M3 issue in the Colorado Mountains

[acoste]

There are so many types of AWD systems, but most AWD systems are simple and actually are 1 wheel drive in certain conditions. All the power can be lost to 1 wheel. Audi with a real center diff forced power front and rear, thus was a 2 wheel drive. If you add a limited slip diff in the back, you have 3 wheel drive. A LSD up front and you have a real 4 wheel drive. Typically only off road trucks have real 4 wheel drive (LSD front and rear, lockinglcenter diff) and some specialty rally cars (WRX STI, Focus RS, Lancer Evo). The Tesla can mimic an LSD by braking wheels that slip, but still no where as much power is delivered as with a real LSD.

Wow I did not mean to go on so long! Just at the SC and it's so cold it's only Charging at 20-40kw......

TL;DR: Tesla's AWD is on par with Quattro systems without an LSD. It is far better than most other AWD systems.

Based on your description Audi does the exact same thing as Tesla (braking the slipping wheel). Audi has a long history of AWDs. Why do you say that Tesla's system is on par? One thing that can make a car unstable on a slippery road is if the torque vectoring is not controlled well. OP's story tells me that's what's happening.

 

[Nate977p]

Hey there,
On the trip, a couple times I almost came to a stop (traffic). Gaining speed it felt like only 1 tire was working. Both times, I remember thinking my Quattro never felt like this. Always felt like both wheels (front and rear) were moving.

My Audis:
2002 tt - a tank in the Winter
2005 S4 Avant - even better tank -- it drove like it had spikes
2006 S6 Avant - dominated in the Winter
2012 A7, stage 4 tune - really great in the Winter

Tesla has a lot of work to do to catch up to Quattro.

Thanks for explaining more!

So you have had all the best Quattro

My Audi was a tank and I expect my P3D to beat it. Mechanically it is superior in design. Now that doesn't mean Teslas traction control and stability control isn't calibrated poorly. Even the ABS calibration could cause issues with it braking slipping wheels.

I hear your point on settings, but for science, try slip start on and chill mode on. A big issue your are experiencing is overwhelming the little traction you get when it is slippery with all the lowend torque. That is a huge factor. Right behind the tires. Again, I hope Tesla comes up with a snow mode.

Actually, I wonder about Track Mode. Track Mode may ironically be great in snow. It's dialed in to limit traction systems in the goal of gaining every ounce of grip at the cost of some extra slip. It ironically may work really well. Or not . I'm going to try that next snow....

But my point is I do not doubt your Audi's were better. From a straight mechanical concept, Tesla should be superior due to Independent control of torque at each axle. Tesla's calibration of traction control could be far weaker and let too much slip. And again, tires a factor.

 

[spinbackwards]

You bought a performance winter tire. It is designed to compromise a bit of winter handling in return for better performance on dry roads. If you live in an area where you need maximum winter traction a lot of the time you will want maximum performance winter tires like the Nokians.

I've had this tire on other cars, where I live. It was fine.

For what it’s worth I actually swapped out of the Nokian Hakka’s because it was like driving on marshmallows, really brought down the handling of my car. I need winter traction some of the time not all of the time so I switched to the performance Blizzak LM001. The handling in the dry is a lot better.

I drove Audi’s with Quattro for years. You do have to make adjustments in winter driving, for example shifting into a higher gear so you aren’t applying too much torque to the wheels and getting wheel slip. Electric cars are torque monsters so you are going to have to modify your driving style.

Reducing regen can help. Better tires can help. Narrower tires might help... almost a certainty that your tires are wider than your Audi.
They are

In winter driving you want a narrower tire since it will track through the snow and ice better than a wide tire.

I get that. But here's the thing. Neither Nokian, nor Blizzak, makes a snow tire for this car. In fact the only snow tire I know of that fits this car is the one I have.

 

[spinbackwards]

Thanks for explaining more!

So you have had all the best Quattro

My Audi was a tank and I expect my P3D to beat it. Mechanically it is superior in design. Now that doesn't mean Teslas traction control and stability control isn't calibrated poorly. Even the ABS calibration could cause issues with it braking slipping wheels.

I hear your point on settings, but for science, try slip start on and chill mode on. A big issue your are experiencing is overwhelming the little traction you get when it is slippery with all the lowend torque. That is a huge factor. Right behind the tires. Again, I hope Tesla comes up with a snow mode.

