What about the few folks who ordered before AP2 was announced, but got the cars with the new hardware? They didnt have anything to read when they confirmed their orders and thought they were getting AP1 cars with full AP1 capability.
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Lawfirm seeking for class action participants
- Thread starter Matias
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- Tesla Inc.
What about the few folks who ordered before AP2 was announced, but got the cars with the new hardware? They didnt have anything to read when they confirmed their orders and thought they were getting AP1 cars with full AP1 capability.
jeffro01
Active Member
Fair enough.
Sarcasm never really works online and I REALLY suck at seeing it... LOL Thanks!
Jeff
jeffro01
Active Member
What about them? They also didn't order their car with either the FSD or EAP... So how exactly would this lawsuit apply to them?
Jeff
True, but they didnt get AP1 capabilities either, so they probably have the strongest argument to be angry at how this has played out.
jeffro01
Active Member
Ah... Yeah.. Good point indeed... The in between cars/owners are the ones with the biggest overall gripe, then again, I'd argue they sort of got "lucky" in the long view...
Jeff
yes I am in that end of 2016 group and in one sense feel "lucky" but if I had leased my car I would join this lawsuit. As is im pissed that Tesla cant make auto wipers, or read incoming text, or match interior panels with no gap, or make bump free leather seats, or have ANY sort of reasonable voice recognition.....
jeffro01
Active Member
Huh? So you'd join a frivolous lawsuit because you're upset about things that have nothing to do with said lawsuit? Yeah... That's logical...
Jeff
lunitiks
Cool James & Black Teacher
Sooo... If you had leased your car you would join the lawsuit? But since you chose to purchase it, so that you actually own the car, you won't?
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Citation required. I remember someone once quoted a reference that pointed explicitly to two front facing cameras in EAP (a reference since removed from the site), but it never said explicitly which two of the cameras it was.
If you have a link or quote to which section it says so, please give it, as it's definitely relevant to the discussion.
lunitiks
Cool James & Black Teacher
@stopcrazypp I've tried many times to get sources/citations out of him, but so success.
Reading his post again (the one you just quoted), I'm starting to wonder if he's just making stuff up. "Elon also said what cameras will be used. The two rear facing cameras and the two redundant forward looking camera. That is the main and narrow cameras."
What does this even mean? "The two redundant" forward cameras? [ redundant Superfluous; exceeding what is necessary ] How does he come to the conclusion that "that is the main and narrow cameras"? I can't see Tesla ever stating which forward cameras are - or are supposed to be - in use in EAP. Best guess, backed up by tests and some common sense, tells me that the Main (passenger side) camera, and maybe the FishEye camera, is being used actively at this point. (By "used"/"active" I mean that the video feeds are being processed by the PX2/algos and allows for output commands to the power steering, brake system and drive inverter.)
Reading his post again (the one you just quoted), I'm starting to wonder if he's just making stuff up. "Elon also said what cameras will be used. The two rear facing cameras and the two redundant forward looking camera. That is the main and narrow cameras."
What does this even mean? "The two redundant" forward cameras? [ redundant Superfluous; exceeding what is necessary ] How does he come to the conclusion that "that is the main and narrow cameras"? I can't see Tesla ever stating which forward cameras are - or are supposed to be - in use in EAP. Best guess, backed up by tests and some common sense, tells me that the Main (passenger side) camera, and maybe the FishEye camera, is being used actively at this point. (By "used"/"active" I mean that the video feeds are being processed by the PX2/algos and allows for output commands to the power steering, brake system and drive inverter.)
I think I may know what the OP is trying to say. If you're leasing and paying $83/month for EAP and it's still not working, I suppose I wouldn't be happy. Then again, I don't lease and if I did lease it, I certainly wouldn't have opted for EAP until it starts working (hopefully in the next 48 hrs!!).
Also, any AP1 buyer who is complaining about being upgraded to AP2 needs a reality check. I'm in this boat. If I bought before AP2, my car would be worth $10-25k less.
lunitiks
Cool James & Black Teacher
Ok I'll give it another shot. HMMM! *neurons firing*
No. Still makes no sense.
