thegruf
Active Member
What I saw yesterday is a tesla killer Elon has to pull something out of the bag ...
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Jaguar I pace preview yesterday
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WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
A bit like Mercedes Battery Storage which was also announced to be a Tesla Killer ... except that Mercedes killed that off a few days ago ...
The Doing seems to be harder than the Talking ... who would have thunk it eh?!!
I still don't understand why Jag thought a marketing campaign targeting Tesla was the best starting point.
Converting existing Jag (and similar) users is trivial, and doesn't bring the same "You're wrong on so many points" criticism. Plenty of people I know that drive Jag, or Range Rover type, are interested in the iPace, and probably would not have bought a Tesla (I guess uncomfortable with unknown brand / perceived risk / haven't done homework / "better the devil you know")
The Doing seems to be harder than the Talking ... who would have thunk it eh?!!
I still don't understand why Jag thought a marketing campaign targeting Tesla was the best starting point.
Converting existing Jag (and similar) users is trivial, and doesn't bring the same "You're wrong on so many points" criticism. Plenty of people I know that drive Jag, or Range Rover type, are interested in the iPace, and probably would not have bought a Tesla (I guess uncomfortable with unknown brand / perceived risk / haven't done homework / "better the devil you know")
i want to see if jag heat pump has advantages over tesla resistive heating. competition is cool.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Probably an ignorant question, but why is that an issue?
i.e. Jag have a customer, but it is important to Jag that Customers buys Model-A rather than Model-B. Isn't just being a "Jag Customer" enough?
(Yeah, Dealer might get more commission on A rather than B and thus push-sell "A", but either way Jag sells a car)
I'll have a stab at this one, just try not to shoot the messenger...
It isn't 'haven't done homework', it is rather the opposite.
When you do your homework before purchasing a Tesla, as I have done, what you find is a huge degree of customer support for the brand, but also a rather untypical tolerance for faults, failings, missing and extremely delayed features.
This is unnerving to a new buyer.
Right now, there is a known problem with rattling struts on the MS which can affect brand new cars within days or weeks of sale. This has been going on for a couple of years, has no known fix and those with the problem are just being asked to wait for a solution...
Doubtless this doesn't affect everyone, but to know you have a fault that you can't fix and continue to sell new cars with the problem doesn't engender confidence.
Features like matrix headlights, blind-spot monitoring, 360 camera view, HUD simply aren't there.
No other car in this price bracket lacks these items and many of them can be found in cars a quarter of the price.
Even premium features that it does have are more limited than even low cost Ford models, voice commands for example do not appear to include temperature settings...
How long were the cars being sold with 'rain sensing wipers' that didn't actually work? Even now the reports on their accuracy seem patchy.
I have no doubt that the driving experience is compelling, but getting a new customer to look past the many and frequent reports of QC issues resulting in multiple visits and re-work is not an easy thing. Especially when it seems that the PDI task is being left up to the customer with even glaring problems like significant scratches being missed.
These are not cheap cars, an S75 with leather, metallic paint and the 'Premium Upgrades' costs more than a fully loaded First Edition i-Pace, but the feel you get from the cabin and the seats falls a long way short of the quality you experience in any similarly priced car from traditional manufacturers.
Still, despite all that, if you need the space and seating of the MX then there is no competition, those comparing the i-Pace to the MX have completely misunderstood the target market.
Personally I see the i-Pace going against the MY which is a bright move from Jaguars perspective as Tesla are not going to be in that space any time soon so even if the MY is going to be cheaper it doesn't matter as it isn't there yet.
So the trump card in the Tesla camp is of course the Supercharger Network.
If you make long one-way journeys it is a great asset and unlikely to be equalled for another couple of years at least, but it is only compelling if you actually need it.
I've seen people claim it is worth thousands of $$ to a Tesla owner, and if I was driving in Texas or California I'd probably agree. If I was regularly driving across Europe I'd also tend to agree, but I don't. In the last year there has only been one weekend where having the Superchargers available to me would have been an advantage and in that case there were also around 12 50kW CCS chargers along the route in places that would have made sense to top up enough to complete the journey.
The Superchargers are great, just not useful to the same degree to everyone.
Still with all that said I have not finally decided not to buy a Tesla, but the obstacles to that decision are real and significant, it is certainly not an easy choice...
