Looking for definitive answer: Does the 20 year NEM lock get reset when a new NEM2 system is added to a NEM1 system?

[RKCRLR]

Technically it's the export size of the Powerwalls. IIRC the Tesla Powerwall 2 is still a 5 kW export nameplate so 3x of them is 15,000 of export potential. Added to my 6.7 kWp AC of solar export, PG&E counts my "system size" to be 21.7 kW AC of total energy going onto their infrastructure.

So, they required an extra $1,000 interconnect fee (for NEM2-MT) and that insurance malarkey. I think it's stupid nobody on the NEM 3.0 PD discussion mentions that PG&E already takes a heft up-front fixed cost charge to connect PV+ESS systems under NEM2-MT.

Well, this will be interesting...

I could call PG&E for an answer but they may or may not give me the correct information. And whatever their answer is they probably won't give it to me in writing.

I currently have the problem that my 2 Powerwall 2's won't reliably start my AC during a power outage (my AC isn't compatible with a SureStart). They want to use load shedding to remove the AC from backup or for me to add a 3rd Powerwall (Series 3) at a discounted price. They told me doing nothing would cause my warranty to be voided. I told them that the contract was for a whole home backup and to go pound sand. I wanted them to replace my 2 Powerwall 2's with Series 3 Powerwalls (I'd accept remanufactured units) and they told me to go pound sand.

Between the grandfathering date going off the original install and the draconian measures being proposed for NEM 3 I told Tesla I would reconsider and opt for the 3rd Powerwall. But if they try to increase their price to cover any additional costs they didn't plan for then I'll be back to telling them to go pound sand.

Does naming PG&E as an insured increase the insurance premium?

 

[holeydonut]

Well, this will be interesting...

I could call PG&E for an answer but they may or may not give me the correct information. And whatever their answer is they probably won't give it to me in writing.

I currently have the problem that my 2 Powerwall 2's won't reliably start my AC during a power outage (my AC isn't compatible with a SureStart). They want to use load shedding to remove the AC from backup or for me to add a 3rd Powerwall (Series 3) at a discounted price. They told me doing nothing would cause my warranty to be voided. I told them that the contract was for a whole home backup and to go pound sand. I wanted them to replace my 2 Powerwall 2's with Series 3 Powerwalls (I'd accept remanufactured units) and they told me to go pound sand.

Between the grandfathering date going off the original install and the draconian measures being proposed for NEM 3 I told Tesla I would reconsider and opt for the 3rd Powerwall. But if they try to increase their price to cover any additional costs they didn't plan for then I'll be back to telling them to go pound sand.

Does naming PG&E as an insured increase the insurance premium?

FYI, I edited my previous post about "stupid people"... didn't mean stupid people on TMC. I meant the people deliberating with the CPUC since they make it sound like NEM 2 customers aren't paying fees for "fixed costs". The NEM2-MT interconnect fee is huge, and was partially intended to be a one time up front kick in the face for the luxury of pushing kW to the grid).

I think your unique situation is super-tough... I'm glad they're offering you something to try and meet in the middle. I think the pros you pinged on HVAC Talk seem to think your demand is too much ... while a regular consumer would probably think your installer is at fault for not understanding the full situation before quoting you. It's no surprise to me that "pros" are not taking your side citing an unforeseen surprise about your monster AC as something they couldn't have reasonably predicted.

I think the general theme is that you never should have been told that 2 Powerwalls could provide a whole home backup solution at your property. And, nobody currently makes a whole home backup that can cover your home at a similar price of what you have paid so far. So, even if someone made the incorrect claim only 2 PW would work at the time of sale, that mistake itself doesn't mean you're owed a free PW.

The sales person being wrong from a technical standpoint was discovered only after the project was completed and you all learned how your unique AC unit responded (or didn't respond). And, it's not like you gave up pursuing another option for equal/less money from a competing bid. So, If the backed up AC is super important to you, I personally think it's a positive your installer is willing to work with you to try and meet somewhere in the middle on the 3rd battery.

