Looking to join the Tesla community and have a few questions

[EV-CPO]

I speak with data and links to data sources.

Sometimes it's not about "data" and "links". If you just supplied the data and links without biased commentary, that's one thing. But you took every single opportunity to disparage practically EVERYTHING about Model S and then take huge liberties with the "truth" about Model 3. There's presenting unbiased data and analyses, and then there's what you do.

If people think the vehicle specs about headroom, legroom, vehicle width etc shown on Tesla.com are misleading information, that shows the illogicality of their arguments.

Again, it's not just about cherry-picking certain numbers to support your bias towards Model 3. What do you have to prove? What's your agenda? The OP already ruled out Model 3. So why are you even still here crapping on Model S?

OP had a question about Autopilot and I explained the topic in detail a few messages above.

No, you did not. You posted your extremely biased opinion on the versions of AP with very few actual "facts".

If people think the current Model S 100D is more premium than Model 3 LRD, that's their opinion. We don't need to have a discussion about that. If they think the 2014 P85D is more premium than a current Model 3, that's controversial because then you have to look at EPA range test scores, battery degradation, Autopilot hardware change from AP1.0 to 2.5, Supercharge speed, infotainment computer upgrade in March 2018, future upgradeability to AP3.0 and future support of Supercharger V3, Limp Mode vs Track Mode etc.

It depends on what people define as "Premium". In terms of the automobile marketplace, what's "Premium" in the P100D is almost identical to what's "Premium" in the P85D. Most of the things you are including as "Premium" are just feature enhancements. You also can't logically compare a four year old car to a car being produced today. Let's take your beloved Model 3 LRD and compare it to what Tesla is producing in 2022, and I'll bet you change your tune. The four year old P85D offers blistering performance, space and comfort the NEW Model 3 will never offer.

Also in terms of taking the tax credits for a new Model 3... personally I'd much rather buy the flagship Premium P85D now at more than a 50% deprecation for $55k (MSRP $131,000) then get a measly $10k off a new Model 3 and than also take the new car depreciation hit right away.

That was the case until Tesla released Navigate on Autopilot recently with V9.

NoA does what exactly? Suggest lane changes and drives you off the exit ramp? Wow.

The improved version of Navigate on Autopilot won't require lane change confirmation.

Still vaporware.

Remember Elon Musk said in 2016 that AP2.0 was going to drive coast-to-coast on FSD in 2017. Yeah, still waiting to see that. Oh right, we'll need to upgrade to AP3.0 long before FSD is a reality (regulatory hurdles aside).

These are not software updates pending regulatory approval. I think most people would agree that AP2.0 and 2.5 have exceeded 1.0 after V9.0.

Yeah, no. The only real thing that AP2 does NOW over AP1 is suggest lane changes you have to initiate yourself and turns the car off the exit ramp before handing control back to the driver.. so that's what, about 10 additional seconds of driver assistance? Sign me up.

 

[EV-CPO]

Do you own a tesla???

He doesn't have to. He has "data" and "links".

If you look at his page here: Tesla Range Table - Teslike.com you can read the footnotes where you can see how he makes up data, creates formulas, and extrapolates the entire range table based on a very small number of data points from Consumer Reports. That's it.

And surely none of that is biased at all... no sirree.

 

[Chancellor32]

He doesn't have to. He has "data" and "links".

If you look at his page here: Tesla Range Table - Teslike.com you can read the footnotes where you can see how he makes up data, creates formulas, and extrapolates the entire range table based on a very small number of data points from Consumer Reports. That's it.

And surely none of that is biased at all... no sirree.

I think its important to know if someone actually has a Tesla vs the normal FUD that is spread on here by haters. Maybe this guy owns a M3 but regardless his data might be accurate but his bias contaminates it. the OP should just completely ignore him. lol Love your site BTW!! It helped me find my CPO and it will help me find me next one lol.

 

[N..8]

If his facts are wrong can someone counter them besides just saying he doesn't own a Tesla. I really am interested in knowing if his facts are wrong and how so.

 

[EV-CPO]

If his facts are wrong can someone counter them besides just saying he doesn't own a Tesla. I really am interested in knowing if his facts are wrong and how so.

