It's the Batteries, Stupid!

[JRP3]

This looks promising, and easy to implement:
BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | Battery that 'charges in seconds'

Even though it is cheap, lithium iron phosphate has until now received little attention because lithium cobalt batteries can store slightly more charge for a given weight.
However, the researchers found that their new material does not lose its capacity to charge over time in the way that standard lithium ion batteries do.
That means that the excess material put into standard batteries to compensate for this loss over time is not necessary, leading to smaller, lighter batteries with phenomenal charging rates.
What is more, because there are relatively few changes to the standard manufacturing process, Professor Ceder believes the new battery material could make it to market within two to three years.

This would reduce unfounded lithium concerns even further as less would be required for each cell.

 

[Norbert]

This looks promising, and easy to implement:
BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | Battery that 'charges in seconds'

This would reduce unfounded lithium concerns even further as less would be required for each cell.

This is another article giving different detail information:

Lithium breakthrough could charge batteries in 10 seconds - Ars Technica

"A battery that's sufficient to run an electric vehicle could be fully charged in five minutes—which would make electric vehicles incredibly practical—but doing so would pull 180kW, which is most certainly not practical."

Perhaps the charging station could use a buffer battery which is charged more slowly, but then transmits its charge (maybe with lots of parallel connections) in a short time to the car battery?

 

[stopcrazypp]

This is another article giving different detail information:

Lithium breakthrough could charge batteries in 10 seconds - Ars Technica

"A battery that's sufficient to run an electric vehicle could be fully charged in five minutes—which would make electric vehicles incredibly practical—but doing so would pull 180kW, which is most certainly not practical."

Perhaps the charging station could use a buffer battery which is charged more slowly, but then transmits its charge (maybe with lots of parallel connections) in a short time to the car battery?

180kW might be pushing it, but 60kW chargers are fairly common and have been used safely.
Hyundai Santa Fe EV | GreenCar.com

120kW Posicharge chargers have also been used (still works with a 240V connection):
http://archive.electricdrive.org/in...h=Workshops/Florida+Workshop&file=Goldman.PDF
http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/shared/environment/pge/cleanair/ev4pt2.pdf

Aerovironment has a one off 250kW charger but it isn't that common. This will probably require a 3 phase 480V connection, which might not be that common.

 

[Norbert]

180kW might be pushing it, but 60kW chargers are fairly common and have been used safely.
Hyundai Santa Fe EV | GreenCar.com

120kW Posicharge chargers have also been used (still works with a 240V connection):
http://archive.electricdrive.org/in...h=Workshops/Florida+Workshop&file=Goldman.PDF
http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/shared/environment/pge/cleanair/ev4pt2.pdf

Aerovironment has a one off 250kW charger but it isn't that common. This will probably require a 3 phase 480V connection, which might not be that common.

Interesting links! Such a high power charger would certainly be the best option, wherever it can be installed with the required connection to the grid. It seems they cost around $100,000.

In many other cases, a buffer battery inside the charging station might solve a real problem. It could use cheaper batteries since there is no weight requirement, so hopefully it would cost "just" a few thousand bucks, and perhaps be leased to the smart grid when not needed.

Even a charge station with just a 2 kW or 4kW connection, which can then "pre-charge" itself 24/7, could provide fast charges, definitely increasing the options of how it can be used. The capacity of the buffer battery could be larger than a single full charge, for increased use during "peak" times.

This might make an EV practical where the available power connection(s) would otherwise not have enough (over-night) power for the intended range of use. Or for those who have better (but still not ideal) power connection(s) available, it would allow using more than just one full charge per day, since the charge station can re-charge itself when not used for charging a car (while you are driving).

 

[dpeilow]

We go around this one on a fairly regular basis - and in other threads. Please look back through the charging threads.

In many other cases, a buffer battery inside the charging station might solve a real problem. It could use cheaper batteries since there is no weight requirement, so hopefully it would cost "just" a few thousand bucks, and perhaps be leased to the smart grid when not needed.

Even a charge station with just a 2 kW or 4kW connection, which can then "pre-charge" itself 24/7, could provide fast charges, definitely increasing the options of how it can be used. The capacity of the buffer battery could be larger than a single full charge, for increased use during "peak" times.

There is no real problem. In locations where you might need an "EV service station" for fast charging, you are certainly going to have access to a 100-1000kVA supply. Furthermore, getting that supply brought in is going to be cheaper than setting up a normal gas station.

