Looking to join the Tesla community and have a few questions

[Troy]

OK, let's have a closer look at this Model S P85D: 85 kWh Performance Model S 5YJSA1H22FFP63813 | Tesla

Here is what you should know that is not obvious on that page:

• Even though the page says 253 miles EPA rated range, that's for a Model S P85D with 19" wheels. This car has 21" wheels and the test score was 242 miles EPA rated range. See the screenshot here from Tesla.com at the time. The car will still display 253 mi because EPA rules don't require displaying different range numbers for configurations that don't exceed 33% of that version. However, that doesn't change the fact that the car has less range with 21" wheels.
• However, 242 miles is for a new Model S P85D. This is a used car with 40K miles. At this mileage, Model S cars have 95% capacity left on average. See the chart here. That means you are now down to 242*0.95= 230 miles.
• However, that's the range you get at 68 mph speed. If you look at the table above, at 75 mph you get 216 miles when the car is new and 216*0.95= 205 miles at 95% capacity.
• However, that's the range in Summer. Winter range will be 20% less. Search for 'Tesla winter range' to find out more. Now you are down to 205*0.8= 164 miles at a full charge.

This is not an issue for day to day driving but you might experience problems during long distance trips. For example, Supercharging the 85 kWh battery from 93% to 100% takes 20 minutes. See the video here. The reason is the tapering curve. Search for 'Supercharging tapering curve' to find out more. Therefore, you want to avoid Supercharging to 100% if you don't have to. However, it will be difficult to avoid this in a P85D compared to a Model 3 P because the P85D has much less range.

In addition, it will be difficult to skip busy superchargers. The solution is to slow down to reach your destination. The car will actually display a warning. It will say, "slow down to 60/65 mph to reach your destination." See the image in the opening message here. This is ironic because you have to drive slower in a high-Performance car compared to the non-Performance version of the same model (Model S 85D).

You might think that the battery has 8 years warranty, therefore you don't have to worry about degradation. That's not correct. The 8 years warranty is only for complete failure. It doesn't cover degradation in any shape or form. In fact, if you read the warranty document, it specifically says that degradation is not covered.

The good news is, degradation slows down after 40K miles. Between 40-80K miles, it should drop from 95% to 94% battery capacity on average. The bad news is, the specific CPO you buy might have 93% or 92% at 40K miles depending on how well it was looked after by the previous owner. It will be difficult for you to find out this information before you purchase a CPO. You could buy a 90 kWh pack for more range but there are heavy degradation issues with 90 packs.

Another important detail is that the battery capacity of Model S 85 and 90 kWh versions is over-advertised. The 85 kWh S/X pack actually has 77.5 kWh usable capacity, less than a Model 3 Long Range which has 78.2 kWh usable capacity and is a lot more efficient. Generally speaking, it would be a smart decision for P85D owners to switch to a Model 3 P, especially considering that all P85Ds have AP1.0 and the plastic nosecone.

 

[EV-CPO]

OK, let's have a closer look at this Model S P85D: 85 kWh Performance Model S 5YJSA1H22FFP63813 | Tesla

Here is what you should know that is not obvious on that page:

• Even though the page says 253 miles EPA rated range, that's for a Model S P85D with 19" wheels. This car has 21" wheels and the test score was 242 miles EPA rated range. See the screenshot here from Tesla.com at the time.
• However, 242 miles is for a new Model S P85D. This is a used car with 40K miles. At this mileage, Model S cars have 95% capacity left on average. See the chart here. That means you are now down to 242*0.95= 230 miles.
• However, that's the range you get at 68 mph speed. If you look at the table above, at 75 mph you get 216 miles when the car is new and 216*0.95= 205 miles.
• However, that's the range in summer. Winter range will be 20% less. Now you are down to 205*0.8= 164 miles at a full charge. This is not an issue for day to day driving but you might experience problems during long distance trips. For example, Supercharging the 85 kWh battery from 93% to 100% takes 20 minutes. See the video here. The reason is the tapering curve. Search for 'Supercharging tapering curve' to find out more. Therefore, you want to avoid Supercharging to 100% if you don't have to. However, it will be difficult to avoid this in a P85D compared to a Model 3 P because the P85D has much less range. In addition, it will be difficult to skip busy superchargers.

