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Lightweight wheel owners - your feedback on unsprung reduction vs stock

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Do you know of an objective way manufacturers post sidewall stiffness?


Why do you recommend this?
here are the ratings for Model 3 tires in the recommended sizes
Comparison of Model 3 compatible tires (235/45-18", 235/40-19", 235/35-20") according to ratings from TireRack and TyreReviews (sorted by tire category and rating)


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Do you know of an objective way manufacturers post sidewall stiffness?

Yes there is and they usually include that in reviews of the tire if you search the internet for reviews on a particular tire they will tell you which tire wall is stiffer or not. tires that have the stiffest sidewalls are usually run flats, but that's not typically good for handling.


Why do you recommend this?

Because its the best tire. If you are leaning toward comfort/range, go with the PS4 TO tire, if you lean towards performance go with the PS4. Both tires are performance tires though.
The Michelin/Tesla developed TO tire has a harder compound in the middle section of tire for lower rolling resistance which increases range. The foam on the inside is supposedly for noise reduction, although its hard to measure it accurately, I do not think they would put it there for no reason.

This post packs a lot of misinformation into a compact space.

First of all range has almost nothing to do with unsprung weight. While that does impact 0 to 60 times in terms of increased versus decreased rotational inertia, it does not impact range. Secondly, I'm not sure who you're referencing when you talk about how everybody complains about range and 0 to 60 times? Who's complaining? Third, the range for the Dual Motor Performance version is actually 310 miles and not 280 mile

While you are correct that lower unsprung weight decreases acceleration time, any weight that is removed will increase the range, sprung or unsprung. For me, going from 20" OEM to 18" saved me about 10lb per corner, total of 40lb. So while it increases my 0-60 times, the weight reduction will also increase range. What will also increase the range is the better aerodymanics with the smaller wheels. I measured this to about a 5% range increase, and confirmed with my friend who also did the same wheel change as me.

I have a P3D+ and I can tell you that there is no way I ever get 280 miles of highway range. At 70mph I average around 300Wh/mile which translates to around 220 miles of range, if we assume the battery pack is 71kW/h. With mixed driving in optimal weather, I might be able to stretch it to 280 miles per charge, but in most situations its not realistic. I was speaking with a guy who just got his P3D delivered, and he was showing 204 miles of projected range. Its the big very inefficient 20" wheels that are killing the range.

You can clearly see the difference in acceleration between the two wheels here:

Very good explanation here:

And here:
 
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That's why you keep your 18" aeros for when range matters, and get a set of square 19 x 9.5s on 265s for party time.
I’d like to see some 18” Gemini’s that fit P3D+ brakes as I’m not a fan of how much quality 19” tires cost (in many cases as much or more than 20’s)

As to above that: Interesting observation on the tire compounds on TO tires. If true though I’d like to see how much consumption actually goes up using the non TO spec.
 
As to above that: Interesting observation on the tire compounds on TO tires. If true though I’d like to see how much consumption actually goes up using the non TO spec.

I would also love to see a proper test of this. Also an efficiency test between the PS4, PS4S and the respective TO tires. Maybe we can lobby Engineering Explained or Out of Spec motoring to do one? Toss Micheling Energy Saver A/S in there too.
 
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“Range”...
range is way more reduced from offsets and wheel drag + tire treads/ compound than wheel weight.
I've run(to tha cords!) 10 sets of tires on my P85 and 5 different wheels sets.
have a 3p- waiting to try on its set of 19" sportline 8.5" w/ 265 RE71R wheels / right around 20lb (&only $799 for the set)

Pic-if anyone wants something different - I have 20" BC forged on my S(front) that are really nice wheels & under 20Lb. Seems the price went up a bunch with the tax crap though or I would have bought some for the 3. CF5V staggered Forgestars in back.
I think you can get both on a 3. I'll take some pics of the 3 when it gets dressed for auto cross in a couple of weeks(pray for no/minimal rain!!)


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I understand that there may technically be a difference when switching from one weight of wheel / tire to another. But having said that, I think that most of the perceived gain / loss is all in your heads. We are talking about a 3600-4000 pound car with ~50 pounds in each wheel & tire, and we are being told of the huge changes a 3-5 pound shift makes? I have a hard time believing that.

