Lemon Lawsuit for Model X refund

[Tam]

A longtime Californian owner, Barrett Lyon, of Roadster and Model S is suing Tesla for $161,970 purchase price of his new Model X plus damages (breach of warranty/lemon law) and cost of the lawsuit.

His complaints:

.Automatic door slam whacks your legs.
.Automatic doors flung open damaging doors and property.
.Autopilot veering across lanes in the rain.
.Repeated frozen touch screen.
. "second row seat causes driver's seat to fold forward,"

CNS - Man Calls His $162,000 Tesla Model X a Lemon

 

[jsollender]

I knew it would eventually show up in publicity that some owner would make a stink legally and demand a refund. Not good...

 

[Tam]

...Not good...

I missed his other complaint:

.Autopark fails 90%

Tesla Lemon lawsuits are so rare.

I don't think he has a case for beta Autopilot including Autopark since no one forced him to buy something called "beta."

The manual has stated clearly about its Autopilot limitations such as:

"Poor visibility (due to heavy rain, snow, fog, etc.)

So I think a jury will side with Tesla on the issue of imperfect beta Autopilot.

 

[jsollender]

TM will do everything to make it right....does that include refunding his $$$ and blacklisting him for future sales regardless of the outcome/settlement if this ever sees the light of a courtroom?

 

[mspohr]

I had a car (Audi) bought back under the Lemon Law. No need for a lawsuit.
It had an electrical/ignition problem (car would stop running) which they were unable to fix after 3 tries.
Went before a type of arbitration board which ruled in my favor. They bought it back.
I think it has to be some type of severe functional problem. Not sure if door problems and reboot screen would qualify. You have to give them three tries to fix it.

 

[jsollender]

Depends on what state you're in. TM sent lemon law docs to all reservists, which is 42 pages long, as each state has there own rules to follow. I know CA is 3 tries, but other states aren't as clear as to what defines a valiant attempt to fix.

 

[msnow]

TM will do everything to make it right....does that include refunding his $$$ and blacklisting him for future sales regardless of the outcome/settlement if this ever sees the light of a courtroom?

At least as far as CA is concerned, I think we all agreed to arbitration so a court and jury are likely not an option.

 

[ccutrer]

Funny... besides touch screen reboots, I see his complaints as disliking how things work, not necessarily that things are not working correctly. This one isn't even about bad latches or misalignment or not being able to drive the car. Maybe that's why it's going to a lawsuit - Tesla laughed at him when he asked for a refund cause he didn't like auto presenting doors, and he also didn't want to disable them.

 

[Tam]

On the issue of Autopilot, may be people don't appreciate what they bought!

Consumer Reports talked about the phenomenon of willingness to pay $2,500 to buy something that is called "beta."

And for those who bought it in 2014, it's actually a "truly vaporware" as the feature was not activated until a year later in 2015.

It's a phenomenon that Tesla owners have been "accepting" to be a "Guinea pig."

If you want to be on a leading edge of technology in Tesla, and although it may have many issues and not quite done yet, you can pay for that privilege.

If you are not that type of person as Consumer Reports talked about, then of course, we can see a lawsuit is filed as the result.

 

[Dr ValueSeeker]

I missed his other complaint:
So I think a jury will side with Tesla on the issue of imperfect beta Autopilot.

I don't see the word "beta" mentioned on Tesla's ordering site. Are you just imagining things or trying to come up with lame duck excuses to help Tesla? If it is beta, then that should be flashing in big letters on the ordering site. Or is it beta only when a lawsuit shows up at Tesla's doorsteps?

Order your Tesla Model S | Tesla Motors

Autopilot Convenience Features
Dramatically improve the convenience and enjoyment of road trips and your commute by automatically piloting Model S at highway speeds and in stop-and-go traffic. Autopilot enables Model S to match your speed to traffic conditions, steer around curves within the lane and automatically changes lanes with a tap of the turn signal. Summon, a recently released Autopilot feature, enables Model S to automatically park and unpark itself, opening and closing the garage door automatically. Model S can also scan for parking spaces, alert you when one is available and parallel park on command.

Very glad that finally someone did the right thing for Tesla by speaking his/her mind to public and filing the lemon lawsuit, and not being afraid of many threats and taunts from the fanboys. There is a limit on how long customers can be taken as guinea pigs.

 

[grommet]

The "lemon law" process in California makes the whole thing clear and easy, and no lawyers even need to be involved. I guess full buyback isn't enough, and he wants Tesla to pay so-called "damages" as well; the lemon law only allows limited "incidental damages".

 

[kort677]

On the issue of Autopilot, may be people don't appreciate what they bought!

Consumer Reports talked about the phenomenon of willingness to pay $2,500 to buy something that is called "beta."

Bingo, his AP complaints won't fly. IT'S ONLY A BETA.
his issues with the doors have some validity

 

[Tam]

...Are you just imagining things...