You might think that the battery has 8 years warranty, therefore you don't have to worry about degradation. That's not correct. The 8 years warranty is only for complete failure. It doesn't cover degradation in any shape or form. In fact, if you read the warranty document, it specifically says that degradation is not covered.

The good news is, degradation slows down after 40K miles. Between 40-80K miles, it should drop from 95% to 94% battery capacity on average. The bad news is, the specific CPO you buy, might have 93% or 92% at 40K miles depending on how well it was looked after by the previous owner. You could buy a 90 kWh pack for more range but there are heavy degradation issues with 90 packs.

Another important detail that the battery capacity of Model S 85 and 90 kWh versions is over-advertised. The 85 kWh S/X pack actually has 77.5 kWh usable capacity, less than a Model 3 Long Range which has 78.2 kWh usable capacity and is a lot more efficient. Generally speaking, it would be a smart decision for P85D owners to switch to a Model 3 P.

@EYSA, please ignore the FUD in these post. They are all clearly biased strongly against Model S in any fashion and does not represent reality in any way whatsoever. I've driven my P85D over 40,000 miles and my P85+ over 30,000 miles and pretty much none of what is posted above represents actual use of a Model S P85D. Clearly the poster has a agenda to continually crap all over anything that's not a Model 3. So please take it with the poster's intent.

 

[RAW84]

I honestly don't see why so many people think the 3 compares favorably to the S. I rented a long range performance 3 on Turo while I was out of town. I requested my model 3 reservation refund as soon as I got home. It's a good car for the market it serves, but it can't replace the S for me.

 

[EV-CPO]

However, 242 miles is for a new Model S P85D. This is a used car with 40K miles. At this mileage, Model S cars have 95% capacity left on average. See the chart here. That means you are now down to 242*0.95= 230 miles.

Inaccurate/wrong. My 2014 P85D with 44,000 miles routinely charges to well over 240 miles @100% rated range as do most ACTUAL P85D OWNERS.

However, that's the range you get at 68 mph speed. If you look at the table above, at 75 mph you get 216 miles when the car is new and 216*0.95= 205 miles.

Also woefully inaccurate. Also irrelevant. Even if true, 205 miles is more than enough to get between any two superchargers on a road trip. And the OP already said they would take their ICE on road trips anyway.

However, that's the range in summer. Winter range will be 20% less. Now you are down to 205*0.8= 164 miles at a full charge.

Woah there, this is totally inaccurate. And you keep stacking these reductions. There are so many OTHER factors that go into winter driving, you can just say 20% less on top of all the others. The OP is in SoCal, so how bad is "winter" driving there? The range doesn't really start to go down enough to matter until the temps are in the 30s or 40s. How often does that happen in SoCal? And the OP already said they would take their ICE on road trips anyway.

For example, Supercharging the 85 kWh battery from 93% to 100% takes 20 minutes.

Irrelevant. I've had to charge to 100% only twice on long road trips and that was back in 2014 when there were very few superchargers and the distance between Savannah Airport SC and St. Augustine, FL was 171 miles and I wanted a little extra buffer. I made it there with plenty of charge left over and really didn't need to charge to 100% at all. 90% probably would have been plenty. Also, I stopped for lunch so the car was already at 100% before I was done with lunch. It's very easy to plan longer charging stops like that on long trips. Just more FUD here, really, oh and did I mention the OP already said they would take their ICE on road trips anyway.

Therefore, you want to avoid Supercharging to 100% if you don't have to.

No, you don't have to avoid it if you want or need it. It takes every Tesla more time to charge to 100%. No Tesla is immune to taper (except the 60kWh cars with 75kWh batteries).

Also, how often do you think the OP is going to be supercharging for a car that will mostly be driven around town for daily activities and charging every night at home?

However, it will be difficult to avoid this in a P85D compared to a Model 3 P because the P85D has much less range.

Again, so what? What do you have so against the Model S? What are you trying to prove? The OP already stated his preferences and requirements and that is clearly a Model S. Why are you thread-crapping here?