I hear this a lot, but I do not think it is accurate. Yes, you are correct that there are issues that take ages to fix. Stupid things like automatic wipers that need "a software update" to work. Software updates that do more harm than good, etc, etc.
I drive a 2006 Audi A6 (for 2 more weeks, then I'll get my MS). There are software bugs in this car that haven't been fixed 12 years later! For example, my DRL lights don't always turn on when I unlock the car. Apparently this is a timing issue, it is known by Audi, but no fix available. Latest firmware update is years ago.
When this car came out in 2004 the car only came with German of English language. Customers were told to wait for a software update to add other languages. This took some time. During sales customers were informed the Dutch language would be available at time of delivery.
For my car that was an issue that the rear window washer hose could brake, leaking liquid onto the on-board computer. A costly $3500 repair. The Technical Service Bulletin was only valid for 15 months (read: cars within warranty). After that, if your car hasn't been fixed, your screwed if this happens to you. How is that for service? Audi is too lazy to fix a $2 hose, but is happy to replace your $3500 computer. In comparison: Tesla fixed the yellow banding issue for free!
And other brands have other issues as well. Take a look at VW that have a software fix for dieselgate that destroys your EGR valve, and VW says: "dont look at us! We didn't brake it". $1000 repair. And that doesn't actually fix it, your EGR valve will go bust again. Its actually just a temporary solution.
So, just to clarify: I agree completely that these issues with Tesla shouldn't take years to fix, but this is not specific to Tesla. Other brands have issues that take ages to fix as well or even worse: They are aware of issues, don't fix them, but let you pick up the tab.
Tesla isn't worse than other brands. I feel Tesla is actually much better.
I'm sure you are right, you can find examples of most of these issues in other manufacturers, but you don't tend to find all of them in one manufacturer and concentrated in only 3 vehicles.
Oddly perhaps, given how strong Tesla is on the technology side of this business, it is the missing technology pieces that I find the most irritating.
When I look for a new car I usually short-list the technology pieces that I consider vital in the next purchase. This time those included matrix headlights, blind-spot monitoring, 360 camera view and HUD all of which are oddly absent from current Tesla vehicles despite being on other cars for several years now.
Draw a line across the car at the level of the battery... I don't think that anyone does the battery/motor/suspension/wheels better that Tesla (except perhaps that rattling strut issue) I'm just having a hard time forgiving the missing features and quality above the battery line
You are right in this statement and I agree Tesla should have these missing "standard" high end features available as options (they are rarely standard fitment on other cars, more typically expensive options).
But if you turn it the other way around, why don't other high end cars have all the unique features that Teslas do have? There are an awful lot of great features on my X that no other car has. Yes, I do wish my Tesla had a full 360 surround camera view and blind-spot monitoring, but that's very much a glass half-empty view. The features it does have far outweigh those that are missing. Otherwise I would have bought something else.
That's a fair point, the flexible seating options and sheer size are obvious, but what would you put on the plus side of the scales as the unique features that are missing on other cars?
It would make a helpful list as there may well be things you value that are not obvious from a non-owner perspective.
Okay here goes in no particular order:-
Full EV drivetrain - It's still a pretty non-existent feature on other large luxury cars/SUVs today. Obvious, but it's still the main reason I bought a Tesla!
AP2 - competitors are starting to catch up, but I haven't personally used anything better than the latest iteration of AP2. Even TACC is better than most other adaptive cruise controls.
OTA software updates - amazing feature, all cars should have it.
Phone App - being able to remotely activate climate from your phone is priceless in hot or cold weather.
Premium Spotify - amazing feature that renders all forms of stored music totally redundant. I've listened to so much more diverse music since using this over my own personal iPhone library. Sound quality is excellent too, which is often still quite disappointing in many high end cars. Okay I would have ideally preferred Apple music streaming to Spotify, but who else is even doing online music streaming in cars?
Tune-in - makes DAB and FM look like last century tech too.
The huge 17" touchscreen - makes everything else look like a Nintendo 3DS. Again some manufacturers are starting to put bigger screens in, but most still seem half-assed. It's all pretty intuitive to use as well - unlike the latest Volvo XC90 screen, which is not!