Regarding your insurance, you'll need to talk to your agent. I went through State Farm, and it was an extra $150 per year (increased my premium 7%). But I'm also aware that some insurance companies are straight up dropping people from coverage related to fire risk, so it's not clear who would want to put a rider/addendum to name PG&E as an insured. Kind of stupid PG&E won't insure your home if they burn your house down. But the want you to insure them.

 

[arnolddeleon]

Well, this will be interesting...

I could call PG&E for an answer but they may or may not give me the correct information. And whatever their answer is they probably won't give it to me in writing.

I currently have the problem that my 2 Powerwall 2's won't reliably start my AC during a power outage (my AC isn't compatible with a SureStart). They want to use load shedding to remove the AC from backup or for me to add a 3rd Powerwall (Series 3) at a discounted price. They told me doing nothing would cause my warranty to be voided. I told them that the contract was for a whole home backup and to go pound sand. I wanted them to replace my 2 Powerwall 2's with Series 3 Powerwalls (I'd accept remanufactured units) and they told me to go pound sand.

Between the grandfathering date going off the original install and the draconian measures being proposed for NEM 3 I told Tesla I would reconsider and opt for the 3rd Powerwall. But if they try to increase their price to cover any additional costs they didn't plan for then I'll be back to telling them to go pound sand.

Does naming PG&E as an insured increase the insurance premium?

I would take the 3rd Powerwall if I could afford it. If you have a generation panel and there is room it is almost trivial to add the 3rd Powerwall. I would consider that a lucky break since it sounds like they are offering the Powerwall at a discount. With any luck you will get a new PTO date and your clock is reset.

It would be an awfully poorly written contract on Tesla's part if they had to provide whole house backup no matter the loads. Tesla had plenty of examples of lousy support but I don't think they are being unreasonable in their offer here (load shed or extra Powerwall at a discount). My experience has been Tesla doesn't nickel and dime once the substance of the contract has been setup. You do have stay on top of things. I had a fully executed contract with a fixed price for a main service panel replacement. By the time the install date came about the paperwork was showing a higher price (they had raised their price) I pointed that out and they corrected it and honored the original contracted price. They also ended up installing bigger generation panel for me without charging me extra because that's what they could get their hands on. This turned out great for me because it simplified my 3rd Powerwall and PV expansion. On the other hand they didn't charge me less for 3rd Powerwall install and PV addition even though I know they had to do far less work to install to it. I thought it was fair.

 

[RKCRLR]

^^^
There are other manual soft start devices that would likely work with my system but Tesla insists on only using devices from HyperEngineering. Soft start devices are very common in industrial applications and there is no reason a non-computerized device wouldn't work on a reverse run motor. I provided them with all the information they asked for during the planning process. They admitted they looked at the wrong revision of the specification for my unit (although they still may have made the same mistake if they had pulled at the correct revision).

To me, the smartest thing to do would be to use a different sure start device or replace my 2 Powerwall 2's with 2 remanufactured Series 3 Powerwalls. No new permits, no new PTO, etc.

I'm already on the California FAIR plan for fire insurance. I won't accept me paying any more for fire insurance because Tesla wants me to install more Powerwalls than I agreed to.

 

[RKCRLR]

I would take the 3rd Powerwall if I could afford it. If you have a generation panel and there is room it is almost trivial to add the 3rd Powerwall. I would consider that a lucky break since it sounds like they are offering the Powerwall at a discount. With any luck you will get a new PTO date and your clock is reset.

It would be an awfully poorly written contract on Tesla's part if they had to provide whole house backup no matter the loads. Tesla had plenty of examples of lousy support but I don't think they are being unreasonable in their offer here (load shed or extra Powerwall at a discount). My experience has been Tesla doesn't nickel and dime once the substance of the contract has been setup. You do have stay on top of things. I had a fully executed contract with a fixed price for a main service panel replacement. By the time the install date came about the paperwork was showing a higher price (they had raised their price) I pointed that out and they corrected it and honored the original contracted price. They also ended up installing bigger generation panel for me without charging me extra because that's what they could get their hands on. This turned out great for me because it simplified my 3rd Powerwall and PV expansion. On the other hand they didn't charge me less for 3rd Powerwall install and PV addition even though I know they had to do far less work to install to it. I thought it was fair.

