Jaguar I pace preview yesterday

[Lolly]

To Tesla there are no 'Tesla killers' only car companies that have finally seen the light.

The Mission of Tesla
Elon Musk, Chairman, Product Architect & CEO 18 November 2013
Our goal when we created Tesla a decade ago was the same as it is today: to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport by bringing compelling mass market electric cars to market as soon as possible.​

I'd say job done.

 

[Mark_T]

When comparing prices, don’t forget that Jaguar do not deduct the £4,500 EV grant, but a Tesla do.

 

[McRat]

For a loaded iPace FE in the US it's $87k. This includes ACC and autosteer and all other features.
For a Model S 75D in the US with AP2, red, bigger wheels, sunroof, PUP, it's $97k.

So in the US, it will be cheaper for a fully equipped iPace.

 

[Mark_T]

Maintenance is a bit different as well (in the UK at least).

4 years on a MS - £2,325 if you buy the 4 year plan.
4 years on an i-Pace - £382 (2 year intervals £191 each)

 

[WannabeOwner]

Maintenance is a bit different as well (in the UK at least).

Just a data point, for high mileage drivers:

I service MS once a year, around 27,000 miles, with no impact on Tesla Warranty. If it was on Finance I might have to do manufacturers intervals. Jag might require regular servicing too?

You should be looking through a corner when the steering is still straight ahead

We had swivelling headlights on the RS4 some years back ... was comical manoeuvring in car parks at night with the headlights swinging left & right

When the single-fog-light-on-turning-side first came out whenever we arrived and turned into someone's drive the first thing they would say was "One of your lights isn't working ..."

 

[Mark_T]

Just a data point, for high mileage drivers:

I service MS once a year, around 27,000 miles, with no impact on Tesla Warranty. If it was on Finance I might have to do manufacturers intervals. Jag might require regular servicing too?

I think it is a certainty on both Tesla and Jag that you'll have to do the scheduled maintenance to protect the residual on a PCP.

It is hard to score this as anything other than a win for the i-Pace though. Service intervals are 2 years/21,000 miles with the first 2 services at £191 each and the third at 6 years/63,000 for £533.

These are UK prices, in the Netherlands for example the i-Pace has 3years/100,00km free servicing. I imagine that the intervals will be shorter in the USA just because they always are

We had swivelling headlights on the RS4 some years back ... was comical manoeuvring in car parks at night with the headlights swinging left & right

When the single-fog-light-on-turning-side first came out whenever we arrived and turned into someone's drive the first thing they would say was "One of your lights isn't working ..."

We had this on a car a few years ago and yes, it wasn't all that useful, but that isn't what makes matrix headlights appealing. It is the ability to maintain full beam illumination on parts of the road ahead while not illuminating the bits that would dazzle another driver.

The current Tesla adaptive headlights are years behind the competition on this point.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Service intervals are 2 years/21,000 miles

Hadn't spotted that. Definitely "appropriate" for an (i.e. any) EV (and I'm surprised that Tesla hasn't changed to that. My view of Tesla Service is its largely an Inspection; important when the company / car was new, but now could be re-thought based on actuality).

Tesla has had the turf to itself ... plenty of scope for them to just do away with a bunch of income-items when the competition hots up.

 

[DJP31]

Hadn't spotted that. Definitely "appropriate" for an (i.e. any) EV (and I'm surprised that Tesla hasn't changed to that. My view of Tesla Service is its largely an Inspection; important when the company / car was new, but now could be re-thought based on actuality).

Tesla has had the turf to itself ... plenty of scope for them to just do away with a bunch of income-items when the competition hots up.

I also think Tesla proactively replace items that are warranty based, which is pretty much everything on the car. The cost of this is wrapped up in the service pricing. As an established manufacturer I guess Jaguar don’t need to do this.

I’m going to the preview event at Coulsdon tomorrow and am interested in seeing it in the flesh.

 

[cizUK]

A fully optioned iPace is £84K on the road
PCP £10K deposit, 6.9% APR, total payable £96K!

That's actually considerably more than I'm paying for my fully optioned X 75D!