Low and medium power chargers will be sufficient everywhere else.

 

[Norbert]

We go around this one on a fairly regular basis - and in other threads. Please look back through the charging threads.

Thanks for pointing it out, I had previously gone through several threads about charging but haven't seen any mentioning something like "buffer battery inside the charge station" yet, but will do a search tonight. I did see several threads dealing with the difficulties of having low power connections or 110 V only.

There is no real problem. In locations where you might need an "EV service station" for fast charging, you are certainly going to have access to a 100-1000kVA supply. Furthermore, getting that supply brought in is going to be cheaper than setting up a normal gas station.

Low and medium power chargers will be sufficient everywhere else.

If the new battery mentioned above will not degrade its quality when fast charging, I'm pretty sure I'd be interested in having such a buffer battery if it isn't expensive. For example, it would allow me to make a longer day trip, come home with an almost empty battery, fast charge, and go out for dinner. I'm probably lucky if in my apartment's parking lot I can get even 240V * 70A, I'd expect less.

 

[Serge]

This looks promising, and easy to implement:
BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | Battery that 'charges in seconds'
This would reduce unfounded lithium concerns even further as less would be required for each cell.

Bringing this thread back on topic this announcement was made back in March, but so far there were no additional [public] news or developments. There is an interesting link here, as Dr. Ceder mentioned in the article works in the same MIT department as Dr. Chiang, who happens to be A123's Founder. The chemistry discussed is lithium iron phosphate, which happens to be A123's chemistry of choice. Do they have something interesting coming soon?

 

[raymond]

but doing so would pull 180kW, which is most certainly not practical.

At home charging will be done overnight so 240V/30A is just fine.

On-the-road charging can be done using virtually any amount of power. I used to work at a place where we had an electrically powered 12MW wind tunnel. This amount of power can charge 66 cars simultaneously at 180kW!

How to get 180kW through a cable to your car -- that might be the tricky part.

 

[Norbert]

How to get 180kW through a cable to your car -- that might be the tricky part.

That's on page 12, "Wires and Cables".

http://corridoreis.anl.gov/documents/docs/technical/APT_60861_EVS_TM_08_3.pdf

"The electrical conductivity of QW is higher than that of copper at one-sixth the weight, and QW is twice as strong as steel. A grid made up of such transmission wires would have no line losses or resistance, because the electrons would be forced lengthwise through the tube and could not escape out at other angles."

However, in 2006 it was "estimated that at least 5 years will be needed"...

 

[Norbert]

Do they have something interesting coming soon?

Another online article claimed that A123 is one of the two companies which licensed this. In an NPR interview, Prof. Ceder was skeptical that production could start sooner than in 5 years. ("5" years seems to be a magical number in everything EV).

 

[vfx]

..."5" years seems to be a magical number in everything EV).

Well that's better than "10 years away that Hydrogen is...


Or is it? :smile:

 

[doug]

The "QW" stuff went here: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/off-topic/3389-quantum-wires.html

 

[dpeilow]

Lithium battery recycling facility suffers explosions, fire — Autoblog Green

 

[JRP3]

Oh crap, get ready for the FUD-slide

 

[Serge]

We haven't yet discussed that Dow (a major U.S. chemical company) is moving into battery production "full steam ahead:"
1. Received $161M loan from DOE to build a battery manufacturing plant in Michigan
2. Acquired Kokam America's assets, makers of high capacity lithium polymer batteries licensed from Korea's Kokam Ltd.
3. Also acquired lithium-manganese-nanophosphate technology from Swiss startup HPL (High Power Lithium).

The latter is interesting, as HPL claims that on $/kWh basis technology has a 20% discount over lithium-iron-phosphate. What's also interesting is that according to this March 2009 presentation (last slide) Toyota has been working with HPL since 2003! The plot thickens ...

 

[dpeilow]

Dead battery? Just refill it | Crave - CNET

When does a fuel cell become a battery?

 

[TEG]

Cell Mechanical Construction
Materials and Processing for lithium-ion Batteries

 

[vfx]

John Petersen at Seeking Alpha writes a lot about Batteries:

John Petersen's Articles -- Seeking Alpha

 

[dpeilow]

Liquid metal battery being developed

 

[DaveD]

Liquid metal battery being developed

Here's an article about Sadoway's work that has a bit more information.

Liquid battery big enough for the electric grid?