Perhaps. But I can get my AC to work now if I play around with it (I have to manually turn it on when solar is generating). I told them I would accept load shedding if I were allowed to continue to manually control when the AC starts. They told me they would not install the load shedding that way and that if I modified the load shedding wiring they would void my Powerwall warranty.

To me, telling me that I have to either let them remove functionality from my system or pay more money to keep my warranty intact is unacceptable.

With regards to the PTO reset, did you ever manage to get anything from PG&E in writing that that a new PTO resets the 20 year period? Everything I've seen in writing so far implies they go off the original install date.

 

[slcasner]

What Series 3 Powerwall? You mean the newer Powerwall 2 with a part number beginning with '3' (if I'm remembering the other threads correctly)? I saw a comment in another thread by someone wanting to wait for a Powerwall 3 and the answer was, "don't hold your breath."

 

[RKCRLR]

What Series 3 Powerwall? You mean the newer Powerwall 2 with a part number beginning with '3' (if I'm remembering the other threads correctly)? I saw a comment in another thread by someone wanting to wait for a Powerwall 3 and the answer was, "don't hold your breath."

Tesla refers to the Powerwalls that have an increased surge rating (higher LRA rating for starting motors) as Series 3 Powerwalls. These are not Powerwall 3s.

They don't refer to them as Powerwall 2 on their website anymore. They have either Powerwall+ or Powerwalls.

 

[holeydonut]

To me, telling me that I have to either let them remove functionality from my system or pay more money to keep my warranty intact is unacceptable.

Since your system as installed does not work as a whole home backup including your AC... I think you're now facing a decision to:
1) accept the proposed change with Tesla or
2) find another course of action, but without Tesla's support.

I don't think you can have your cake and eat it too. Have you been able to find a single licensed HVAC pro who thinks your system could be a whole home backup by simply adding some hack/soft-start?

If the answer is "no", I think Tesla's proposal is the best choice for you.

If the answer is "yes", you can pay the HVAC person to install whatever hack, then take Tesla to small claims to pay for this parts/labor.

IIRC you did find an HVAC installer willing to put a brand new condenser in, but I don't think that option is realistic or price effective compared to Tesla's proposal.

 

[arnolddeleon]

The Powerwall warranty thing is interesting. I think Tesla installed soft start on my heat pump (I wasn't paying attention closely at that time). The compressor on that heat pump failed and I ended up replacing it with a higher efficiency inverter based variable speed compressor that doesn't have 3rd party external soft start system because the variable speed makes it soft start. I didn't communicate anything to Tesla. The point being I modified the load behind my Powerwall (didn't change any breakers) and I didn't worry about my warranty.

On a similar note I went back and forth with Tesla when I ordered my first two Powerwalls because I had a large enough PV system that it was theoretically possible my PV to exceed the ability of the Powerwalls to absorb all the generation. They originally wanted to sell me a 3rd Powerwall then. I said I understood the limitation (e.g. I could potentially end up in situation where the Powerwalls were not charging). They eventually relented and let me stay on a two Powerwall configuration. I ended up regretting not buying that 3rd Powerwall. I obviously corrected that last year.

Do you have power outages regularly where you need A/C? If it was my decision branches goes as follows: If I can afford the 3rd PW I would go for it because the utility is quite high on having that extra battery. If I'm super tight on finance then I just learn what you have already learned and make the change *when* I need it assuming this is "disaster" situation and not the common case. If you need A/C *and* outages happen regularly *and* finances are limited then it is a tough situation. But running A/C with only two Powerwalls is pretty dodgy (from a run time perspective) anyway.

I don't have anything written from PG&E. My next step I think is try to contact the CPUC so see if I can figure something out from there. There is a part of me just going with "let sleeping dogs lie" because all the information I've been able to get is in my favor. I'm currently looking to add solar on a rental property to trigger a reset on that one.