I don't see those numbers add up.
Fully optioned Model X 75D, White, White & CF, 22", 6 seat, PUP, EAP, = £97,400 - £10,000 deposit x 104.9% over 4 years = £105,800 + £10,000 = £115,800 total payable.
I-Pace: (too many options) = £84,900 - £4,500 - £10,000 x 106.9% 4 yrs = £91,900 + £10,000 = £101,900 Total
Equivalent Model X 75D, White, White & CF, 22", 5 seat, PUP, = £87,000 - £10,000 deposit x 104.9% over 4 years = £93,200 + £10,000 = £103,200 total payable.
Just looking at one off cost, I-Pace = £80,400, Model X = £97,400. Much more realistic to compare to Model S at £79,200
I'm not a massive I-Pace fan, but I do like to give it credit.
What am I missing from these calculations?

 

[WannabeOwner]

try not to shoot the messenger.

You are safe and thanks for taking the time. I'm genuinely interested in the "why" around choice of EV at this point in time (ignoring any PigHeaded "Because" reasons)

It isn't 'haven't done homework', it is rather the opposite.

Yes, good point, Done-Homework is not the case for my (small) audience. They are aware of Tesla but have never really considered it enough to have done any homework, so my "Pitch" is probably all they actually know. Of those folk I think Jag is a likely First-EV choice because "known" (and quite likely "Already owned one/several/know-the-dealer").

Not so sure about eg.. Beamer owners ... I need to canvass some of those to see what they are thinking about coming-EVs and timing of their likely ownership.

voice commands for example do not appear to include temperature settings...

Voice is rubbish. I have a Queens English clear accent and it rarely understands anything I say. Yes, all functions on the car should be voice activate-able, and I think (if CPU is sufficient) that will come (and that will make redundant all the buttons scattered across the dashboard)

How long were the cars being sold with 'rain sensing wipers' that didn't actually work?

Rain Sensing ... I'm so glad I didn't buy just before the HW2 launch ... I would have been utterly pissed at not having AP or anything else for SUCH a long time. I genuinely thought, at the time, that it would be a "short delay" (maybe things went much more sour with MobileEye than was apparent at the time, or Tesla way too optimistic on delivery).

AP2 still does not do speed-limit-recognition, so no help for Variable Speed Limit on M25 (which is camera-enforced of course ...)

I have not bought PowerWall because I am not prepared to "wait" for the coming-tomorrow features that I need. If (doubtful though ...) another vendor comes along with a battery that fits my requirements I might well jump ship - and I'm definitely a Musk Fanboy ...

There are software bugs in this car that haven't been fixed 12 years later!

Yup, had that in VW. Bought a supposedly "like for like" BlueMotion Golf to replace a version-1 and the marketing people had had-at the display in the interim (more the twit me for not actually looking at the market at that time, I could have had a Tesla 2 years earlier ... but then VW got me to look at the market when they inflicted DieselGate on me, thanks for that VW ), and it was a huge retrograde step and some things broken / poorly implemented / needed more DEV time and/or an intermediate fix. Cruise Control in an Eco car ... changed to TACC but "hair up behind vehicle and jump on brakes at last minute". Definitely not Eco ... and also terrifying for passenger.

VW never installed a firmware upggrade, never offered me one (paid or otherwise). SatNav maps upgrade alone would have been nice. I get that OTA periodically now with Tesla of course.

the PDI task is being left up to the customer with even glaring problems like significant scratches being missed.

you don't tend to find all of them in one manufacturer and concentrated in only 3 vehicles.

I read that on the forums. Never, yet, met anyone who had a single fault at collection, me included. All the "Mine was rubbish" stories make the Internet of course ... same for other marques. Tesla may well be statistically worse, although IME everything on the car that I have had cause to raise has been a no-cost item, even some that I would have expected to pay for. e.g. Windscreen cracked, no apparent stone chip that caused it. Maybe other Marques would have treated that as Warranty repair? Tesla did ("Must be a fault in the glass Sir")

I've had a fault with the headlights (toggling Dip/Beam repeatedly). I had a "dry motor" which was fixed as part of some other service visit (i.e. non urgent).