Actually, I wonder about Track Mode. Track Mode may ironically be great in snow. It's dialed in to limit traction systems in the goal of gaining every ounce of grip at the cost of some extra slip. It ironically may work really well. Or not . I'm going to try that next snow....

But my point is I do not doubt your Audi's were better. From a straight mechanical concept, Tesla should be superior due to Independent control of torque at each axle. Tesla's calibration of traction control could be far weaker and let too much slip. And again, tires a factor.

I'm not going back to ICE cars. But if Audi had a car with the range of mine, I'd trade mine tomorrow.

I knew when I bought the car that it was early. My friend Tony, who drives an S, wasn't convinced Tesla was the right car for where I live. So I knew there'd be gotchas. But I didn't expect I wouldn't feel safe. I paid $75k for this car. I expected better.

 

[Nate977p]

You bought a performance winter tire. It is designed to compromise a bit of winter handling in return for better performance on dry roads. If you live in an area where you need maximum winter traction a lot of the time you will want maximum performance winter tires like the Nokians.

For what it’s worth I actually swapped out of the Nokian Hakka’s because it was like driving on marshmallows, really brought down the handling of my car. I need winter traction some of the time not all of the time so I switched to the performance Blizzak LM001. The handling in the dry is a lot better.

I drove Audi’s with Quattro for years. You do have to make adjustments in winter driving, for example shifting into a higher gear so you aren’t applying too much torque to the wheels and getting wheel slip. Electric cars are torque monsters so you are going to have to modify your driving style.

Reducing regen can help. Better tires can help. Narrower tires might help... almost a certainty that your tires are wider than your Audi. In winter driving you want a narrower tire since it will track through the snow and ice better than a wide tire.

Actually funny you say that. My non-s A4 has wider tires than my P3D (245 vs 235).

 

[SigNC]

I think Tesla should either make damn sure that the Auto wipers work reliably in all conditions, or they need to find a way to make the manual modes easier to operate than fumbling around with the screen.

there really isn't any fumbling. You hit the end of the stalk for one wipe and it auto switches the card on the screen to wiper controls.

 

[Nate977p]

I've had this tire before. It was fine on my Audi's. And, it is a snow tire (some posts in this thread indicate it's not). It's definitely a soft tire, which is a good thing for the snow.

I'm not expecting to match my Audis. But I also want to feel safe.

I've had the tire I have now on other cars, where I live. It was fine.

Now, in an effort to feel safe, I have to chump up for new wheels and tires? That's bunk. Tesla should pay for this.

I knew I was taking a chance on a 20" wheel. But I also believed that Tesla's All-Wheel-Drive, which everyone has to agree is advertised as great, would make up for it. After all, it's Tesla, right?

Luckily, I have the dough ray me to go buy a new set of wheels/tires.

Do you know size of the other tires running Alpines? Size does make a difference to some degree.

As for the tire size and Tesla paying, I can't agree there, you took the risk. If you buy a Porsche with summer tires and big rims, you know the risk. I agree Tesla should have a 19 or 18" option for rims for the P3D.

I also think you should try next time changing the two settings mentioned (slip start and chill mode). Breaking available traction kills any AWD system. The Tesla has way more torque than any of the Audi's and it is very easy to not realize how much you are putting down. Again I agree Tesla should calibrate better and a snow mode would be nice, but at least give these settings a try. Maybe make a snow profile that is easy to change to?

On the Subaru front, Subaru is on par mostly with Audi Quattro, so if anyone will be pulling away, it will be Audi, Subaru, or a real 4WD truck

 

[SigNC]

I'm not going back to ICE cars. But if Audi had a car with the range of mine, I'd trade mine tomorrow.

I knew when I bought the car that it was early. My friend Tony, who drives an S, wasn't convinced Tesla was the right car for where I live. So I knew there'd be gotchas. But I didn't expect I wouldn't feel safe. I paid $75k for this car. I expected better.

Buy a 2nd set of rims for the winter and put proper tires on them. There are several threads of people doing this in much less snow prone areas than where you are.

P3D+ 20” Winter Tires / Wheels

 

[Daniel in SD]

I get that. But here's the thing. Neither Nokian, nor Blizzak, makes a snow tire for this car. In fact the only snow tire I know of that fits this car is the one I have.