In addition, it will be difficult to skip busy superchargers.

Maybe in a few areas in California, but on the mythical 'road trip' the OP will be taking in his ICE, I don't think that will be a problem.

You might think that the battery has 8 years warranty, therefore you don't have to worry about degradation. That's not correct. The 8 years warranty is only for complete failure. It doesn't cover degradation in any shape or form. In fact, if you read the warranty document, it specifically says that degradation is not covered.

Again, so what? The only difference with the Model 3 (which you conveniently leave out) is the Model 3 has a 70% degradation warranty. Which no Tesla battery -- S/X or 3 -- will likely ever see inside of 8 years unless it was severely abused. More FUD.

The bad news is, the specific CPO you buy, might have 93% or 92% at 40K miles depending on how well it was looked after by the previous owner. Yo

More hyperbole, please.

Another important detail is that the battery capacity of Model S 85 and 90 kWh versions is over-advertised. The 85 kWh S/X pack actually has 77.5 kWh usable capacity, less than a Model 3 Long Range which has 78.2 kWh usable capacity and is a lot more efficient.

Why include this? It doesn't matter. What matters is the real-life range available to the car, which I've already covered. You're just trying to confuse the OP with irrelevant information.

Generally speaking, it would be a smart decision for P85D owners to switch to a Model 3 P, especially if it's an older version with AP1.0 and the plastic nosecone.

This is entirely your OPINION, and not "generally speaking". What might be a "smart decision" for you is not a "smart decision" for everyone else. I for one would NEVER switch from a P85D to a Model 3. The P85D has so much more to offer me than the Model 3 ever will (yes, that's my opinion, and I'm willing to admit that).

I see @RAW84 beat me to it.

 

[L-P-G]

OK, let's have a closer look at this Model S P85D: 85 kWh Performance Model S 5YJSA1H22FFP63813 | Tesla

Here is what you should know that is not obvious on that page:

• Even though the page says 253 miles EPA rated range, that's for a Model S P85D with 19" wheels. This car has 21" wheels and the test score was 242 miles EPA rated range. See the screenshot here from Tesla.com at the time.
• However, 242 miles is for a new Model S P85D. This is a used car with 40K miles. At this mileage, Model S cars have 95% capacity left on average. See the chart here. That means you are now down to 242*0.95= 230 miles.
• However, that's the range you get at 68 mph speed. If you look at the table above, at 75 mph you get 216 miles when the car is new and 216*0.95= 205 miles at 95% capacity.
• However, that's the range in Summer. Winter range will be 20% less. Search for 'Tesla winter range' to find out more. Now you are down to 205*0.8= 164 miles at a full charge.

This is not an issue for day to day driving but you might experience problems during long distance trips. For example, Supercharging the 85 kWh battery from 93% to 100% takes 20 minutes. See the video here. The reason is the tapering curve. Search for 'Supercharging tapering curve' to find out more. Therefore, you want to avoid Supercharging to 100% if you don't have to. However, it will be difficult to avoid this in a P85D compared to a Model 3 P because the P85D has much less range.

In addition, it will be difficult to skip busy superchargers. The solution is to slow down to reach your destination. The car will actually display a warning. It will say, "slow down to 60/65 mph to reach your destination." See the image in the opening message here. This is ironic because you have to drive slower in a high-Performance car compared to the non-Performance version of the same model (Model S 85D).

You might think that the battery has 8 years warranty, therefore you don't have to worry about degradation. That's not correct. The 8 years warranty is only for complete failure. It doesn't cover degradation in any shape or form. In fact, if you read the warranty document, it specifically says that degradation is not covered.

The good news is, degradation slows down after 40K miles. Between 40-80K miles, it should drop from 95% to 94% battery capacity on average. The bad news is, the specific CPO you buy might have 93% or 92% at 40K miles depending on how well it was looked after by the previous owner. It will be difficult for you to find out this information before you purchase a CPO. You could buy a 90 kWh pack for more range but there are heavy degradation issues with 90 packs.