I have "cold feet" which is definitely a design issue (not fixed despite several attempts) and Static on Radio (supposedly a software fault, solved by TuneIn / DAB etc. but I don't have 100% coverage on my journeys ... so not a practical solution for me)

... these are annoyances, not showstoppers, and are no worse than the annoyances I have in VW <spit> over the years.

a known problem with rattling struts on the MS

Not even read about that one on the Forums. (Not saying it doesn't exist, and yeah "not fixable" would be a pisser ...)

Supercharger Network If you make long one-way journeys ..., but it is only compelling if you actually need it.

I wonder how many 200-mile-range capable cars are never driven out of range?

For any that are, particularly only occasionally, the non-Supercharger network is completely unusable. Planning required, have to buy & carry a Type-2 cable (although i think now standard? wasn't in my car) and CHAdeMO. Both bulky to use. Public charging network is a patchwork of different Vendors, typically a large percentage of their Stalls are bust, IME the APPs (when used in unfamiliar places) often don't get me charging and I have to phone for assistance, and in those instances I have wound up with "not possible" on a not-insignificant percentage of attempts. Other cars charging are "slow", so will block the stall for ages (or just wander off for a couple of hours and leave the car plugged in "for the free parking" or whatever). Good luck finding anywhere with enough stalls to have a near-zero probability of being full; I have never, yet, had to wait to Supercharge - supply exceeds demand by quite-a-bit - and I have once had a stall which slow-charged - I was able to see that on the APP whilst having coffe and I moved the car to a different stall.

So I think anyone buying an EV that can only use public charging and needs it "even once" is making a poor choice (yeah, maybe better in a couple of years time, but definitely not "today"). Local charging (Leaf etc.) probably fine, you would learn what your choices are locally etc. But on long distance much more likely that you are at that location for the first & only time ...

I've seen people claim it is worth thousands of $$ to a Tesla owner

Free Superchargers

Yeah, "free" Supercharging is emotive only. Petrol would cost me £5,000 p.a., the Electricity equivalent is £700 p.a. Even a 10% saving on that is peanuts compared to the money I have already saved ...

... but the saving on Time (Supercharging vs. any-other-public-charging) is definitely Night and Day to me. The best Rapid charging at CHAdeMO is only 50% as fast as Supercharging, and most places only have one stall, so high risk of Bust / Blocked. Plus teh APP etc. issues mentioned earlier.

No other car in this price bracket lacks these items and many of them can be found in cars a quarter of the price.

it is the missing technology pieces that I find the most irritating.

There are some things I would like (infrared augmented reality of some sort, particularly at night on country roads and some twit on a Bike with no lights wearing all-black clothing ...)

HUD maybe ... Not tried one, and I read that sunlight can be a nuisance (but maybe if that is only X% of the time,the other 100-x% is Brill?)

But on the "Other cars have more tech / tech that I particularly want" point:

I wonder:

Infotainment has had nothing like enough "love" via OTA ... yet

Its just software. OTA exists. Screen is huge ...

... I have attributed the delay in improvements to a "don't care" attitude, and resources deployed elsewhere (but it wouldn't take a lot, and they are most likely different skillset and not interchangeable with, say, AP-DEV)

... for example, an "any function" voice-command-recognition could come OTA. As said above, no dashboard buttons to become redundant, and instantly cockpit would be desirable to the must-have-buttons folk (who would be comfortable with "voice-buttons" instead)

... maybe the business-decision is to hold this back as a late-deployed-killer-feature? delay Infotainment enhancements until competition is snapping at heels. Updating the whole fleet to something more slick, at the point that punters are on the point of making a buying decision, could be a killer-stroke ...

... or just my own personal pipe-dream!

... and won't get you HUD etc. I'm afraid.

AP2 - competitors are starting to catch up

Not sure I attach weight to that ... Tesla OTA improvements coming all the time, as the competitors catch up Tesla will move on too ...

Tesla have, in-house, done the equivalent DEV of MobileEye in only a couple of years. $MobileEye sold for billions ... Tesla's DEV tragectory on AP looks good to me

OTA software updates - amazing feature, all cars should have it

I'm in two minds. The number of bugs in OTA (fixed a few weeks / months later) is annoying. "Can OTA therefore Will OTA" is not a good formula.