Why is leasing any different than purchasing? What if you had to loan most of that money from the bank, agreeing to pay it back in monthly terms with interest? Or what if your 'all cash' purchase money were actually earned by you spending months or your life working and saving up for that thing?
I really don't see why people leasing the car should have any more right to complain than people buying it.
Perhaps if you were renting the car temporarily, and expecting that FSD would be enabled - and made legal - in your state/country while you were temporarily renting it... Maybe then you'd have a materially different case. Problem is, of course, you wouldn't be renting it from Tesla, and your expectations on timeframe wouldn't be due to the company. Plus you would be a moron.
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Indeed. No soup for you.Whiny cry baby.
I'd trade my AP1 for an otherwise equivalent AP2 car in a second. An AP2 car, plus my having learned deferred gratification in my childhood, and I'll be better off in the long run.
Those who didn't learn deferred gratification must lead horrible suffering lives.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if something has been lost in translation, but here in the US, leasing is pretty much like renting. The most common length is 3 years. So basically you are counting down the clock, and a 1 year delay is much more material to you.
If you "finance" the car, then basically it is the loan situation. But no matter if done by financing or cash, you typically will be keeping the car a bit (or much) longer than a person leasing, so the impact of delays is less.
The main and narrow camera has almost the same FOV and their distance supplement each other.
Main camera distance = 150 m
Narrow camera distance = 250 m
Redundant means one camera can go out and the other can take its place.
The wide cam CANNOT take the place of the main or narrow camera.
Its distance is 60m. Which would be disastrous for traveling faster than 30 mph.
This is why the functionality of the wide camera is expressively listed.
"120 degree fisheye lens captures traffic lights, obstacles cutting into the path of travel and objects at close range. Particularly useful in urban, low speed maneuvering."
Keyword: CLOSE RANGE, URBAN, LOW SPEED
The main camera which is exactly what was in AP1 with identical FOV and distance.
Was used for high speed operation as you know ap1 was up to 90mph.
The narrow camera description is that its "Useful in high-speed operation."
In conclusion the two cams can't replace the function of the wide cam and neither can the wide cam replace the function of the two cams.
Now do i advocate tesla to use main and narrow? no, i would much rather them use main and wide.
but if i'm wrong in my assesment i would get on my knees and repent.
But based on the testing done and the insider info. Only one camera is currently functioning and that's the main.
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lunitiks
Cool James & Black Teacher
Ok so now the Oct 19th announcement Q&A session is your source?
Because upthread you wrote:
(I literally can't find this anywhere on the website.)
Anyway, Elon Musk did not announce on Oct 19th which of the fwd cams will be active in EAP. What he actually said, was this:
You seem to draw your conclusion from the word "redundant", and assume that because of the FishEye cameras shorter range, it cannot be the "redundant" camera.
Well if that's the case - if that's all you base your conclusion on - then that's why we disagree. First of all: What's wrong with having the fisheye camera as a redundant camera? Why isn't the fisheye camera even better as redundancy - in urban environments? I'll argue that not only is it better, it is pretty much vital if EAP is supposed to deliver on "Smart Summon" and "Autosteer+". Because, if it's true that the Main camera has exactly the same optical properties as the AP1-camera (the same FOV and the same range), we already know that this isn't good enough for manuevering in tight, complex roads and "maneuvering around objects to come find you". The FOV is simply too narrow; there are too many blind spots. How is the narrow, long range camera supposed to solve that problem? Using the Main and Narrow camera as the only fwd cams in EAP would in my opinion be unwise.
Secondly: You're probably putting too much into the word "redundant". Redundant does not mean - it cannot mean - that one camera must be able to fill all of the Main camera's functions and properties, if the Main goes out. Because the three fwd cameras have different FOVs and different ranges. Sure, the FOV of the narrow camera is more like the FOV of the main. But it's still not the same FOV. This means that you would get more blind spots using the narrow camera only, than using the main camera only. So what's "worse": Being backed up by the Fisheye camera or the Narrow camera? It depends on where you're driving, right?