Most people who buy snow tires get a separate set of rims. Not many people run 20” rims with low profile tires in the snow. Sounds like a good way to destroy your rims.
No idea why Tesla doesn’t sell a set of 18” rims that fit the red brakes but there are probably 100s of 3rd party rims that will fit. I haven’t driven a P3D but if you’re going to have 450 horsepower the throttle pedal is going to be touchy. There’s no way around it except to turn down the power.

 

[Nate977p]

Most people who buy snow tires get a separate set of rims. Not many people run 20” rims with low profile tires in the snow. Sounds like a good way to destroy your rims.
No idea why Tesla doesn’t sell a set of 18” rims that fit the red brakes but there are probably 100s of 3rd party rims that will fit. I haven’t driven a P3D but if you’re going to have 450 horsepower the throttle pedal is going to be touchy. There’s no way around it except to turn down the power.

While I do not agree with OP on some items, his root concern I think is fair .Audi is the gold standard of AWD (or was....) And with similar cars with the same tires, the Audi was a tank where Tesla scared them. That's a fair argument.

Power is definitely a huge factor and trying to limit it (chill mode) should help. But the 3 should be mechanically superior. If there is such a disparity, there may be some real calibration issues with Tesla's AWD and TC. Remember, this is the first season ever with these cars in series production in the snow (AWD model I mean). Yes they have experience with S and X, but characteristics of the 3 are much different.

 

[spinbackwards]

Do you know size of the other tires running Alpines? Size does make a difference to some degree.

>>I think the only snow tire for this rim is the one I have.

As for the tire size and Tesla paying, I can't agree there, you took the risk. If you buy a Porsche with summer tires and big rims, you know the risk.

>> No one I know who lives up here is going to drive a Porsche with big rims in the Winter. Tesla should sell a car that performs with the same size summer and winter tire. The 20" tire doesn't perform in where I live Winter. So Tesla isn't being straight with customers.

I agree Tesla should have a 19 or 18" option for rims for the P3D.

>> Please tell Elon!


I also think you should try next time changing the two settings mentioned (slip start and chill mode). Breaking available traction kills any AWD system. The Tesla has way more torque than any of the Audi's and it is very easy to not realize how much you are putting down. Again I agree Tesla should calibrate better and a snow mode would be nice, but at least give these settings a try. Maybe make a snow profile that is easy to change to?

>> Will do. But now I have to train my wife? The car is $75k. Tesla needs to get it together.

On the Subaru front, Subaru is on par mostly with Audi Quattro, so if anyone will be pulling away, it will be Audi, Subaru, or a real 4WD truck

>> My ego took a big hit yesterday. It's been a long time, since someone has pulled away from me in the mountains - on the roads or the slopes.

 

[spinbackwards]

Most people who buy snow tires get a separate set of rims. Not many people run 20” rims with low profile tires in the snow. Sounds like a good way to destroy your rims.

>>Fair enough. But Tesla advertises that its cars have great All Wheel Drive. I'm calling bunk.

No idea why Tesla doesn’t sell a set of 18” rims that fit the red brakes but there are probably 100s of 3rd party rims that will fit. I haven’t driven a P3D but if you’re going to have 450 horsepower the throttle pedal is going to be touchy. There’s no way around it except to turn down the power.

>> Or, offer my car in an 18" wheel. Tesla can't have it both ways. If they're going to sell my car in only a 20" wheel, then they need to warn drivers that if they're driving where I live, they're going to need different wheels.

 

[DrDabbles]

This post drove me insane almost immediately. Reading it was like an anti-marijuana ad all by itself.

Anyway, the brakes have nothing to do with this. Not sure why they were mentioned, but they're not related. You have high performance tires on a performance package vehicle, and the tires are rated worst for the exact conditions described. Why wasn't the car set up for winter in Colorado from the factory? Because it's the performance vehicle. Tesla likely made the assumption that if you were going to spend the money on it, you probably knew what you were doing, and would know how to choose tires or a wheel/tire combination suited for where you live.

I don't believe the car in that config. is safe in where I live Winter. In fact I know it's not. I think it's a violation of truth in advertising to advertise that it is.

The Tesla with 20" performance wheels is absolutely not in any way advertised as safe in winter conditions. It is explicitly stated that it is not safe in those conditions. There's no truth in advertising issue here, you just didn't bother to read the owner's manual.