Also, car changing willy-nilly without driver (particularly secondary-driver) being aware brings its own problems. Particularly if the first time you know there is a change is approaching a sharp bend!

But, yeah, "ability to improve the car" is fantastic.

Sound quality is excellent too

Agreed. I didn't buy premium sound. If I have Audiophiles in the car I play Adelle on Spotify, and passengers are super impressed. I do not play Classic FM (on FM) at that time

The huge 17" touchscreen

Might seem like just a Wow Gimmick to onlookers? In actual use driving, splitting the screen in half, viewing THIS and THAT and toggling one half between e.g. Trip Energy and Audio (when i want to adjust something), whilst all the time having MAP / SatNav open ... and then when I get close to destination, and its a complex road/layout situation, then changing Map to full-screen AND zoom right in WITH Satellite images, is hugely better than regular satnav ...

So, Yeah, 17" is definitely a killer-feature

I very rarely use Internet on it ... but I always Demo that function

Keyless exit - most other cars have keyless entry, but often don't self lock on walk away like the Tesla system ca

Full driver setting profiles

Yup. For "just me" I have my driving position, an Exit position, and a Chill position - e.g. sat in car at supercharger. Settings for Spouse too ... and Guest so they can play too.

Memory for passenger seat woudl be nice though ...

... and it has typical Tesla-bugs, not fixed in many many OTA iterations:

Wifee gets to car first, gets into passenger seat, I approach drivers door ... drivers seat changes to Wifee's settings as she was first-to-car.

Select "me" from menu.

Get to Supercharger, get out, plug in, get back in drivers seat ... its changed to Wifee's settings again.

Autopark

and Summon

I don't have a ready-list of improvements DURING my ownership, but Autopark and Summon were not on the car when new. Also since then the Radar has improved to detect car-two-in-front braking heavily, convenience features like Graphic Equaliser changing from 3-slider to 5-slider (and with that came a bug that meant that the settings were forgotten every time you stopped; that took a month or more for a fix ... its working now though ...), a CONFIG was added so that Seat-position could be tied to Key Fob (with the new bugs listed above ...) and that's not to mention all the AP improvements and so on.

Rain Sensing Wipers too, if you have a HW2 car

 

[Peteski]

I don't see those numbers add up.
Fully optioned Model X 75D, White, White & CF, 22", 6 seat, PUP, EAP, = £97,400 - £10,000 deposit x 104.9% over 4 years = £105,800 + £10,000 = £115,800 total payable.
I-Pace: (too many options) = £84,900 - £4,500 - £10,000 x 106.9% 4 yrs = £91,900 + £10,000 = £101,900 Total
Equivalent Model X 75D, White, White & CF, 22", 5 seat, PUP, = £87,000 - £10,000 deposit x 104.9% over 4 years = £93,200 + £10,000 = £103,200 total payable.
Just looking at one off cost, I-Pace = £80,400, Model X = £97,400. Much more realistic to compare to Model S at £79,200
I'm not a massive I-Pace fan, but I do like to give it credit.
What am I missing from these calculations?

I'm going to do this one more time, lol
My actual MX order figures (ordered October 2017 for Feb 2018 delivery):-

X75D, 7 seater, PUP, EAP, Premium white interior + Carbon trim, Premium white paint, 20" wheels (iPace FE also comes with 20"). Yes, 6 seater is more expensive, but I wanted the 7 seater! iPace only has 5 seats, so should we really compare against 5 seat MX? And the iPace is a whole class size smaller, but anyway regardless here is what I'm actually paying:-

Cash price = £88,080
Deposit = £11,000, Monthly payment = £782
Finance charges (4 year, 40K PCP) = £3,655 (1.5% APR)
Total payable = £91,735 (although I will be handing it back with a 50% guaranteed residual less 7 p/mile excess)
*For a 5-seater (vs 5 seat iPace) that would have reduced to a total of £88,935

I've no idea how you got to £116K payable?! But my figures are most definitely real (I know the finance rate has gone up since, but that's what I paid). Yes I could have added £5700 for some pointless bling wheels and the same again for a 6-seater, but neither make any sense nor are comparable with an iPace FE.