I would but I just don't have time to re-do all his hand waving calculations and validate all the data sources. If he presented his facts without biased commentary or an agenda, then they might be more believable. But since he did, I don't have time to waste on disproving a clearly biased analysis. If you look at the link I posted above, there's quite a bit of "we have data X and Y, therefore we can extrapolate Z using this formula I just made up." And then he presents the range table with all the made up data extrapolations as "facts".

edit: Given time, I'm 100% sure I could come up with my own formulas and extrapolations and generate completely different and conflicting results. Science!

 

[BulldogsRus]

If his facts are wrong can someone counter them besides just saying he doesn't own a Tesla. I really am interested in knowing if his facts are wrong and how so.

Well, if you are referring to his "Model S isn't more premium" quote, I listed multiple points to counter that claim. But then again, maybe their idea of 'premium' is different than mine. Range is a gray area simply because many factors can affect it, like cold (read all of the thread complaining about this on the Model 3 forum), and AP2 and beyond have been overpromised for awhile now as to what can be expected, and the reality is that some people don't even use it all that much so it depends on your expectations tbh.

 

[Chancellor32]

If his facts are wrong can someone counter them besides just saying he doesn't own a Tesla. I really am interested in knowing if his facts are wrong and how so.

What facts do you want to be proven? He threw out like 300 different statements lol. It matters if someone is an owner or not because there are so many haters out here who just believe everything they read online. Is the S more premium? 1000% it is, is the range better in the 3? Yes of course it is. Is the 3 battery better? Probably but the S battery has been around for awhile now. Will only the 3 be able to use V3 superchargers? Only tesla knows that, anyone else is just speculating. Bottom line, they are two vastly different cars and arent meant to be compared. Its like comparing a BMW 3 series and the 7 series.

 

[demundus]

If his facts are wrong can someone counter them besides just saying he doesn't own a Tesla. I really am interested in knowing if his facts are wrong and how so.

Just cause its in a spreadsheet doesn't mean its right.

 

[Troy]

The Range Table I created is based on EPA data. The first column shows EPA highway dyno test scores. These numbers are available in EPA documents. For example, the Model S P85D 21" scored 346 miles. The data source is page 6 of this EPA document. The reason this number is high is that the highway dyno tests are performed at 48 mph average speed. Therefore it's high for all cars tested. I calculated what the range would be at 65/70/75 mph etc but if you want to compare one Tesla to another, you can use the highway dyno scores directly. An article about this range table was published on insideEVs. See link #1 below.

You might say, how do you know all these details about EPA tests? Well, I'm a Tesla fanatic and this happens to be a special interest topic of mine. You might have read somewhere that the Model 3 LR scored 334 mi EPA rated range but Tesla voluntarily lowered it to 310 miles. That was based on my research. It was first published on Teslarati with links to my forum messages. See link #2 below. A month later, EPA released a document confirming 334 miles.

Link #3 is an article about Model 3 LR AWD and Performance EPA range and #4 is about how wheel size affects range. Again these are based on my research. In addition, I'm the author of the Teslike Order Tracker, a Model 3 survey with data from thousands of buyers. Links 5 and 6 below are related to this. If you are an investor, see my forum message here which was very popular recently. Also, I'm fighting Tesla trolls on Twitter. You can follow me at @TroyTeslike. You can do a Google news search for 'Troy Teslike' for more articles. Hopefully, this shows that I'm not trolling people by making up numbers.

I disagree with Tesla underselling the Model 3 and presenting the Model S as the more premium option even though lots of things in the Model 3 are next-gen and not available in current Model S yet (2170 cells, Track Mode, digitally controlled air vents, Supercharger V3 support, permanent magnet motors, more powerful battery cooling, better audio quality). 8 months after they started making the Model 3, they upgraded the S/X infotainment computer to Model 3 specs (July 2017 vs March 2018). The Roadster 2020 prototype has Model 3 style air vents suggesting that Model S will eventually get them too. I think a few of these changes will find their way to S/X in the first half of 2019.