Keyless exit - most other cars have keyless entry, but often don't self lock on walk away like the Tesla system can. Also nice that you can switch off keyless entry when parked at night rather than having to mess about with tin boxes etc.
Panoramic windscreen - X only feature of course, but wow what a feature! Every other car now feels like I'm looking at the world from a letterbox!
Fully automatic doors - X only again, but very rare feature on other cars. Even flush door handles are a rarity elsewhere. No more nail scratches around conventional door handles. I don't have any experience of the S handles though - maybe those are more trouble than they're worth? It's also cool that you can close up the whole car from the key fob with a triple click. No more having to walk around the car to shut the doors that the kids and wife left hanging open.
Autopark - I know it's not totally unique to Tesla, but this is the only system I've tried that actually works. It's both intuitive and quick to activate and parks the car quickly and accurately without any fuss. I was surprised how good it actually is and now use it all the time for parallel parking. In contrast the Nissan auto parking is totally ineffective unless you have a spare 10 mins to park up. It's both confusing to activate and dog slow.
Full driver setting profiles - amazingly most other cars still only have basic seat/mirror memory buttons and often they are an option rather than a standard feature.
FWDs - another unique X feature and I've grown to really like them in most situations. If you don't have small kids they are probably not worth the potential hassle, but for us with our 5 and 8 year olds they make life easier. I notice it now whenever we have to use a conventional car - the doors just get in your way.
Free Superchargers - obvious benefits
There's probably a load of other minor stuff I haven't mentioned, but really the only feature I truly miss from other cars is a 360 degree surround camera view. I'm now having to rely on the reverse camera, proximity sensors and door mirrors, which is not quite as easy. Autopark helps a lot, but would still much prefer to see what's going on directly from above on a single screen. HUD - don't care, never had a car with it and don't see much point in a Tesla. Blind spot warning - miss it a little, but never relied on it anyway. AP2 is now pretty good with auto-lane changing on motorways. But a little disappointing that our local dual carriageway doesn't allow auto lane-change yet, while other comparable roads do. I guess Tesla is still rolling that feature out across the road network.
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I forgot to add the medical grade filtration system, which I think is a great feature too. No other car I've driven has kept all the farming smells and pollen out of the car so effectively. It's not that other high end cars don't have HEPA and carbon filters, but none seem to do it on the scale Tesla have.
@Peteski an excellent list indeed. One thing I would add is the “X” factor that the car brings with it. The cabin being designed around the 17” inch screen, the unique instrument cluster and minimalistic nature is just so different to anything else on the market - EV or otherwise for that matter.
I find it refreshing against the myriad of knobs and buttons and headache inducing layout of other manufacturers cockpits.
I wanted something different and just loved the look of the S (less so the X personally), never mind the boxes it ticked for performance, practicality and tech. I’ll be honest and say the green credentials are a bonus and not something I was looking for particularly.
No car can be perfect, and Tesla certainly isn’t, but taken as a whole I just don’t think there is any car out there to match it. It has a “je n’e said quoi” about it.
I find it refreshing against the myriad of knobs and buttons and headache inducing layout of other manufacturers cockpits.
I wanted something different and just loved the look of the S (less so the X personally), never mind the boxes it ticked for performance, practicality and tech. I’ll be honest and say the green credentials are a bonus and not something I was looking for particularly.
No car can be perfect, and Tesla certainly isn’t, but taken as a whole I just don’t think there is any car out there to match it. It has a “je n’e said quoi” about it.
No worries, it was fun thinking about it!
Actually one thing that I find hard to convey on any list is how relaxing the X is to simply drive. You literally just walk up to it, the door opens, you get in, dab the brake, the door shuts by itself, you flick the stalk into D and drive off in silence. When you stop at the lights, you just dab the brakes again (no creeping or rolling backwards) then go again with the throttle. The parking brake comes off so smoothly you don't even notice it's there (no slight tugging like you often get in other cars before the brake releases). Or simply flick on TACC and just do the steering. It brakes so smoothly down to a standstill in traffic, it's hard to do it any better yourself. The regen braking is also very nicely calibrated so you hardly ever have to use the brakes, just progressively lift off the throttle and marvel at how smoothly it wipes off the speed coming into roundabouts. Obviously other EVs have this feature too, but you can tell how much experience Tesla have with the settings. It's seriously impressive now.