But given that 20 inch wheels have very low profile tires and 18s are better but not by much, I'm sure 18's feel better in daily driving.

Way back when I had my old 1971 Plymouth Valiant, it had the 14 inch stamped steel wheels with (usually) 205-75-14 tires. I drove that car about 130,000 miles, over all sorts of roads, and never bent a rim on a pothole. and I had many other Chrysler made cars of similar age and wheel / tire sizes over the years, and had few tire problems.

And this new theory that the offset of the wheel makes a huge difference? No. Simply no. Offset is just moving the tire in or out a bit from the centerline of the car. And by a few millimeters. Nothing significant enough to affect what's being mentioned that I can see.
 
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OK, the OP question was about unsprung reduction vs stock.
For a P85 S the difference is immense between different wheels/tires and that car is 4900lb.
Offset makes a bigger difference in aero drag but probably doesn't change handling in any meaningful way, more for looks and fitments of suspension etc. (not 100% sure so argue if you want)
Wheel weight makes a big difference in turn feel. Sidewall, tire construction and compound make just as much if not as much difference too.
3-5 lb off a corner is pretty big. the 20" and 19" Tesla wheels are super heavy (stock 21" on the S were insane 62.5 lb per corner!, replaced with 48 lb / corner)
only reason I got 19" instead of 18" for the 3 is so I could fit 265s on the stock size width wheel. An 18" would probably be better if they made an RE71R that would fit
 
5-10lbs difference in wheel weight makes a big difference in suspension performance, that’s for sure. Steering feel and feedback are more affected by offset and tyre width. On a road car, the best option is a lightweight wheel with standard offset and tyre width.
 
Yes there is and they usually include that in reviews of the tire if you search the internet for reviews on a particular tire they will tell you which tire wall is stiffer or not. tires that have the stiffest sidewalls are usually run flats, but that's not typically good for handling.

While you are correct that lower unsprung weight decreases acceleration time, any weight that is removed will increase the range, sprung or unsprung. For me, going from 20" OEM to 18" saved me about 10lb per corner, total of 40lb. So while it increases my 0-60 times, the weight reduction will also increase range. What will also increase the range is the better aerodymanics with the smaller wheels. I measured this to about a 5% range increase, and confirmed with my friend who also did the same wheel change as me.

Unfortunately that impressive 40 pound weight savings translates into 1% of vehicle mass. Even though it's reciprocating mass which reduces the inertial load on the drivetrain, once it is has spun up, the energy is spent in a sense. Most of that 5% savings instead is likely coming from increased rolling resistance in the super low profile tires, and also the aerodynamic losses associated with the larger wheel. The Michelin Pilot Sport 4S in the 235/35 Size also has a broader tread than any other 235/35 Pilots Sport 4S tire, extra tread width which of course contributes directly to drag (even though the less radical tire has a 235 section width, its tread is narrower by 3-4%). Additionally the 4S tire is not set up to maximize low rolling resistance but traction. So that 5% range gain has little to do with a 1% 40 pound weight loss (well perhaps 1% of it might!) and has much more to do with the aerodynamics and rolling resistance of the tires in the comparison.
 
Below is the quote I was reacting to:

First of all range has almost nothing to do with unsprung weight. While that does impact 0 to 60 times in terms of increased versus decreased rotational inertia, it does not impact range

Yeah... but it does impact range. Saying that weight does not impact range is just not true, and is the kind of misinformation you mentioned you did not like. Just take a look at how much more efficient the SR+ is compared to the LR. In my opinion, the LR does not need a bigger battery. It needs to trim about 500lb in weight, which should not be that difficult, according to Munroe. The M3 is really overbuilt.


Even though it's reciprocating mass which reduces the inertial load on the drivetrain, once it is has spun up, the energy is spent in a sense.

You need more energy to move more weight. Even if you keep exactly the same speed. Some is retrieved during slowdown due to regen, but far from all.