1. https://insideevs.com/estimate-tesla-range-highway-speeds/'
2. https://teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-epa-rating-334-miles-long-range
3. https://electrek.co/2018/07/24/tesla-model3-epa-ratings-advertise
4. https://electrek.co/2017/11/10/tesla-model-s-model-x-wheel-size-affect-efficency
5. https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/31/solid-source-51821-tesla-model-3-production-estimate-for-q3
6. https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/23/tesla-model-3-average-selling-price-asp-59300-surveys-find

 

[EV-CPO]

The Range Table I created is based on EPA data. The first column shows EPA highway dyno test scores. These numbers are available in EPA documents. For example, the Model S P85D 21" scored 346 miles. The data source is page 6 of this EPA document. The reason this number is high is that the highway dyno tests are performed at 48 mph average speed. Therefore it's high for all cars tested. I calculated what the range would be at 65/70/75 mph etc but if you want to compare one Tesla to another, you can use the highway dyno scores directly. An article about this range table was published on insideEVs. See link #1 below.

You might say, how do you know all these details about EPA test scores? I'm a Tesla fanatic and this is a special interest topic of mine. You might have read somewhere that the Model 3 LR scored 334 mi EPA rated range but Tesla voluntarily lowered it to 310 miles. That was based on my research. That news was first published on Teslarati with links to my forum messages. See link #2 below. A month later, EPA released a document confirming 334 miles.

Link #3 is an article about Model 3 LR AWD and Performance EPA range based on my research. Number 4 is about how wheel size affects range, again based on my research. In addition, I'm the author of the Teslike Order Tracker, the biggest Model 3 survey with data from thousands of Model 3 buyers. Links 5 and 6 below are related to this survey. Also, if you are an investor, see my forum message here. This message happens to be the most informative message in this forum in the last 30 days. Also, I'm fighting Tesla trolls on Twitter. You can follow me here: @TroyTeslike. You can do a Google news search for 'Troy Teslike' for more articles. Hopefully, this shows that I'm not trolling people by making up numbers.

1. https://insideevs.com/estimate-tesla-range-highway-speeds/'
2. https://teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-epa-rating-334-miles-long-range
3. https://electrek.co/2018/07/24/tesla-model3-epa-ratings-advertise
4. https://electrek.co/2017/11/10/tesla-model-s-model-x-wheel-size-affect-efficency
5. https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/31/solid-source-51821-tesla-model-3-production-estimate-for-q3
6. https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/23/tesla-model-3-average-selling-price-asp-59300-surveys-find

Great. So why can't you just stick to real numbers and facts without all the propaganda, hyperbole, FUD, and crapping all over Model S at any chance? Especially when the OP specifically said that he is only looking at Model S.

If you had just kept with actual facts without the extremely biased (and irrelevant) commentary, I think people would have been more open to your contributions. But that's the thing with credibility, you totally lost it with the crap posts.. and once lost, you can't just get that back.

 

[EYSA]

The P90D has a range of 265 miles.
The S90D has a range of 294 miles.

The P version is the performance version. It is quicker and has the lower range and costs a lot more.

Thats where it gets confusing. I would assume what you're saying is correct but the specs provided on Tesla.com suggest otherwise. The specs on both 90D(not the P) I provided link to show one with 294 range and 4.2 sec 0-60 while the other one has a range of 265 miles and 5.4 sec 0-60. So how is it the one that's faster also has more range? Unless its a misprint but when speaking to a Tesla rep he assured me the specs are accurate.

I honestly believe I will end up with a 15 or 16 Model S 85 or P85. I'll be looking at private sellers as well as the Tesla site and hopefully find a clean one in my price range.

 

[bomquito]

Wow. This is a really interesting read. Hands down I agree with @EV-CPO where I would pick the P85D over the long range model 3 to own and drive any time, at least for the time being. I personally own both vehicles and here are my reasons:
1. The S just looks so much better in person. Data and Specs can't justify this fact.
2. Free unlimited supercharging beats range anytime. I don't drive over 200 miles a day hence considering an extra 50 miles I get for the model 3 in range and maybe extra 5-10 min to fully charge, I still prefer taking my S to a supercharger instead of the 3.
3. Performance is key. The feeling of being able to beat any cars on the street from a stop light going 0-60 is priceless.

 

[Superman910]

@EV-CPO or anyone really? What are the thoughts on the 90D? I have read the claims of battery degradation being much more of an issue, but I thought the 90D and 85D shared the same chemistry and it was nothing more than a firmware update, but there is so much information that I might have just confused myself. I have been looking at a lot of information and trying to decide on a CPO 90D or just wait out prices to get lower on 100D.