Another important detail is that the battery capacity of Model S 85 and 90 kWh versions is over-advertised. The 85 kWh S/X pack actually has 77.5 kWh usable capacity, less than a Model 3 Long Range which has 78.2 kWh usable capacity and is a lot more efficient. Generally speaking, it would be a smart decision for P85D owners to switch to a Model 3 P, especially considering that all P85Ds have AP1.0 and the plastic nosecone.

Dude we get it, you run a Blog and a YouTube channel so you're trying to convince as many people as possible to buy a M3 to then tell them to use your referral. BUT this is getting annoying, you're throwing around inaccurate statements and OP already stated that a must have option is Pano so that completely rules out the M3 regardless of anything else.

 

[BulldogsRus]

Some people think because the Model S is more expensive, it must be more premium but that's not the reason. The main reason the Model S costs more is that it requires more labor because the production line is less automated. The Fremont factory -previously known as the Nummi factory- produced 429K cars in 2006 with 5,500 employees when it was owned by Toyota & GM. That's 78 cars per employee per year. In Aug 2016, Tesla was at 2,000/week (100K/year) Model S&X with 4,500 employees. That's 22 cars per employee per year, only 28% as efficient as Toyota.

For Model 3, Tesla added 5,000 employees and achieved 5,000/week (250K/year) which is 50 cars per employee per year (64% as efficient as Toyota). Model 3 production is twice as efficient as Model S/X. That's the main reason why S/X is more expensive. It has nothing to do with Model S being more premium. Tesla is planning to reach 7,000/week Model 3s with efficiency improvements. If they achieve that, they would reach 70 cars per employee per year and 3 times the efficiency as S/X production. As far as I know, there are currently no plans to upgrade the Model S/X production lines.

Sure....if they hate having twice as much storage space, an actual working sunroof, larger display, faster 0-60, a secondary dash display, auto presenting doors, non-freezing windows, a power liftgate, power seats with driver memory, standard 19" wheels and free unlimited supercharging.

But yeah, beyond all that the Model 3 is more "premium" I guess.

 

[Troy]

@L-P-G you are confusing me with somebody else. I don't have a youtube channel and I'm not promoting a referral code. I'm not a Model 3 fanboy either. I'm just trying to clarify misconceptions with data. I was critical about many Model 3 related subjects too. For example,

• Tesla advertises 260 mi for Model 3 Mid-Range but they should have advertised 251 mi instead. I wrote about it here.
• Another example is, both the Model 3 Performance version and the Model 3 LR are advertised to have 310 miles range but the actual EPA test score for Model 3 Performance was lower than LR. See the article here that's based on my research.
• Also, the Model 3 design studio shows prices after potential gas savings. That's misleading. I wrote about it here.

I provided many data sources in my messages above, including screenshots from the Tesla website. For example, Tesla.com used to show 242 mi for Model S P85D with 21" wheels and 250 mi with 19" wheels. See the image here. How is that misleading? It comes directly from Tesla themselves. Here is another screenshot from the Tesla website that shows 10-15% less range with larger wheels. Tesla used to display that on their website but they decided to remove it because of marketing reasons.

 

[EV-CPO]

I'm just trying to clarify misconceptions with data.

Yes, inaccurate, misleading, and disingenuous data.

 

[BulldogsRus]

Yes, inaccurate, misleading, and disingenuous data.

Can we start with this:
It has nothing to do with Model S being more premium.

 

[brkaus]

I'll just add the S and the 3 are very different cars. We have had the S since March 2017 and just added the 3 in November.

Both the cars are great. Both are different. People are allowed to have a preference between the two cars.

I recently had a leaf driver I met on a tesla email list stop by to evaluate the two cars. He was up in the air. Drove both back to back over a period of 90 minutes and he decided to go with a used S.

A friend of mine did similar and they purchased a 3.

 

[shiftkenny]

I'll just add the S and the 3 are very different cars. We have had the S since March 2017 and just added the 3 in November.

Both the cars are great. Both are different. People are allowed to have a preference between the two cars.

I recently had a leaf driver I met on a tesla email list stop by to evaluate the two cars. He was up in the air. Drove both back to back over a period of 90 minutes and he decided to go with a used S.

A friend of mine did similar and they purchased a 3.