So comparing the above figures with an iPace FE (on 20" wheels):-

Cash price = £82,374
Deposit = £11,000, Monthly payment = £1,015
Finance charges (4 year, 40K PCP) = £15,075
Total payable = £97,449 (with only a 45.7% guaranteed residual, no idea on excess mileage but I'll bet it's a lot more than 7 p/mile)

Now it doesn't mention anything about the £4500 grant, so if we assume we can take that away, it's still £92.949 in total.

Now of course I could spec a lesser iPace to make it cheaper than my MX, but when I tried that I still had trouble getting the total cash price under £80K with the options I wanted. For me, the iPace would have definitely been more expensive than my MX on a PCP deal. For a cash buyer the iPace would be cheaper, but then I didn't want to take my chances on residuals and so the Tesla PCP at 1.5% APR and 50% guaranteed residual was a no-brainer at the time. It's maybe not so good now it's up at 4.9% APR, but do the maths properly!

 

[thegruf]

I have a slightly different take on all this.

The things that Tesla are weak on - are easily added existing technology stuff. Just add trinkets. They are selling all the cars they can make so, despite the carping at the fringes, no particular hurry and these can come in time.

The things that everyone else is weak on - is cutting edge BEV technology with major supply chain implications that is extremely hard to do.

The problem for everyone is profitability. Tesla have approached this from the outset with profitability in mind, their current losses are only due to the colossal investments they are making, the vehicle and battery manufacture itself is healthily profitable in large part due to the holistic approach they have taken. No other manufacturer has been able to replicate this to date, and in particular their persistence in adapting existing technology will never allow them to be as profitable.

This is intiially countered by huge existing manufacturers ability to cross-subsidize BEV programs from ICE sales but that (ahem) ice will get thinner and thinner over time. This is the point at which you will see a major shakeout of the automotive industry, and will be exacerbated by a gradual but incessant move towards a reduction in individual car ownership as autopilot functionality enables more "summon a car/driverless taxi" type services.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Good post @thegruf

exacerbated by a gradual but incessant move towards a reduction in individual car ownership

Is that just "fewer [taxi] cars doing higher mileage being replaced more often" vs. "Individual ownership, longer life"?

Clearly there is a different dynamic between them, but at some point in time the manufacturing rate looks the same to me.

Hmmm ... All on AP, no accidents , no write-offs, no insurance replacements ... that must have an impact, but maybe the number of total-writes-offs is a minute percentage?

 

[arg]

Is that just "fewer [taxi] cars doing higher mileage being replaced more often" vs. "Individual ownership, longer life"?

Clearly there is a different dynamic between them, but at some point in time the manufacturing rate looks the same to me.

We have to hope that the outcome is that cars do a much higher total mileage before being scrapped, not just that they do the higher mileage per year and get scrapped sooner.

Currently, there are vast numbers of perfectly serviceable cars being scrapped because they require some relatively minor repair that costs "more than the car is worth". Sometimes the argument is offered to excuse the environmental cost of this waste that newer cars are more efficient/less polluting and so scrapping the old ones is a good thing - and that argument is also weakened if we can get cars doing a high mileage while they are still young.

An on-demand world would also allow better matching of car sizes to need, rather than driving around solo in a car bought for your peak requirements.

Finally, there's the impact of ride-sharing to factor in, as a kind of half-way-house between taxi and public transport. All those big cars in the fleet for the family outings at the weekend can be carrying multiple commuters on week days.

Still, old habits die hard and it's not clear how quickly or to what extent this brave new world will be embraced by people who are used to having a shiny status symbol on the driveway.

 

[Mark_T]

Not even read about that one on the Forums. (Not saying it doesn't exist, and yeah "not fixable" would be a pisser ...)

Thanks for the long reply all good points.

Just to respond on this one, here is the MS thread:

Rattle noise coming from front air suspension

 

[McRat]

I think many folk are overthinking this and misunderstanding the iPace.
Jaguar has a history of making great handling cars, and luxury cars.
The Jaguar is the first small luxury SUV with AWD and big power that isn't a gas guzzler.