BTW, I went from 20" OEM to 18" - both Pilot Sport 4S tires. The only difference being the 20" PS4S was a TO tire, but because Michelin does not make a "Tesla specific" 18" tire, I went with the generic one. I am attaching a picture of the two side by side. The right one is the 20" PS4S Tesla specific (TO) tire.
 

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Below is the quote I was reacting to:



Yeah... but it does impact range. Saying that weight does not impact range is just not true, and is the kind of misinformation you mentioned you did not like. Just take a look at how much more efficient the SR+ is compared to the LR. In my opinion, the LR does not need a bigger battery. It needs to trim about 500lb in weight, which should not be that difficult, according to Munroe. The M3 is really overbuilt.




You need more energy to move more weight. Even if you keep exactly the same speed. Some is retrieved during slowdown due to regen, but far from all.

BTW, I went from 20" OEM to 18" - both Pilot Sport 4S tires. The only difference being the 20" PS4S was a TO tire, but because Michelin does not make a "Tesla specific" 18" tire, I went with the generic one. I am attaching a picture of the two side by side. The right one is the 20" PS4S Tesla specific (TO) tire.
Was it really 500 lbs? Sounds extreme - I thought it was 100 - 200 tops, and that's based on fuzzy recollection. Honestly, I'm not even sure I've ever heard the guy discussing potential weight savings... might've been mfg cost per chassis.
 
Was it really 500 lbs? Sounds extreme - I thought it was 100 - 200 tops, and that's based on fuzzy recollection. Honestly, I'm not even sure I've ever heard the guy discussing potential weight savings... might've been mfg cost per chassis.

I was saying it would be great to trim 500lb, not Munroe. Munroe said it was built like a Sherman tank, that it was overbuilt and that there are lots of potential for weight savings. He talked about building some parts in fiberglass instead like most car makers do. I do not think shaving 500lb would be crazy. Heck, the glass roof alone must weigh a ton (not to mention that weight is in the worst part of the car - high up).
 

People should really stop following these charts. Tirerack themselves willl tell you that the ratings are considered for THAT category of tire. A tire with dry performance of 9.3 in touring all season, likely has worst grip than a 8.0 in ultra high performance all season.

I'm telling you, I went from conti pure contact to conti dws and its really not close. Tires and wheels are literally the best thing you can do for the car. Night and day difference between 26+ lb wheels with conti pure contact vs 23lb wheels and DWS. I DID NOT like the car on the heavier setup and touring tire. I LOVE the car now (although itd be even better with summer tires :) )
 
I see several threads around (mainly) p3d owners downsizing from the stock 20" to a lightweight 18 , 19, or even forged 20 setup. That said, I'm not seeing much direct feedback on how the reduction of unsprung weight changed your opinion on the feel of your 3....

My situation - on my dual motor non perf car, I went from aeros/mxm4 to a heavier 19" setup that weighs 52lb per wheel tire (26lb tire + 26lb rim). Obvious loss of range due to tire patch/offset/weight. However, random sidenote, it does seem that weight is only part of the range equation and the actual wheel design and offset are heavy contributors. Interested in comments on that, but my main thing is the FEEL of a 3 with lighter wheels.

As soon as I first drove my car, I could feel either the slightly increased diameter (245/40), or the "heavy" feel when moving from a stop and changing directions. Maybe the offset is part of this also (+33 vs +40 stock). I love the look of my 19's but I miss the "nimble" or "lighter on its feet" feeling of the aero wheels and am tempted to go for a forged 19, or hell, even put back on my aeros as the aeros are kinda hard to beat for a daily driver (or at the very least, throw on the aeros for science and to see if its a placebo effect). On other cars, when I've gone to lighter wheels, I love the eager, light feeling when coming from a stop light or changing direction.

Just looking for feedback of people who have either gone to heavy wheels, and the change in feel does/does not bother them - or - gone to lightweight wheels who really appreciate the nimble feel and would never go back.

Thanks!