I'm exactly in the same boat. I'm about to pull a trigger on a CPO MS85. Everyday I was wondering I'm missing out on the tax credit and the newer car but personally I'd rather get the little bigger car and the extra features like presenting handles and such. I also cant afford the EAP if I get the model 3 as its outside my price range. Adding EAP will put it outside the monthly I'm looking for. After readying everyone talk about AP1 I'll be perfectly happy with it. My Honda CRV has TACC but it's so sloppy. So I'm excited to get my Tesla with aP1 as it's so refined.. so I heard.

OP I suggest go to a used car dealership try a Used S around the same performance your looking at. Then go to the mall and drive a 3. Then you can see the differance. Try them back to back so the drives are fresh in your mind. Good luck and merry Christmas

 

[Chancellor32]

@L-P-G you are confusing me with somebody else. I don't have a youtube channel and I'm not promoting a referral code. I'm not a Model 3 fanboy either. I'm just trying to clarify misconceptions with data. I was critical about many Model 3 related subjects too. For example,

• Tesla advertises 260 mi for Model 3 Mid-Range but they should have advertised 251 mi instead. I wrote about it here.
• Another example is, both the Model 3 Performance version and the Model 3 LR are advertised to have 310 miles range but the actual EPA test score for Model 3 Performance was lower than LR. See the article here that's based on my research.
• Also, the Model 3 design studio shows prices after potential gas savings. That's misleading. I wrote about it here.

I provided many data sources in my messages above, including screenshots from the Tesla website. For example, Tesla.com used to show 242 mi for Model S P85D with 21" wheels and 250 mi with 19" wheels. See the image here. How is that misleading? It comes directly from Tesla themselves. Here is another screenshot from the Tesla website that shows 10-15% less range with larger wheels. Tesla used to display that on their website but they decided to remove it because of marketing reasons.

Do you even own a Tesla? Your first statement was so terribly inaccurate that the Model S is not more premium than the M3 that everything you said after that was just a waste of breath. The S is the flagship vehicle aka the most premium and best option. Elon said this himself. Is the 3 amazing? Yes but there are tons of people including myself that prefer the S over the 3 for 100's of reasons.

 

[Bill Price]

While Troy is obviously biased for some reason, he has some valid points and some "not so valid points." EPA rated range is not what you will experience? It's winter here in Indianapolis, however, temps were in the upper 40's yesterday when I drove to Louisville to see my daughter and granddaughters. I started at the supercharger on the south side of Indy where I charged to 314 indicated miles. I didn't think it prudent to wait another 10 minutes or so to get that LAST mile of rated 315 for my model S. According to mapquest, the route I took was 130 miles one way. I drove 75 mph down and 76 mph back. I drove 76 because there was a car pacing me and we kept passing each other back and forth so I just raised it 1 mph to get ahead of him and not impede traffic trying to get around us as we passed each other very slowly. Driving at these speeds is not the speed that the EPA rates their mileage. Long story short is that while down there I had two spirited acceleration displays for the uninitiated and still had 41 miles of range left when I pulled into my garage. EPA rated range? 315.......my experience at higher speeds? 301 Pretty close? I would think a SP85D would deliver similar results with it's rated range as well. Just my $0.02 worth. FWIW YMMV.

 

[N..8]

I think some of you trying to beat up on Troy about facts need to show your facts. I don't own a M3 so but I'm also open for discussion about these types of things and see that Troy is showing where he is getting his info from. Troy has combined a bunch of different items into one thread and all though hard to swallow a lot of what he said is true as a whole but might not be true for one specific person.

 

[demundus]

FYI, you wont get HOV stickers with any CPO you buy unless you get it from out of state. Any Model S previously registered within the state of California and had stickers issued (complete outlier if you can find a cali car without stickers...) is not eligible for stickers again.