Are you implying that Consumer Reports (who did not recommend Tesla because it said the car's reliability is below average) making up stories to defend Tesla about its "beta" status of Autopilot?

However, you've got a very valid point on whether the status "beta" is LEGALLY documented, not just a common understanding through verbal instructions, advertisements, reviews, youtube...

On the owner's complaint of "veering in the rain," Tesla manual clearly says that:

"Note: Autosteer is a BETA feature in Release 7.0."

And as mentioned above, "veering in the rain" is a correct warning in the manual:

---

"Limitations

Autosteer is particularly unlikely to operate as intended in the following situations:

• Autosteer is unable to accurately determine lane markings due to poor visibility (heavy rain, snow, fog, etc.), or an obstructed, covered, or damaged camera or sensor.

• The road has sharp curves or is excessively rough.

• Bright light (such as direct sunlight) is interfering with the camera's view.

• The sensors are affected by other electrical equipment or devices that generate ultrasonic waves.

Warning: Many unforeseen circumstances can impair the operation of Autosteer.

Always keep this in mind and remember that as a result, Autosteer may not assist in steering Model X appropriately. Always drive attentively and be prepared to take immediate action.

---

So it may be true that Tesla does not emphasize the word "beta" or calling its owners as "Guinea pigs" on its website, but when Consumer Reports reads Tesla manual that is full of warnings and disclosures of restrictions, limitations, failures, potential mishaps, injuries, and deaths, Consumer Reports, who is not a lawyer, does not hesitate to call Autopilot as "beta" and its onwers as "Guinea pig."

 

[Boourns]

The article said he sued for "damages for breach of warranty" and lemon law violations. It's possible that "it's a beta" isn't a defense to the breach of warranty claim. Doesn't look like the complaint is available online, though, so it's hard to determine exactly what his legal claims are.

 

[Dr ValueSeeker]

@Tam,
It's no good if the buyer discovers that he paid for beta features through the owner's manual, that he gets only after he buys the car. He has to know that he is buying beta features before placing his order. So, he must be informed of such on the ordering page. Currently, both Model X and S ordering pages don't have any mention of the word "beta".

 

[vandacca]

I don't see the word "beta" mentioned on Tesla's ordering site. Are you just imagining things or trying to come up with lame duck excuses to help Tesla? If it is beta, then that should be flashing in big letters on the ordering site. Or is it beta only when a lawsuit shows up at Tesla's doorsteps?
...

From the Manual:

 

[omarsultan]

I am not seeing how this is a lemon law issue (this is for CA):

Within the Song-Beverly Act, there is a presumption guideline wherein it is presumed that a vehicle is a “lemon” if the following criteria are met within 18 months of delivery to the buyer or lessee or 18,000 miles on the vehicle’s odometer, whichever comes rst:

• The manufacturer or its agents have made two or more attempts to repair a warranty problem that results in a condition that is likely to cause death or serious bodily injury if the vehicle is driven;
  
  
• The manufacturer or its agents have made four or more attempts to repair the same warranty problem; or
  
  
• The vehicle has been out of service for more than 30 days (not necessarily all at the same time) while being repaired for any number of warranty problems; or
  
  
• The problems are covered by the warranty, substantially reduce the vehicle’s use, value, or safety to the consumer and are not caused by abuse of the vehicle;
  
  
• If required by the warranty materials or by the owner’s manual, the consumer has to directly notify the manufacturer about the problem(s), preferably in writing. The notice must be sent to the address shown in the warranty or owner’s manual (for bullets 1 and 2).
  
  If these criteria are met, the Lemon Law presumes that the buyer or lessee is entitled to a replacement vehicle or a refund of the purchase price. However, this presumption is rebuttable. The manufacturer may show that the criteria has not been met (for example, because the problems are minor) and therefore, the buyer or lessee is not entitled to a replacement vehicle or refund.

 

[Boourns]

I am not seeing how this is a lemon law issue (this is for CA):

That is probably why he included the breach of warranty, and possibly other, claims.

 

[msnow]

@Tam,
It's no good if the buyer discovers that he paid for beta features through the owner's manual, that he gets only after he buys the car. He has to know that he is buying beta features before placing his order. So, he must be informed of such on the ordering page. Currently, both Model X and S ordering pages don't have any mention of the word "beta".

He does (or should) when he goes through the walk through of the 17" and apps with the DA before he signs off and accepts the car.

 

[Tam]

..."damages for breach of warranty" and lemon law violations...

There is no details so it's a guess from the charges that the owner complains that:

1) he has to pay to fix something that should be covered under warranty.
2) he invoked the lemon law but Tesla didn't comply and wouldn't take the car back.

It wouldn't be reasonable to demand an immediate fix to his "veering in the rain" problem because that
is the scenario that is specifically mentioned in the manual.

However, it is reasonable to give feed back to Tesla and hope it will improve in subsequent updates.