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Israel/Hamas conflict

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There are some absurd claims for various things out there. Claims that things that can't exist are real based on spurious evidence. But the argument you outline above actually does hold together if you look at it from the angle. It is a fact that the Israelis did move back into the area after being gone for 2000 years. That looks like colonization to some.

The history of the state of Israel from 1947 had a phase where they were scrabbling to hold off other states from overrunning them. At that time they were the underdog. Boomers and GenX grew up with that. By the time the Millennials came along, Israel had the upper hand and they were fighting an insurgency.

Most people are terrible at history that happened before they were born. To a lot of people if they didn't experience it, it didn't really happen. They may accept it happened, but abstractions have a degree of unreality to them.

I am not one of those people and I struggle to grok that way of experiencing the world, but I've seen it many times.



From all I've seen Biden and the bulk of elected Democrats know that supporting Israel is important. There are a few who disagree, but the bulk believe in supporting Israel. There are also quite a few who believe the Palestinians need humanitarian aid.



There are other cases this is from 2015
The 27 politicians who raised the most money — and still lost

Jeb Bush raised over $100 million and went nowhere.

Political affiliation changes less than people think. Pew did a study on who was president when a cohort turned 18 tended to predict which party they voted for the rest of their lives. A fairly popular president would win over a majority of that cohort for life. An unpopular president would swing that cohort to the other party. Not talking about all here, just a majority of the cohort.

If you don't think contributions matter to DC politicians, then you don't know how the cake is made.

I didn't say anything about people changing party affiliation. You can shift in your beliefs without changing parties.

Jews were not gone from Israel for 2000 years. There have been Jews living there for millenia. Here's a little refresher course for you:

 
Jews were not gone from Israel for 2000 years. There have been Jews living there for millenia. Here's a little refresher course for you:

Indeed. I expected much more appreciation of historic details from the otherwise very learned and instructive @wdolson

That said, I think the history is completely irrelevant except to score rhetorical points. The borders and arrangements are what they are now, and the main injustice to be addressed is the injustice of October 7.
 
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That said, I think the history is completely irrelevant except to score rhetorical points. The borders and arrangements are what they are now, and the main injustice to be addressed is the injustice of October 7.

I think we are free to pick and choose what injustice we want to look at and discard what we deem irrelevant or unattractive to our agenda. /s
 
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If you don't think contributions matter to DC politicians, then you don't know how the cake is made.

I didn't say anything about people changing party affiliation. You can shift in your beliefs without changing parties.

Jews were not gone from Israel for 2000 years. There have been Jews living there for millenia. Here's a little refresher course for you:


Sorry, I miswrote. There were Jewish people all over the Middle East up until the 20th century. I have written about this before.

Between Muslim laws about non-Muslims not being allowed to hold any government post in Mulsim kingdoms and other regions and Jewish people being a fairly small minority. There were Jewish people in Palestine, but they were powerless. That began to change when more Jewish people started moving in during the early 20th century and then they took power over what is now the state of Israel in 1947.

The Palestine area hasn't had control over their own territory for a long time. The Ottomans took over in the 1500s, but the rulers were other Muslims. The British became the rulers after WW I, but they weren't there that long (compared to everyone else over the centuries). The Jewish people went from a powerless minority to the dominant group running the place over the course of a few decades.

When the Jews were a powerless minority, they were pretty much left alone to do their thing. As they began to become a larger portion of the population, tensions began to rise between the two populations. A lot of Jewish settlers were content to buy their land from the Arabs living there, but as the Jewish population grew, there were also those who just took land they wanted.

Some of the settlers were treated non-Jews around them badly, inflaming tensions that were growing because the Arabs felt like they were becoming a minority in their own homeland.

Even when there isn't violence tensions can come about due to a new population moving into an area. I went through it once when I was a kid. I grew up in a part of Los Angeles that already had a minority majority population. My town had a large east Asian population with a very large concentration of Hispanics starting only a few blocks from where I lived.

But starting around 1977 Chinese began to flee Taiwan and my town was the most desirable destination. These were wealthy immigrants. Some were the descendants of Chaing Kai Chek's lieutenants who had escaped to Taiwan with their wealth and others were neuvo riche who suddenly got rich when their farms were bought up to build factories. All of them brought wealth with them.

I think it was mostly the old money who brought the attitude, but some of the immigrants liked to look down on the rest of the population as untermenchen. They even did this to people already living there who were ethnically Chinese.

Initially the first people to move in were immigrants in a community where everyone was from somewhere different and it was no big deal, but as they grew in number and some of the immigrants took the superior attitude, tensions grew. There was an increase in gang activity, but they mostly just messed with one another. There wasn't any other violence, but our sleepy suburb got a lot more tense. There were a lot of ethnic jokes told about the immigrants and non-immigrants found they weren't allowed to shop in the stores owned by the immigrants. A friend of my mother's was told "we don't sell to your kind" and kicked out of a store.

Add in a bit of violence to this mix and you have the kind of situation that was happening in Palestine by the end of WW II.

As far as the Muslims are concerned, the Israelis are colonists. What the Israelis have done has some echoes of what the Christian Crusaders did 1000 years ago. Stories that are still told in the west, but from a western perspective. But they are widely taught in the Muslim world these last 1000 years with a different perspective. And the state of Israel is taught as a new Crusade.
 
“What the Israelis have done has some echoes of what the Christian Crusaders did 1000 years ago”

only zealots/backward societies worry about what happened a 1000 years ago.