So, in about 13 more days the white stickers go bye-bye, and the red stickers remain. I posted this somewhere else, but the only way to get a model S with red stickers is:

Buy a new model S, or model 3 within CA and register it
Buy a used model S or model 3 outside CA and bring it to CA and register it (a 2012 model S from Arizona or Florida, etc is eligible for red stickers)

 

[Bill Price]

Troy? Why are you so defensive? You obviously have a problem when people don't agree with you. Let's get back on topic instead of running your ego up the flagpole for all to see. The man asked for information on what Tesla to buy to satisfy his requirements. You gave your biased opinion. I don't have a problem with that. Let it go.

 

[BulldogsRus]

I speak with data and links to data sources. I provided a range table that shows the range of all Tesla cars at different speeds. OP had concerns about cabin space and I provided detailed numbers for both the Model S and Model 3 with links to Tesla.com for both cars. If people think the vehicle specs about headroom, legroom, vehicle width etc shown on Tesla.com are misleading information, that shows the illogicality of their arguments. OP had a question about Autopilot and I explained the topic in detail a few messages above.

If people think the current Model S 100D is more premium than Model 3 LRD, that's their opinion. We don't need to have a discussion about that. If they think the 2014 P85D is more premium than a current Model 3, that's controversial because then you have to look at EPA range test scores, Autopilot hardware change from AP1.0 to 2.5, Supercharge speed, infotainment computer upgrade in March 2018, future upgradeability to AP3.0 and future support of Supercharger V3 etc. and I provided data and links about these details.

Then by that same token a 2016 Model X Signature with heated/cooled seats (N/A in the 3 LRD), heated wheel (N/A in the 3 LRD), auto-presenting doors (N/A in the 3 LRD) and Ludicrous mode (N/A in the 3 LRD) is "less premium". Supercharger V3 is avail. to ALL vehicles, not just the 3 LRD per Elon:
Starts at 40:40

Secondly, AP beyond 1.0 has been hit/miss at best and many are sticking w/1.0 at this point. Anything beyond that will be decided by the govt.regulators, not just Tesla.

 

[shiftkenny]

I think we should get back on topic lol

 

[Troy]

Supercharger V3 is avail. to ALL vehicles, not just the 3 LRD per Elon:

Correct. All new Teslas will support Supercharger V3 when it's released. For example, if they release it in April 2019, all Model S and X cars manufactured after that will support Supercharger V3. However, older Model S/X cars will continue to Supercharge at current rates when they use Supercharger V3 stalls. This is similar to how version A battery packs are limited to 90 kW even though other Teslas can Supercharge at 120 kW at the same stations.

The question is, will Model 3s manufactured between July 2017 and Apr 2019 support Supercharger V3 when it's released in April 2019? Will these cars start to Supercharge at 180 kW instead of 120 kW when plugged into a Supercharger V3 stall? I think there is a good chance that will be the case because page 9 of this EPA document says that the Model 3 supports 525 Amp Supercharging. The Model 3 battery is 350 Volt. 525 Amp at 350 Volt equals to 525*350= 183,750 Watts= 184 kW. This would mean 50% increase in power. In other words, a Supercharge session that takes 30 minutes, would take 20 minutes instead. My guess is, the Model S/X will switch to a new battery pack design with more powerful cooling. This would enable Supercharger V3 support as well as Track Mode. See the article here about battery cooling. Current Superchargers are limited to 330 Amp. You can see 330A next to 'Output Current' here.

Secondly, AP beyond 1.0 has been hit/miss at best and many are sticking w/1.0 at this point. Anything beyond that will be decided by the govt.regulators, not just Tesla.

That was the case until Tesla released Navigate on Autopilot recently with V9. The improved version of Navigate on Autopilot won't require lane change confirmation. These are not software updates pending regulatory approval. I think most people would agree that AP2.0 and 2.5 have exceeded AP1.0 after software V9.0.

 

[Tic-tac-toe]

I honestly don't see why so many people think the 3 compares favorably to the S. I rented a long range performance 3 on Turo while I was out of town. I requested my model 3 reservation refund as soon as I got home. It's a good car for the market it serves, but it can't replace the S for me.

Agree. They are completely different cars and serve different needs. When we were looking to buy a car this Fall, we didn’t consider the model 3 at all because our kid didn’t like the back seats when he sat in it in the showroom.

We ended up with the MSP100D which we chose over our other finalist, the Porsche Panamera Turbo.