 

[buckets0fun]

Well then.

This NEM2-MT stuff doesn’t seem like the bee’s knees. My contract would look something like 50-something kW AC. PGE might dislike me and force me into installing a bunch of disconnect switches along with some hefty interconnect fees.

Has anyone that’s been tesla installed @ 4-8pw, in CA, been forced to go through all of these measures?

 

[RKCRLR]

Since your system as installed does not work as a whole home backup including your AC... I think you're now facing a decision to:
1) accept the proposed change with Tesla or
2) find another course of action, but without Tesla's support.

I don't think you can have your cake and eat it too. Have you been able to find a single licensed HVAC pro who thinks your system could be a whole home backup by simply adding some hack/soft-start?

If the answer is "no", I think Tesla's proposal is the best choice for you.

If the answer is "yes", you can pay the HVAC person to install whatever hack, then take Tesla to small claims to pay for this parts/labor.

IIRC you did find an HVAC installer willing to put a brand new condenser in, but I don't think that option is realistic or price effective compared to Tesla's proposal.

I had initially told Tesla that I would accept load shedding. My system has specific terminals for load shedding that is compatible with the Gateway load shedding terminals and an option in my HVAC settings to enable load shedding (which I tested and confirm working). That would allow me to manually start the AC when the solar is producing.

When I asked how they were going to incorporate the load shedding they told me they were going to "splice into the 24v twisted pair running between the AC contactor and my thermostat". Well, that told me they didn't understand my computerized HVAC system. I have 3 thermostats that control 3 different zones. Those thermostats digitally communicate with the main board on my air handler (not the AC contactor) with 4 wires (Data A, Data B, 24v power, and common). So they would have to splice into all 3 thermostat wire sets if they wanted to avoid a call for the AC to operate. Additionally, my system is a hybrid system that I use for propane heat in the winter so if they cut power to the thermostats then I wouldn't be able to use the heat in the winter. The air handler board communicates with a separate controller board on the outside unit using the same 4 wire Data A, Data B, 24v, and common protocol. The AC contactor has a separate connector that plugs directly into the control board but it doesn't operate of 24v. So they would have to splice into the communication wires if they wanted to use low voltage. Doing that would probably make my unit throw a bunch of error codes and make it inoperable.

I suspect the installer they send out would realize all this and do what makes sense. He might even do it properly and use the load shedding terminals. The hard part is running and burying the 250" length of wire between my HVAC and the Gateway. My play was to let them do their thing and then wire it properly using the load shedding terminals (which they are currently refusing to use). However, they sent me an email saying that if I were to modify the load shedding wiring that they would void my warranty. So that stopped that dead in its tracks.

The few HVAC service companies I reached out to just wanted to sell me new equipment and weren't interested in installing a soft start device. This is really outside of their realm unless the the device is specifically made for an AC unit. I spoke to a representative from Schneider Electric about their soft start devices. He saw no reason why one of their units wouldn't work on a reverse run AC compressor but I would likely need to find a qualified electrician to get it installed properly. I was considering doing this but I don't want to be the one experimenting.

If a whole home backup doesn't guarantee the hole home will be backed up then they should specify which items will not work during backup. I'm willing to live with the system the way it is if it doesn't invalidate my warranty. Tesla installed it this way and they should stand behind it. If they are unhappy with their installation they should fix it at no cost to me without requiring me to remove a feature that is currently working albeit not optimally.

As I said I've accepted their offer of a 3rd Powerwall as a compromise. But there was no mention of me having to get more insurance. If there are any additional costs over what they have proposed then I'm back to other alternatives.

 

[RKCRLR]

The Powerwall warranty thing is interesting. I think Tesla installed soft start on my heat pump (I wasn't paying attention closely at that time). The compressor on that heat pump failed and I ended up replacing it with a higher efficiency inverter based variable speed compressor that doesn't have 3rd party external soft start system because the variable speed makes it soft start. I didn't communicate anything to Tesla. The point being I modified the load behind my Powerwall (didn't change any breakers) and I didn't worry about my warranty.