>> Or, offer my car in an 18" wheel. Tesla can't have it both ways. If they're going to sell my car in only a 20" wheel, then they need to warn drivers that if they're driving where I live, they're going to need different wheels.

They did, sort of. The performance model 3 without the performance upgrade package came with the 18" aero wheels. Just buy 18" wheels that will fit your car and move on with life. Are you angry that Ford or in your case Audi doesn't offer every possible wheel and tire combination? This thread is like visiting a bizarre parallel universe where you bought the most expensive Tesla you could just so you could complain about it not having infinite configurability from the factory.

 

[acoste]

But the 3 should be mechanically superior.

Again, why? It has an open differential with selective braking functionality. You have already described it. Audi has a couple of diesel engines so controlling a high torque source isn't unknown there either.

 

[Daniel in SD]

While I do not agree with OP on some items, his root concern I think is fair .Audi is the gold standard of AWD (or was....) And with similar cars with the same tires, the Audi was a tank where Tesla scared them. That's a fair argument.

Power is definitely a huge factor and trying to limit it (chill mode) should help. But the 3 should be mechanically superior. If there is such a disparity, there may be some real calibration issues with Tesla's AWD and TC. Remember, this is the first season ever with these cars in series production in the snow (AWD model I mean). Yes they have experience with S and X, but characteristics of the 3 are much different.

I’ve had both an Audi and a Subaru and I can’t say they were miraculous. You step on the gas and the car goes, you push harder and all four wheels spin. They both sent equal torque to all wheels if there were no speed differentials between the wheels.
I wonder if the problem could be that the Model 3 sends more power to the rear motor than the front unless slippage is detected. This would be optimal for efficiency (the rear motor is more efficient) but not great for slippery conditions.

 

[Nate977p]

Again, why? It has an open differential with selective braking functionality. You have already described it. Audi has a couple of diesel engines so controlling a high torque source isn't unknown there either.

This may warrant a different thread. But my thoughts...

You do not have a center diff that you have parasitic losses in. But more importantly you do not need to balance engine and transmission output with a split of torque at the center diff. You can fully indepently control the torque at each axle.

Since both cars have open diffs, they are for all purposes identically on left right torque (minus what TC or ABS does).

 

[DrDabbles]

Audi is the gold standard of AWD (or was....)

My STI disagrees and laughs at at the Quattro system.

 

[Nate977p]

I’ve had both an Audi and a Subaru and I can’t say they were miraculous. You step on the gas and the car goes, you push harder and all four wheels spin. They both sent equal torque to all wheels if there were no speed differentials between the wheels.
I wonder if the problem could be that the Model 3 sends more power to the rear motor than the front unless slippage is detected. This would be optimal for efficiency (the rear motor is more efficient) but not great for slippery conditions.

No they do not send equal power to all wheels at all. And there is no real practical situation where traction is identical at each wheel. Subaru and Audi typically have a great ability to split torque front and rear, but left and right is fully dictated by available traction (TC and ABS will step in at some point to slow a spinning wheel).

The only way to send guaranteed power to each wheel is with three locking diffs or a motor at each wheel.

As for your thoughts on how Tesla splits power, I really really hope not. That's horrible and is no better than the most basic AWD systems that decouple. Obviously it's all on the programming and once it engages, there is a big advantage, but you may have a few moments where the front .otor isn't sending torque. Ugh you could actually be right, where It acts as most basic AWD where the back axle is decoupled until slip is detected.

Hence a need for snow mode! Or Track Mode may actually help in snow....

 

[Daniel in SD]

>> Or, offer my car in an 18" wheel. Tesla can't have it both ways. If they're going to sell my car in only a 20" wheel, then they need to warn drivers that if they're driving where I live, they're going to need different wheels.

The Audi S7 only comes with summer tires on 20” or 21” rims. Very common for performance models to ship with summer tires on big rims. BMW M cars are the same way. I agree that it is odd that car companies sell cars that are unsafe to drive off the lot. Maybe other car dealers do warn drivers? I don’t know.

 

[Nate977p]

My STI disagrees and laughs at at the Quattro system.

Hey I said Subaru and Audi are on similar plane! You found the one reference I missed saying Subaru!

A few posts back, I even called out the STI saying it is the best (with the Lancer EVO and Focus RS (only 2018MY))