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Israel/Hamas conflict

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As always, European problem is a world problem. They had a problem with having Jews in their countries, and they gave them Israel to escape to, and causing a problem in the middle east, and made sure the rest of the world aligns with that approach.

To be fair, the "problem" with Jews in Europe was predominantly an issue created by the larger Christian population. The Jewish people generally wanted to be left alone. Before the modern era some unscrupulous monarchs did use the Jewish population to their own ends which didn't help engender any good will with the general population. Non-Christians were allowed to do some things Christians weren't (such as working on Sundays and loaning money for interest) and monarchs would take advantage of that.

It's easy to heap blame on one side or the other in this because both sides have had bad actors that have perpetuated the conflict. It's easy to isolate the actions of one side and say they are to blame. IMO it's been a constant ratcheting up and down for years. One side's bad actors does something, the other side reacts, the first side reacts to that, etc. Eventually things cool off for a while until the cycle starts again.

In reality the majority of the population on both sides would prefer peace. Most people prefer to be left alone to live their lives. But because a minority has to keep doing things that get a reaction from the other peace is impossible. The bad actors on both sides have no interest in a two state solution and do everything they can to sabotage any movement towards a two state solution.

The situation reminds me of the Star Trek TOS episode "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"
Let That Be Your Last Battlefield - Wikipedia

The fight is deadly serious to those in the middle of it, but incomprehensible to those on the outside looking in.
 
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As always, European problem is a world problem. They had a problem with having Jews in their countries, and they gave them Israel to escape to, and causing a problem in the middle east, and made sure the rest of the world aligns with that approach.
I believe that you have confused Europe with Nazi Germany.
 
I believe that you have confused Europe with Nazi Germany.

The history of antisemitism in Europe pre-dates Nazi Germany by centuries. It goes back the late Roman Empire. The Jews were in Europe thanks to a Roman resettlement program after the 70 AD rebellion.

Most modern countries in Europe have a history with antisemitism.
 
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Unlike in Gaza and the West Bank (let alone majority of the Muslim/Arab world) where their dictators remain in power for life, Israel has frequent elections and changes in leadership. Some are more conciliatory than others. Before Netanyahu became everyone's bogeyman, Ariel Sharon was the Israeli haters #1 enemy - yet he was the one that gave all of Gaza back.

Before Hamas' barbarism on 10/7 destroyed the peace process for generations, I could provide you thousands of examples of Israeli politicians, leaders and man on the street interviews with Israelis who are open to a 2 state solution.

Can you name even 2 prominent Palestinians who could be considered "Peace Partners" today that would publically say they accept Israel living in some borders in Israel?

Also - we can thank John Kerry, along with Obama and Biden for foolishly trying to sideline Saudi Arabia and Gulf State's normalization with Israel to suck up to Iran who is funding Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis causing this current conflict. So I don't take anything John Kerry says about the Region with great confidence.
Rabin was murdered by a terrorist who shared his ideology with members of the current Israeli government. Since then there was absolutely no support for a two state solution any more.
As to "giving Gaza back", it was just too inconvenient and costly to protect a rather small Jewish population there. It was far more convenient to turn Gaza into some kind of prison. As the West Bank proves, being a compliant partner doesn't earn the Palestinians anything.
 
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The history of antisemitism in Europe pre-dates Nazi Germany by centuries. It goes back the late Roman Empire. The Jews were in Europe thanks to a Roman resettlement program after the 70 AD rebellion.

Most modern countries in Europe have a history with antisemitism.
While that is certainly true, the Nazis industrialized the killing of Jews and forced a mass migration out of Europe.
 
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While that is certainly true, the NAZIs industrialized the killing of Jews and forcing a mass migration out of Europe.

They were very systematic and organized about it. Included in their project were also Romani (gypsies) and any other undesirables including homosexuals and anyone who was born disabled. There are now more Romani in places where the Germans couldn't reach than there are in Central Europe where they originated.

I once knew an American Romani. The part of her family who didn't emigrate to the US and remained in Europe are completely gone.
 
To be fair, the "problem" with Jews in Europe was predominantly an issue created by the larger Christian population. The Jewish people generally wanted to be left alone. Before the modern era some unscrupulous monarchs did use the Jewish population to their own ends which didn't help engender any good will with the general population. Non-Christians were allowed to do some things Christians weren't (such as working on Sundays and loaning money for interest) and monarchs would take advantage of that.

It's easy to heap blame on one side or the other in this because both sides have had bad actors that have perpetuated the conflict. It's easy to isolate the actions of one side and say they are to blame. IMO it's been a constant ratcheting up and down for years. One side's bad actors does something, the other side reacts, the first side reacts to that, etc. Eventually things cool off for a while until the cycle starts again.