On a similar note I went back and forth with Tesla when I ordered my first two Powerwalls because I had a large enough PV system that it was theoretically possible my PV to exceed the ability of the Powerwalls to absorb all the generation. They originally wanted to sell me a 3rd Powerwall then. I said I understood the limitation (e.g. I could potentially end up in situation where the Powerwalls were not charging). They eventually relented and let me stay on a two Powerwall configuration. I ended up regretting not buying that 3rd Powerwall. I obviously corrected that last year.

Do you have power outages regularly where you need A/C? If it was my decision branches goes as follows: If I can afford the 3rd PW I would go for it because the utility is quite high on having that extra battery. If I'm super tight on finance then I just learn what you have already learned and make the change *when* I need it assuming this is "disaster" situation and not the common case. If you need A/C *and* outages happen regularly *and* finances are limited then it is a tough situation. But running A/C with only two Powerwalls is pretty dodgy (from a run time perspective) anyway.

I don't have anything written from PG&E. My next step I think is try to contact the CPUC so see if I can figure something out from there. There is a part of me just going with "let sleeping dogs lie" because all the information I've been able to get is in my favor. I'm currently looking to add solar on a rental property to trigger a reset on that one.

I mainly use AC during PSPS shutoffs which happens quite often and for long durations where I live. I don't use AC after the sun goes down but my solar generates more than enough power to run the AC during the day.

 

[holeydonut]

As I said I've accepted their offer of a 3rd Powerwall as a compromise. But there was no mention of me having to get more insurance. If there are any additional costs over what they have proposed then I'm back to other alternatives.

Maybe you can convince Tesla to not submit for a new PTO for the 3rd battery? I mean, there's literally no real difference from a single Powerwall other than a monster amount of fees and headache from PG&E.

NEM2-MT totally sucks with its big up front fee and stupid insurance requirement. And for what; 5 kW of ESS that you aren't going to be exporting anyway?

 

[aesculus]

This is all very interesting and shows the evolution of the solutions and also Tesla's decisions. When I put my 2 PWs in two years ago there was no way they were going to start my heat pumps, even in AC mode. And there was no way Tesla was going to get in front of them to load shed them since they were over a hundred feet away through 2 building, concrete and two subpanels.

So the consensus was it was my responsibility to load shed them in any way I wanted to (turn off the thermostats being the easiest. And if I failed to do that the PWs would just trip off when the heat pumps tried to start and retry every 15 minutes or so. No big deal to them.

Since then I, like @arnolddeleon have replace the 4 ton with a high end variable speed unit and the 2 ton is scheduled for April. Now they might drain my PWs if I am not careful but at least they won't trip the PWs.

 

[RKCRLR]

This is all very interesting and shows the evolution of the solutions and also Tesla's decisions. When I put my 2 PWs in two years ago there was no way they were going to start my heat pumps, even in AC mode. And there was no way Tesla was going to get in front of them to load shed them since they were over a hundred feet away through 2 building, concrete and two subpanels.

So the consensus was it was my responsibility to load shed them in any way I wanted to (turn off the thermostats being the easiest. And if I failed to do that the PWs would just trip off when the heat pumps tried to start and retry every 15 minutes or so. No big deal to them.

Since then I, like @arnolddeleon have replace the 4 ton with a high end variable speed unit and the 2 ton is scheduled for April. Now they might drain my PWs if I am not careful but at least they won't trip the PWs.

Yes, I was a little surprised when they said they would void my warranty if I didn't allow them to load shed. But I do understand the concern. There was an incident where my wife and I were out of town during a PSPS. So my system would try to restart every 10 minutes, trip the Powerwalls again, and the cycle would repeat. I didn't know about this until the following day. I was out of cell service range and when I got back in range I had the PG&E PSPS notice and a bunch of error messages from my HVAC system (and no message from Tesla alerting me about the power outage). I can operate my thermostat remotely but I needed to hit the window where it was booted up but prior to it making the call for AC. I eventually got there. But I guess Tesla noticed all these cycles and are concerned it could damage the Powerwalls. I'm not happy about it either but they shouldn't tell me that I either I need to allow them to completely disable my AC during an outage or pay more money for them to fix it.

