israel is still sending in more food than anyone else. Regularly show footage of Hamas stealing from humanitarian aid trucks and how there is nothing standing out in Gaza regarding malnutrition comparing other conflicts and regions. Hold press conferences there every week and broadcast it all.

-Explain daily on this newly created Israeli State media who is actually responsible for this war and why. Cover the puppet master Iran incessantly - as it seems strangely only Israelis know/understand this extremely relevant history. Cover daily how Egypt either purposefully enabled or tacitly allowed the smuggling of weapons and weapons making materials across their border with Gaza through tunnels underneath and/or with purported humanitarian convoys. Demand Iran, Egypt, Qatar, and others who without them there would be no war on Israel, be held accountable by the UN/ICC before knocking on Israel's door.
 
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This is an insurgency and the biggest battlefield in an insurgency is the hearts and minds of the public. In that fight, Israel is losing and Palestine is winning. Hamas is going to lose the battle for Gaza on the ground, but the insurgency goes on. Hamas has won more hearts and minds in Gaza than they lost in this war. That was the entire intent of the Oct 7 attack and Israel has completely missed that.
Winning hearts and minds - My FOOT !!

The Gazans and the Muslim world's hearts and minds are deeply, very deeply entrenched in killing Jews (and even Hindus and Christians if opportunity presents). Any number of concessions and friendly gestures short of entire Jewish community getting killed and wiped out, with their women taken as sex slaves and converted, will not win the Muslim world's heart and minds. You may disagree all you want, but this is the deep reality.

We should dispassionately think where we are drifting. Hindus should not harbour anger in their hearts against Muslims even if the latter wanted to destroy them. Even if the Muslims want to kill us all we should face death bravely. If they established their rule after killing Hindus we would be ushering in a new world by sacrificing our lives. - MK Gandhi

Gandhi (who himself was a Hindu) wanted Hindus to be thrown as sacrificial lambs in any communal riots, just to appease the murderers. He was of the opinion, that once the murderers lust has been satisfied, then the killings will stop and peace will be ushered. What an Idiot ! If you give in and appease the perpetrators, you get instant peace which is just temporary. You are basically laying a foundation for a larger problem in the future.

History has shown us over and over again, that a large Muslim community cannot co-exist peacefully as close neighbors in proximity with people of another faith. Israel should create the buffer necessary if they need to be left alone and live peacefully. It is time Egypt and other Muslim countries open their borders for Gazans to move in as refugees and eventually citizenship, and Gaza be left empty as a safe buffer for Israel. Not much different from how fleeing Jews were welcomed in US and other European countries after WW2.

China has got it right with Uyghurs.
 
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Bunch of frauds and the leftists frauds in the US are supporting them. Birds of the same feather.
As far as I can tell from some quick searching, that's a video of kids in Jordan in 2020 protesting COVID lockdowns.

Here's the same video, minus the lying captions, posted in 2020:
That's the earliest posting I can find. Also that sounds like a police siren. I'm pretty damn sure Gazans bnever had air raid sirens, since the entire goal of their war is to get civilians killed and show dead babies on the news.

Get the hell off social media. Stop reading Twitter and Instagram for your "news". There are plenty of actual lies by the Gazans, but you're just feeding from the sewage line and thinking it's Michelin 3 star fare. Are you going to call this "Anti-feminazi. Anti-Libtards" Twitter poster a fraud too? That's what she is.