You can't buy that today. If iPace keeps on schedule it will be in a party of one.

And hate it all you like, Jaguar is a fashion brand. It gets brownie points when you are into impressing the peasants. More so than BMW, Audi, or Benz. Not an Aston Martin, but up there. No, it was not a coincidence the model S looks like an Aston Martin.

 

[Peteski]

Jaguar in the UK is an old fart's brand with a dodgy service network. In recent years they have tried to appeal to a (slightly) younger audience, but really it's the classic over 50s choice of cruiser. I think they may have a more upmarket image over on the US side of the pond.

I saw a disguised iPace hack driving through Towcester at lunch time. It's actually quite big by UK standards, certainly a mid-sized SUV like a Q5 rather than a compact. Again in the US it would look relatively small. I thought it looked okay, but not amazing. The back end looks a bit odd from some angles. I wouldn't buy one as I'm not really a Jaguar fan, but I hope it outsells their ICE SUVs to prove a point.

 

[McRat]

I'm going to do this one more time, lol
My actual MX order figures (ordered October 2017 for Feb 2018 delivery):-

X75D, 7 seater, PUP, EAP, Premium white interior + Carbon trim, Premium white paint, 20" wheels (iPace FE also comes with 20"). Yes, 6 seater is more expensive, but I wanted the 7 seater! iPace only has 5 seats, so should we really compare against 5 seat MX? And the iPace is a whole class size smaller, but anyway regardless here is what I'm actually paying:-

Cash price = £88,080
Deposit = £11,000, Monthly payment = £782
Finance charges (4 year, 40K PCP) = £3,655 (1.5% APR)
Total payable = £91,735 (although I will be handing it back with a 50% guaranteed residual less 7 p/mile excess)
*For a 5-seater (vs 5 seat iPace) that would have reduced to a total of £88,935

I've no idea how you got to £116K payable?! But my figures are most definitely real (I know the finance rate has gone up since, but that's what I paid). Yes I could have added £5700 for some pointless bling wheels and the same again for a 6-seater, but neither make any sense nor are comparable with an iPace FE.

So comparing the above figures with an iPace FE (on 20" wheels):-

Cash price = £82,374
Deposit = £11,000, Monthly payment = £1,015
Finance charges (4 year, 40K PCP) = £15,075
Total payable = £97,449 (with only a 45.7% guaranteed residual, no idea on excess mileage but I'll bet it's a lot more than 7 p/mile)

Now it doesn't mention anything about the £4500 grant, so if we assume we can take that away, it's still £92.949 in total.

Now of course I could spec a lesser iPace to make it cheaper than my MX, but when I tried that I still had trouble getting the total cash price under £80K with the options I wanted. For me, the iPace would have definitely been more expensive than my MX on a PCP deal. For a cash buyer the iPace would be cheaper, but then I didn't want to take my chances on residuals and so the Tesla PCP at 1.5% APR and 50% guaranteed residual was a no-brainer at the time. It's maybe not so good now it's up at 4.9% APR, but do the maths properly!

For a 5 seat MX75D in red, standard wheels, light color interior, PUP, ACC+Autosteer in the USA, the iPace FE is $10k cheaper, or over 11% cheaper before incentives but with better performance. It's like getting the EV incentives twice on Jag.

 

[Peteski]

For a 5 seat MX75D in red, standard wheels, light color interior, PUP, ACC+Autosteer in the USA, the iPace FE is $10k cheaper, or over 11% cheaper before incentives but with better performance. It's like getting the EV incentives twice on Jag.

This is the "UK and Ireland" sub forum, so it's largely irrelevant how much stuff costs in the US. The Jag is slightly cheaper over here too, but the finance is very expensive, making it more expensive overall unless you stick to a very basic spec.

As for performance, there isn't much in it, both are sub 5 sec 0-60 and the iPace actually has a lower max speed (not that it matters). The MX is a fair bit bigger which may or may not be to your taste. They are hardly comparable in that sense, it's like comparing an Audi Q5 vs Q7. Both are valid options at different size (and price) points.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Jaguar in the UK is an old fart's brand with a dodgy service network

I'm an old fart, and have a car with dodgy service ...and I've never owned a Jag