 

[BGbreeder]

If wishes were fishes...
@RKCRLR Sorry that you paid for and got a system that doesn't function as you wanted.

It seems to me that Powerwalls are all still bleeding edge technology, and not all aspects are understood prior to sale and installation. You appear to have drawn one of the "hmmm...that doesn't seem to work..." installs.

In an ideal world, with a company that has great customer service, the company would do whatever it took to make it right.

That is not the track record for Tesla. I saw in an article today that Elon personally hung up on the head of the NTSB during a call to resolve (I.e. Recall) the boom box issue. That doesn't sound like someone who is going to back down.

Tesla has made you a less than retail offer of a fix. Personally, I would take the offer and move on. The other paths seem to me to have serious potential for long term aggravations. But perhaps you are one who thrives on conflict and aggravation, and this will be entertaining for you...

All the best,

BG

 

[RKCRLR]

If wishes were fishes...
@RKCRLR Sorry that you paid for and got a system that doesn't function as you wanted.

It seems to me that Powerwalls are all still bleeding edge technology, and not all aspects are understood prior to sale and installation. You appear to have drawn one of the "hmmm...that doesn't seem to work..." installs.

In an ideal world, with a company that has great customer service, the company would do whatever it took to make it right.

That is not the track record for Tesla. I saw in an article today that Elon personally hung up on the head of the NTSB during a call to resolve (I.e. Recall) the boom box issue. That doesn't sound like someone who is going to back down.

Tesla has made you a less than retail offer of a fix. Personally, I would take the offer and move on. The other paths seem to me to have serious potential for long term aggravations. But perhaps you are one who thrives on conflict and aggravation, and this will be entertaining for you...

All the best,

BG

As I mentioned I have accepted Tesla's offer. As long as they follow through on their end and don't increase the price over what they have already stated or do something that requires me to pay additional monthly/annual fees I'm good.

 

[aesculus]

But I guess Tesla noticed all these cycles and are concerned it could damage the Powerwalls.

Clearly they have changed their tune over the last few years. When I installed they said it would just trip and it would not cause any damage. Maybe now they have seen evidence that over time it does cause damage. Or perhaps someone else who has no direct knowledge or experience just changed the rules. Either way it's BAU with Tesla and you we are at their mercy.

 

[RKCRLR]

Clearly they have changed their tune over the last few years. When I installed they said it would just trip and it would not cause any damage. Maybe now they have seen evidence that over time it does cause damage. Or perhaps someone else who has no direct knowledge or experience just changed the rules. Either way it's BAU with Tesla and you are at their mercy.

Yes, I was really surprised that doing nothing isn't an option. Not optimum but some AC is better than no AC.

What really frustrates me is they refuse to use the terminals on my HVAC unit specifically designed for lead shedding and instead want to splice into the thermostat wiring. Knowing my system I'm convinced that will just cause problems.

 

[aesculus]

Yes, I was really surprised that doing nothing isn't an option. Not optimum but some AC is better than no AC.

What really frustrates me is they refuse to use the terminals on my HVAC unit specifically designed for lead shedding and instead want to splice into the thermostat wiring. Knowing my system I'm convinced that will just cause problems.

Well, like every business these days, people are not only NOT rewarded for solving problems, they are actually penalized for doing something that is 'not in the book', even if it's better. This is supposed to be better for companies bottom lines but IMHO, it's not. I had a Tesla Solar Roof installed after my PWs were installed and if a Tesla employee had not acted on his own, along with a couple of rouge engineers, I suspect I would have ended up with a system that did not work properly.

Now that I am off my soap box I think it will work OK, just not as good as the solution you could have. They are basically just going to set your thermostat to OFF if I read it right. I have seen lots of commercial solutions that do just that. Before I bought the 'variable speed heat pump pill', I was going down the same path as you. And Tesla probably would have come after me if my system failed since I would have had to add on to what they installed.