Again: I'm not claiming that I know which one is the redundant camera. Not at all - that's why I'm so engaged in these discussions trying to find it out. What I'm doing, is trying to make an educated guess based on the sources that people in here provide. And right now, I'm not seeing that your sources (or assumptions) are more valid than anyone else's.
Because upthread you wrote:
(I literally can't find this anywhere on the website.)
Anyway, Elon Musk did not announce on Oct 19th which of the fwd cams will be active in EAP. What he actually said, was this:
You seem to draw your conclusion from the word "redundant", and assume that because of the FishEye cameras shorter range, it cannot be the "redundant" camera.
Well if that's the case - if that's all you base your conclusion on - then that's why we disagree. First of all: What's wrong with having the fisheye camera as a redundant camera? Why isn't the fisheye camera even better as redundancy - in urban environments? I'll argue that not only is it better, it is pretty much vital if EAP is supposed to deliver on "Smart Summon" and "Autosteer+". Because, if it's true that the Main camera has exactly the same optical properties as the AP1-camera (the same FOV and the same range), we already know that this isn't good enough for manuevering in tight, complex roads and "maneuvering around objects to come find you". The FOV is simply too narrow; there are too many blind spots. How is the narrow, long range camera supposed to solve that problem? Using the Main and Narrow camera as the only fwd cams in EAP would in my opinion be unwise.
Secondly: You're probably putting too much into the word "redundant". Redundant does not mean - it cannot mean - that one camera must be able to fill all of the Main camera's functions and properties, if the Main goes out. Because the three fwd cameras have different FOVs and different ranges. Sure, the FOV of the narrow camera is more like the FOV of the main. But it's still not the same FOV. This means that you would get more blind spots using the narrow camera only, than using the main camera only. So what's "worse": Being backed up by the Fisheye camera or the Narrow camera? It depends on where you're driving, right?
Again: I'm not claiming that I know which one is the redundant camera. Not at all - that's why I'm so engaged in these discussions trying to find it out. What I'm doing, is trying to make an educated guess based on the sources that people in here provide. And right now, I'm not seeing that your sources (or assumptions) are more valid than anyone else's.
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lunitiks
Cool James & Black Teacher
Thanks for clearing that up. I did not know that the most common lenght is 3 years. Still, leasing does give you the option to buy the vehicle when the 3 year period is out, no?
NerdUno
Member
@lunitiks Before you sign up for that trip to Mars, you might want to brush up on what "redundant" means. If I were going to Mars and Elon promised redundancy, I would assume there was an alternative to assure I could get from Point A to Point B safely in the event of a primary failure. If you happened to be near-sighted, you'd better appreciate why a fisheye lens probably wouldn't cut it.
lunitiks
Cool James & Black Teacher
Sure, now try that logic when the main camera fails in city/urban environments. Safely navigating with the narrow camera?
Honestly, I think the need for a "redundant" fwd camera in the AP2-setup is overrated. They're all in the same enclosure, centimetres apart from each other, facing the same direction. Rain, snow, dust - weather - won't block just the Main camera: All of them will be out of service. If the Main camera fails, it will be due to technical or SW issues with the Main camera only. How likely that is, your guess is as good as mine.
I think it's much more likely that the need for 2 forward cameras in EAP has to do with a completely different challenge: Highway/freeway vs city/suburban environments.
Honestly, I think the need for a "redundant" fwd camera in the AP2-setup is overrated. They're all in the same enclosure, centimetres apart from each other, facing the same direction. Rain, snow, dust - weather - won't block just the Main camera: All of them will be out of service. If the Main camera fails, it will be due to technical or SW issues with the Main camera only. How likely that is, your guess is as good as mine.
I think it's much more likely that the need for 2 forward cameras in EAP has to do with a completely different challenge: Highway/freeway vs city/suburban environments.
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