The above is most definitely a new and unique experience for me in the 30+ years I've been driving. The iPace will no doubt have many of these advantages too, but I do wonder if Jaguar will need some time to get up to the level Tesla have now reached with the drivetrain refinement. Things like adding spurious fake engine noise suggests that they might not fully understand EVs just yet!
Spot on, couldn't have said it better myself. No list can fully define how "different" and "refreshing" the Tesla driving experience can be. They definitely have a unique ambience and you could not be mistaken for being in any other car. I'm not sure the iPace is going to be quite like that, but we shall see!
Great list Peteski! I would like to add a few other things. I BTW have had a new Panamera for 2 months with Matrix headlights and a few other items that has been referred to as "standard in other cars". To me it is amazing how much more I like the Model S in every way than the new Panamera.
- The way you start the Tesla is just so convenient. Just push the brake pedal and off you go. No de-tour with stop/start button.
- The electronics come on INSTANT. As soon as you're in the drivers seat your streaming music from your phone, the navigation is ready etc. In most other cars it takes time to boot up and that is something Tesla have solved in a much better way.
- The app is responding instantly and does not lag with servers. This makes it very easy to use compared with other system I've tested (mainly VW group, Audi, Porsche). And then I'm speaking of their latest iterations.
- HomeLink being standard and GPS-activated. Each time I come home my gargage port open automatic based on GPS. The level of configuration is limit less and better than in any car I ever tested.
- GPS based Air suspension. If you higher the car at a certain spot the car will remember that GPS-position and automatically higher the car at the same spot next time you come there (if you want)
- Ease of charging. Just push the button on the charger and the charge port auto open, plug-in the the car starts to charge without pushing any additional start buttons on the charger, or in the car. Same procedure while pulling out the charger and the charge port automatically closes. Adding to that the free supercharging is fantastic thing and so simple that a kid can do it.
And a few things to further amplify
- HEPA-filter. It is amazing and compared with the new Panamera I had for a while the inside cabin air in the Tesla is much much better. Specifically if you drive in city centers with lot's of traffic or driving through areas where it smells bad. Also the pollen filtration is amazing if you or your passengers have any sort of allergy.
- 17" screen. Because it is so big the distance between buttons and the real estate makes the buttons easy to hit (not miss) compared with other touch systems with smaller screens. The layout is just so intuitive and easy to use while you get accustomed to it. Compared with for instance the button overload in the Panamera it is just soooo much better. Actually the Panamera system is the art of making things complicated and then I include both the button overload and the rather messy UI in the 12.1" screen.
- OTA updates. The whole approach to this is probably unique for Tesla. Even though Jag e.g. will offer OTA updates I'm not sure it will be remotely close to the Tesla way of doing it where literally everything can be done OTA. The service department can remote diagnose the car etc and connect to your car and see everything.
Not saying that other car manufacturers can't replicate much of what Tesla have done. But the thing with Tesla is that you don't realize how smart the car/software is before you own it for a while. That's when you really understand. At least that has been the case for me and I'm coming from ownership of high end German luxury cars and have driven more or less most of the latest versions of the car on offer from BMW, Porsche, Mercedes etc.
Saying all this I'm still European by heart so I'm looking into what's coming up from the EU-manufacturers. The Porsche Mission-E is most of interest. However, I'm not at all certain that it will be appealing enough. Time will tell
- The way you start the Tesla is just so convenient. Just push the brake pedal and off you go. No de-tour with stop/start button.
- The electronics come on INSTANT. As soon as you're in the drivers seat your streaming music from your phone, the navigation is ready etc. In most other cars it takes time to boot up and that is something Tesla have solved in a much better way.
- The app is responding instantly and does not lag with servers. This makes it very easy to use compared with other system I've tested (mainly VW group, Audi, Porsche). And then I'm speaking of their latest iterations.
- HomeLink being standard and GPS-activated. Each time I come home my gargage port open automatic based on GPS. The level of configuration is limit less and better than in any car I ever tested.
- GPS based Air suspension. If you higher the car at a certain spot the car will remember that GPS-position and automatically higher the car at the same spot next time you come there (if you want)
- Ease of charging. Just push the button on the charger and the charge port auto open, plug-in the the car starts to charge without pushing any additional start buttons on the charger, or in the car. Same procedure while pulling out the charger and the charge port automatically closes. Adding to that the free supercharging is fantastic thing and so simple that a kid can do it.