I've had experience with three different sets of aftermarket wheels, all pretty positive but with different strengths and weaknesses:

1) Advanti (23.5 and 24.5 lbs) from Tire Rack but no longer available. Good value in a "rotary forged" wheel (around 300 bucks a wheel) with decent weight reduction (4-5 lbs) relative to stock OEM 20 inch wheels which weigh roughly 28.75 pounds. Good value but appear to be prone to impact defamation or at least more prone than the next two options;

2) Vorsteiner VFF 107's (25/27 lbs in 20x9 and 20x10.5 sizes also rotary or flow formed), but appear to be stronger than the Advanti wheels, and much less prone to deformation but of course they are about 1.5/2 lbs heavier so they should be. I got these on sale, so also excellent value at $400/wheel, normally $600/650. Got these from EVS, a good outfit. If you want to get these I'd wait for their sale because at this price they are roughly the same cost as VS forged - a way better option for the money.

3) VS Forged, in the VS 14 style. IMO, the best option, at only $650/wheel, which frankly is cheap for forged custom-built wheels , but VERY light at 22 lbs in the popular 20X9 size, 23 lbs for the larger 20x10.5. I got these from get your wheels.com. Highly recommended. Jason is a stand-up guy. Super lightweight, super strong, but of course a bit more money. Worth every penny. Plus I could tune offsets to my application which in this case had to do with Racing Brake aftermarket rotors which chew up 5 mm from thicker rotor hats, necessitating front offsets at 40 mm and rear at 50. That's about the most positive offset you can run on the front at 9.5 inch wheel width and still have the wheel and sidewall clear the front suspension knuckle.

Discernible difference relative to Vorsteiner in from dropping 20 lb of unsprung weight, with significantly more compliance over bumps and small impacts. Zero to 60 went from 3.3 to 3.2 on dragy, after dropping roughly 4 to 5 lb a corner relative to the Vorsteiners, which in turn were 4/2 lbs lighter front/rear compared to very heavy OEM. I ran a 7.45 at 95 miles an hour at 1/8 mile drags at Miami Dade on the heavier Vorsteiner staggered setup. Don't have a comparable time on the VS 14 forged but will try to get one and post it, without getting a massive ticket. I also decided to go for minimally staggered namely 9.5 by 20 in front and 10.5 by 20 in rear, allowing me to comfortably Mount 265 / 30 Michelin Pilot Sport 4S in front and a Tesla specific 275 / 30 Tire in the rear. I thought that minimally staggered would still give some appearance advantages without as much potentiation of understeer at the limit. Somewhat concerned about potential range hit from 265 / 30 on the front, particularly given that the front tire is both significantly wider and not Tesla specific. Don't have those on the car yet. - have to wait until I go through the stock 235 / 35 4S front tires.

Overall recommendation: save your money until you can afford the best namely VS forged or some other forged wheel, preferably one where you can get custom offsets. If you can't swing that kind of cash, go with 19's which will save you some weight and money and give you a bigger sidewall. Car looks fabulous with 20 inch wheels but we all know the trade-offs: increased unsprung weight, increased vulnerability of both the wheel and the tire to impact damage, and significant extra cost for the larger wheel and also for the super low profile tires. That's a lot of trade-offs but of course you get to decide what you're willing to sacrifice in order to get a certain aesthetic. I'm amazed overall at how well the car rides, and the transient response particularly with the coilovers from Mountain Pass, and shocks set pretty firm, is phenomenal. Looking forward to seeing the handling with the 265 / 30 front 4S!

But if you got to have that Ultra low-profile ultra-wide look, the 20-inch setup is pretty sweet.

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I measured this to about a 5% range increase, and confirmed with my friend who also did the same wheel change as me.

I have a P3D+ and I can tell you that there is no way I ever get 280 miles of highway range. At 70mph I average around 300Wh/mile which translates to around 220 miles of range, if we assume the battery pack is 71kW/h. With mixed driving in optimal weather, I might be able to stretch it to 280 miles per charge, but in most situations its not realistic. I was speaking with a guy who just got his P3D delivered, and he was showing 204 miles of projected range. Its the big very inefficient 20" wheels that are killing the range.

You can clearly see the difference in acceleration between the two wheels here:

Very good explanation here:

And here:



Only a 5% range increase? I was hoping for closer to 10% switching to my Titan 7 18x8.5.

the aeros seem