 

[murphyS90D]

I have an S90D that is 2.75 years old. The EPA rating for my car is 288. It is now at 281. It is my second battery though. At 920 miles the maximum range dropped to 100 miles for the first battery.

 

[Superman910]

I have an S90D that is 2.75 years old. The EPA rating for my car is 288. It is now at 281. It is my second battery though. At 920 miles the maximum range dropped to 100 miles for the first battery.

Well thank God for that battery warranty. Are you happy with the drop so far?

 

[EV-CPO]

I have an S90D that is 2.75 years old. The EPA rating for my car is 288. It is now at 281. It is my second battery though. At 920 miles the maximum range dropped to 100 miles for the first battery.

And who said the 8 year battery warranty didn't cover degradation and only covered total failure?

 

[L-P-G]

Well thank God for that battery warranty. Are you happy with the drop so far?

I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not, Either way my S90D is down to 276 from 286 and my P90DL is down to 262 from 265 so it really varies based on manufacturing.

And who said the 8 year battery warranty didn't cover degradation and only covered total failure?

I'm pretty sure it does not, unless you have some drastic degradation, when my S90D entered the 270s I brought it up to my SA and he said it was normal and nothing they could do. Then again this was the Orlando SC which is known for having the shittiest service.

 

[Superman910]

I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not, Either way my S90D is down to 276 from 286 and my P90DL is down to 262 from 265 so it really varies based on manufacturing.



I'm pretty sure it does not, unless you have some drastic degradation, when my S90D entered the 270s I brought it up to my SA and he said it was normal and nothing they could do. Then again this was the Orlando SC which is known for having the shittiest service.

no sarcasm.....I would have lost my *sugar* with that kind of range drop

 

[EV-CPO]

I have an S90D that is 2.75 years old. The EPA rating for my car is 288. It is now at 281. It is my second battery though. At 920 miles the maximum range dropped to 100 miles for the first battery.

And who said the 8 year battery warranty didn't cover degradation and only covered total failure?

I'm pretty sure it does not, unless you have some drastic degradation.

I was referring to this assertion from Troy:

You might think that the battery has 8 years warranty, therefore you don't have to worry about degradation. That's not correct. The 8 years warranty is only for complete failure. It doesn't cover degradation in any shape or form. In fact, if you read the warranty document, it specifically says that degradation is not covered.

Clearly, 288 miles of range down to 100 miles of range is "degradation", not "complete failure" so clearly the warranty does cover the battery in situations other than "complete failure." Just another example of FUD and hyperbole compliments of @Troy.

when my S90D entered the 270s I brought it up to my SA and he said it was normal and nothing they could do. Then again this was the Orlando SC which is known for having the shittiest service.

They're right. 288 miles to 270 miles is pretty normal for a car a few years old.

 

[D.E.]

Hi All, i'm considering buying my very first Tesla and hoping some of you experienced owners can help make the decision final. I'm looking to get a used Model S.and have been spending quite a bit of time on Tesla.com browsing their used vehicles. I'm basically looking for info on battery differences and ranges. I see some 90D's with 0-60 in 5.4 secs and 265 mile range and some 90D's do 0-60 in 4.2 with a range of 294 miles. Both seems to be same battery and drivetrain yet one is faster and has an additional 30 miles range. Then there's the 85 that seems to offer the same 0-60 5.4 secs and 265 mile range as the 90D. Can someone explain to me how they are either the same with different performances or different with the same performances? Its a bit confusing and makes it a bit difficult to decide which model to purchase. Any inside is greatly appreciated.

There are a lot of strong opinions here. The S and the 3 are both awesome cars.After that, the disagreements are on the degree of awesomeness, and that is in the eye of the poster. For you, it’ll depend on what your priorities are. I’ve got a dual motor S. For me it is perfect. It’s quick but not the quickest. It goes a long way on a charge but not the furthest. Mine has lifetime free supercharging. I figure that is worth about $600 per year but it depends on how many trips and how long they are.

Anyway having owned a Tesla, I think I could be happy with any Tesla. Whatever choice you make, it’ll be a right one.