And a few things to further amplify
- HEPA-filter. It is amazing and compared with the new Panamera I had for a while the inside cabin air in the Tesla is much much better. Specifically if you drive in city centers with lot's of traffic or driving through areas where it smells bad. Also the pollen filtration is amazing if you or your passengers have any sort of allergy.
- 17" screen. Because it is so big the distance between buttons and the real estate makes the buttons easy to hit (not miss) compared with other touch systems with smaller screens. The layout is just so intuitive and easy to use while you get accustomed to it. Compared with for instance the button overload in the Panamera it is just soooo much better. Actually the Panamera system is the art of making things complicated and then I include both the button overload and the rather messy UI in the 12.1" screen.
- OTA updates. The whole approach to this is probably unique for Tesla. Even though Jag e.g. will offer OTA updates I'm not sure it will be remotely close to the Tesla way of doing it where literally everything can be done OTA. The service department can remote diagnose the car etc and connect to your car and see everything.
Not saying that other car manufacturers can't replicate much of what Tesla have done. But the thing with Tesla is that you don't realize how smart the car/software is before you own it for a while. That's when you really understand. At least that has been the case for me and I'm coming from ownership of high end German luxury cars and have driven more or less most of the latest versions of the car on offer from BMW, Porsche, Mercedes etc.
Saying all this I'm still European by heart so I'm looking into what's coming up from the EU-manufacturers. The Porsche Mission-E is most of interest. However, I'm not at all certain that it will be appealing enough. Time will tell
So true about not realising just how smart the Tesla system is until you actually own one! Everything from battery management, drivetrain mapping to touchscreen is very clever and forward thinking. There's always room for improvement and that's exactly what you get with regular OTA software updates. I've only owned my new X since February (coming up to 3000 miles), but I'm still amazed how well it drives and how much easier it is to live with than typical German rivals. It's worth mentioning that my car has not suffered with any of the faults commonly reported on these forums, so I don't yet have any downsides to offset all the many positives. I also have a long history of German cars (Porsche and BMW mainly) and although they drive well, they suddenly seem a little primitive and backward thinking. Tesla have really changed the goalposts for me in terms of convenient everyday motoring. The other day I borrowed a current BMW 3 series and it was like stepping back 20 years in time. Really was an eye-opener.
My wife and kids are totally blown away by the Tesla too. They just can't believe how smoothly and effortlessly they are wafted around and the whole X cabin is like travelling in BA First. They really do love it! I can see why people end up piling on more miles after buying a Tesla and I'm very much looking forward to summer trips this year.
Great remarks and a pleasure to read from the other Tesla owners. I'm in the same camp.
Now back to the I pace,
I understand (youtube vids) that they are selling this on the premise that jaguar will be able to send out OTA updates and so forth, but I also understand that if the manufacture sends out OTA updates that this would be a lost sale from a dealership that could attempt to up sale any service. The dealerships may have a legal stand and bring a lawsuit against the manufacture. Am I wrong here?
I'm excited to see another nice electric as the I pace . Coming from the Loud ole Camaro days from years past, i feel we are on an interesting ride of what is in the future of electric automobiles.
Now back to the I pace,
I understand (youtube vids) that they are selling this on the premise that jaguar will be able to send out OTA updates and so forth, but I also understand that if the manufacture sends out OTA updates that this would be a lost sale from a dealership that could attempt to up sale any service. The dealerships may have a legal stand and bring a lawsuit against the manufacture. Am I wrong here?
I'm excited to see another nice electric as the I pace . Coming from the Loud ole Camaro days from years past, i feel we are on an interesting ride of what is in the future of electric automobiles.
Because the I-Pace is much better than the F-Pace. A potential F-Pace customer would see that I-Pace and think WOW, it's so much better, then see the delivery time and maybe go on to buy a Tesla. They only have a very limited amount planned for production, so the wait list is going to be long. Much better for them to target Tesla customers, as they will steal from a competitor while preserving their current sales. Does this make sense?
Basically, they are sold out for the next couple of years, and they need more F-Pace sales
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