In reality the majority of the population on both sides would prefer peace. Most people prefer to be left alone to live their lives. But because a minority has to keep doing things that get a reaction from the other peace is impossible. The bad actors on both sides have no interest in a two state solution and do everything they can to sabotage any movement towards a two state solution.

The situation reminds me of the Star Trek TOS episode "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"
Let That Be Your Last Battlefield - Wikipedia

The fight is deadly serious to those in the middle of it, but incomprehensible to those on the outside looking in.
Too long of a read. I stand by what I said. Europeans are to blame for this crisis. They need to take back the Jews to Europe and let the original people of the land stay there.
 
I believe that you have confused Europe with Nazi Germany.
Obviously the Holocaust and WWII were essential for the establishment of Israel, but Zionism started in the late 19th century, Balfour promised Palestine to the Zionist movement in 1917, and many Jewish immigrants to Palestine moved there from Poland and from Russian controlled territories in Eastern Europe during the 1920s, well before the Nazis seized power.
 
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BTW, anyone who is interested in the Jewish emigration from Germany to Palestine after the Nazis seized power may want to read up on the Transfer Agreement between the Jewish Agency for Palestine and Nazi Germany, also known as the Haavara Agreement.

 
Heart breaking.

But can we be absolutely sure they were fired upon by the IDF?

Hamas' entire war strategy is to risk and abuse their civilian population to get world sympathy since it is impossible for them to defeat Israel militarily.
Sure, we don't see the Israeli soldier actually killing the Palestinian man. Perhaps if we see the bullet used, that would be a tell.

1. Considering previous reports of civilians shot by Israel army (like the ones taking cover in several hospital and a church comes to mind)
2. Let's not forget killing of 3 Israeli soldiers while waving white flag
3. After murdering that man,, shooting continues while people are trying to take cover. Can there be that many hamas militants shooting for that long while there are 10s of 1000s of Israeli soldiers in Gaza? I find that hard to believe.

Based on above points, I'd argue that it is more likely the killing was done by an Israeli soldier.
 
Sure, we don't see the Israeli soldier actually killing the Palestinian man. Perhaps if we see the bullet used, that would be a tell.

1. Considering previous reports of civilians shot by Israel army (like the ones taking cover in several hospital and a church comes to mind)
2. Let's not forget killing of 3 Israeli soldiers while waving white flag
3. After murdering that man,, shooting continues while people are trying to take cover. Can there be that many hamas militants shooting for that long while there are 10s of 1000s of Israeli soldiers in Gaza? I find that hard to believe.

Based on above points, I'd argue that it is more likely the killing was done by an Israeli soldier.
Strange how in your mind, all charges against hamas have to be proved...but crimes by IDF can be surmised
 
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BTW, anyone who is interested in the Jewish emigration from Germany to Palestine after the Nazis seized power may want to read up on the Transfer Agreement between the Jewish Agency for Palestine and Nazi Germany, also known as the Haavara Agreement.

Huh… so rather than stand their ground in Germany they preferred to move to another land where other people were already living. Not bad but they (Jews) should have behaved like Persian Zoroastrians that fled to India and promised to make India better. And they did. They have been key leaders in the major achievements of India post independence - eg General Manekshaw, Tata, Godrej, Bhabha (Atomic Energy head), Freddie Mercury, et al
 
they (Jews) should have behaved like Persian Zoroastrians that fled to India and promised to make India better. And they did.
Jews took the barren crappy territory of Israel and made it a thriving democracy contributing value to the world with innovative industry and business amongst neighbors of lingering shitholes with their lazy “inshallah” attitude and the worst of them committing rape jihad on music festivals.

Jews did much better for Israel than the Persian Zoroastrians did for India.
 
Obviously the Holocaust and WWII were essential for the establishment of Israel, but Zionism started in the late 19th century, Balfour promised Palestine to the Zionist movement in 1917, and many Jewish immigrants to Palestine moved there from Poland and from Russian controlled territories in Eastern Europe during the 1920s, well before the Nazis seized power.

Considering the centuries of massive European persecution of Jews, how can the Zionist movement be considered surprising or somehow illegitimate to the founding of Israel?

Jews living in Europe back then were told their eyes and hair are too dark and they should move back to Jerusalem. Today, Jews living in Israel are told their eyes and hair are too light and they should move back to Europe.
 
Jews took the barren crappy territory of Israel and made it a thriving democracy contributing value to the world with innovative industry and business amongst neighbors of lingering shitholes with their lazy “inshallah” attitude and the worst of them committing rape jihad on music festivals.

Jews did much better for Israel than the Persian Zoroastrians did for India.
I agree on al those fronts but at the same time why all these wars? No growth is worth ruining peace. That is what the persians did. They made India sweeter.