My history books suggest the Crusades were a check on expansionist Muslim power that had been making inroads into Europe. Simple source-From Britannica: “The Crusades slowed the advance of Islamic power and may have prevented western Europe from falling under Muslim suzerainty.”
 
“What the Israelis have done has some echoes of what the Christian Crusaders did 1000 years ago”

only zealots/backward societies worry about what happened a 1000 years ago.

Whether it is or not backward, that is a concern of modern Arabs. Dismissing these things is failing to understand what the opposition believes.

There are a lot of groups around the world today spouting what I believe to be garbage, but they believe these things and they are acting on them. Failing to recognize that they are acting on these beliefs puts those defending against these people on the back foot when action is needed.

My history books suggest the Crusades were a check on expansionist Muslim power that had been making inroads into Europe. Simple source-From Britannica: “The Crusades slowed the advance of Islamic power and may have prevented western Europe from falling under Muslim suzerainty.”

That is possible, but that is also the Euro-centric view of history. To the Muslims who fought the Crusaders in the Middle East, they were fighting to expel the invaders from territory they considered their home at that point. The areas that were most contested during the Crusades were parts of the Middle East that had been under Islamic rule for around 400 years when the Crusades started.

The people conducting the invasion had no ethnic historical ties to the region other than some religious connections.

400 years before today the British were just beginning to colonize the region that would become the eastern seaboard of the United States. The Spanish were the predominant power in the New World. If the Chinese suddenly showed up in the United States and set up a colony in California, the US would vigorously fight back. Even though 400 years ago California mostly belonged to the Native Americans.

One Muslim power or another has controlled Palestine from the 600s until the Crusades, than again after the Crusades until 1918. Since then it has been controlled by what they see as European settlers. Israel may not consider themselves European, and the westerners may not think of them that way, but Israel's culture is European in many ways and the most influential settlers in Israel came from Europe and the United States (though there are many Israelis who came from other places too).
 
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”Religion of peace” has been killing non-believers for over a thousand years as they invaded lands. It was the basis for the Crusades and why Europe pushed back.

Anyone in the Middle East world or protesting in London, NY, etc over the atrocities in Nigeria?

 
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Whether it is or not backward, that is a concern of modern Arabs. Dismissing these things is failing to understand what the opposition believes.
Nazis believed Jews were subhuman and had all sorts of "scientific" and historical grievances to justify their bigotry and mass murder. Should we take these views seriously and try to "understand" the the POV of Nazism? Should we not dismiss Putin and Russia's B.S. claims on Ukraine either?

Long past time the "Rest of the World" told the Muslim/Arab world to grow up and stop blaming all of the massive ills and backwardness of the Middle East on the existence of Jews in Israel.
 
That is possible, but that is also the Euro-centric view of history. To the Muslims who fought the Crusaders in the Middle East, they were fighting to expel the invaders from territory they considered their home at that point. The areas that were most contested during the Crusades were parts of the Middle East that had been under Islamic rule for around 400 years when the Crusades started.

During those 400 years, Islam was trying to conquer all of Europe with constant invasions and battles - and nearly succeeded which would have changed the entire course of World history.

Muslims complaining that Europe finally fought back against hundreds of years of Islamic Jihad conquest is about as rich as Hamas now complaining that Israel is fighting back after the barbarity of 10/7.

Why do we even entertain their hypocrisy? Islam was the ultimate colonial and conquering force of the last millenia and the Islamic religion simply does not allow conquered "Islamic Land" to ever be given up. Hence Islam's continued refusal to ever recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state on a tiny scrap of land in the Middle East.

crusades.JPG
 
Nazis believed Jews were subhuman and had all sorts of "scientific" and historical grievances to justify their bigotry and mass murder. Should we take these views seriously and try to "understand" the the POV of Nazism? Should we not dismiss Putin and Russia's B.S. claims on Ukraine either?

Long past time the "Rest of the World" told the Muslim/Arab world to grow up and stop blaming all of the massive ills and backwardness of the Middle East on the existence of Jews in Israel.

There is a big difference between understanding how someone thinks and believing them. A lot of mistakes are made during wars when one side doesn't understand their enemy.

During those 400 years, Islam was trying to conquer all of Europe with constant invasions and battles - and nearly succeeded which would have changed the entire course of World history.

Muslims complaining that Europe finally fought back against hundreds of years of Islamic Jihad conquest is about as rich as Hamas now complaining that Israel is fighting back after the barbarity of 10/7.

Why do we even entertain their hypocrisy? Islam was the ultimate colonial and conquering force of the last millenia and the Islamic religion simply does not allow conquered "Islamic Land" to ever be given up. Hence Islam's continued refusal to ever recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state on a tiny scrap of land in the Middle East.

View attachment 1003447

Note the difference from where the battles were fought. A lot of battles of Islamic conquest fought in Europe, yet all the battles of the Crusades fought in the Middle East.

I would also argue that the Europeans were much more expansive in their conquests in the last millennia. Europeans fought wars of conquest on every inhabited continent in the world in the last millennia and left their mark. There are only two continents that are not predominantly Christian or post-Christian cultures. Three continents have majority populations that are predominantly European, or a large majority of the population are part European.
 
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Yes war is messy and civilians die, even under the rules of international law.

That’s is why a civilized people generally doesn’t start wars, and arranges their government to not have leaders that start wars, and generally doesn’t celebrate the one-on-one individualized terror that starts wars.

Just as Germany and Japan, and so many before them, learned from their defeat to be peaceful, maybe there is hope for people in Gaza to choose to be peaceful and use their resources for food and shelter and education instead of terrorizing neighboring music festivals and co-op farms.