M3 issue in the Colorado Mountains

[spinbackwards]

Hi OP, I live on the other side of the same mountain (in Utah) and have been running Blizzarks on 18" rims. Even though I am RWD, my winter performance has been good so far. I assume you changed regen to low and dropped your pressure a bit. I agree that wipers can be a real pain at times.

For your defrost setting, did you tap defrost twice? One tap gives you lower setting. Second tap gives you full heat.

Hey man. No doubt about it, it was bad yesterday. In fact I can't remember when it's been that bad. But I've been up here a long time. I've been in worse - in Audis with snow tires, including the same tires I have on now -- albeit 17's or 18's.

One thing I didn't write much about was the traction. Some have written here to start "flipping switches" -- as if I'm some sort of a pilot. Regen on/off, slip on/off, etc. That's asking way too much of a driver. In fact it's dangerous, because a driver has to take their eyes off the road.

In my Audi's, there's no "switches" to flip. You just drive.

I'm really glad my wife and son weren't in the car. And asking her to flip switches on/off, is way over her head. Audi's don't ask that of their drivers and neither should Tesla.

 

[spinbackwards]

That's not a bad idea at all. multiple clicks in rapid succession... Or even two clicks to turn it on and a scroll wheel to adjust modes while the windshield wiper card is up.

Someone should tweet Elon and Tesla.

Someone should tell Elon to spend some time in this car, with snow tires, in the Colorado Mountains when it's coming down.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

What do I have to gain by click bait? Nothing.

You can interpret what you want. But this car isn't ready for where I live Winter.

Definitely sounds most likely to be tires. It's possible that the traction control could be tuned, but generally people seem to be having good results. However, it's also true that certain conditions can just be awfully slippery regardless of the vehicle. Maybe you just hit a particularly slippery time, and combined with these particular tires it was no good.

For tire cost reasons, you probably want to go to 18" aftermarket wheels anyway (as indicated above, the 18" currently available from Tesla will not fit the PUO red brake calipers, which is definitely a sad situation, and additionally buying aftermarket requires special fitting & offset considerations due to the "lip" associated with the thinner two-piece rotors). But, seems worthwhile to invest in a winter wheel set and save your performance 20" tires/wheelset for summer (if appropriate for you - it may be cold enough for a long enough period that just an all-season of some sort might be better for the summer tires - you'll sacrifice maximum braking performance and handling in summer though).

I understand what you're saying about flipping switches, and to some extent I agree that Tesla could detect slipping and outside temperature and intelligently shift to "chill" mode (and go to low regen). Or just make an automatic swich to chill mode an option (maybe not everyone wants it to automatically switch)! But, just to be aware of what happened in this case: what mode were you in? This car has a lot of power and torque and it definitely seems like it could be tricky to modulate in stressful winter driving conditions. Hence, chill mode.

 

[spinbackwards]

Press the button on the left to manually trigger the wiper whenever you need it absolutely right now.

It's not a fan boy attitude. It's simply experience with using windshield wipers and knowing how to use them, how to care for them, etc.

Keep in mind you are the one that set it to auto...

https://www.tesla.com/content/dam/tesla/Ownership/Own/Model 3 Owners Manual.pdf#page=55

Too many here expect drivers to flip switches, as if the car requires some kind of training to operate. That's asking way too much of a driver. It's a $75k car. Audi's don't ask this of their drivers. I know. I've driven them for years. I sold one to buy this car.

I'm not suggesting I'm going back to an Audi. I'm done with ICE cars. Our A7 had 150k miles, I wasn't going to buy another ICE car. So I bought a Tesla.

I knew I was taking chances. I knew I was buying a car that was unproven in where I live Winter conditions. I'm not beeching or asking for a refund. I'm just saying this car is a downgrade, in so far as where I live Winter driving.

I also think Tesla isn't being straight with buyers. I hope Elon gets this. Then I hope he shows up on my door step the next Winter storm and asks to drive my car.

 

[spinbackwards]

I'm a little confused here, OP. How exactly did your brakes fail? Your post and title don't seem to match.

Regarding things getting slippery, what's the difference between an ICE pushing 4 wheels and electric motors pushing 4 wheels? The vehicle weights are about the same, 4 wheels are turning, so what's different?

I call the car "red brakes", it's just what I call it. I guess, it's a P3D?

The brakes didn't fail. The car didn't perform as advertised, or near as well as the Audi's I've had or our 2003 VW EuroVan, aka, the HIPEVAN. The car was unsafe in the conditions yesterday.

 

[SMAlset]

OP, Teslas are very popular in Canada and countries like Norway. I think your impression that Teslas aren't tested and driven in the cold and snow is way off base. Maybe you need to compare notes with some local Colorado owners. Erik, who is a YouTube video producer of numerous Tesla videos, lives in Colorado. We have a lot of Colorado owners on the forum. Msybr check out a local Tesla owners group here on the forum.

As for the TeslaCam, have you used it already. I haven't set mine up yet. Did you turn record on when you started out and see it recording. I'm use to using a Blackvue dashcam on our other car and it's always on so this will be a learning curve for me.

Teslas are different from your Audis. There is a learning curve. Give it some time and talk to local owners to see how they set up their cars. I suspect in a few years Audis will be more like Teslas.

 

[spinbackwards]

OP, I drove from Denver up to Winter Park yesterday around 9:00am or so. I70 was shut down heading past Loveland so we went to WP. The ride up 40 was pretty bad, snow covered roads. I have a performance 3 with 18" Michellin XICE on and was sliding around more than I did in my Honda fit. Strange, I didn't have a problem the last storm we had but I saw a few other cars slipping a bit too. I'm not sure what to think, but it didn't feel as solid as I would have liked.

Yes. Today at the Littleton Service Center I was moaning to a service rep, telling him I was bummed I that the car didn't perform the way I had hoped. He said he's heard it before.

 

[spinbackwards]

OP, Teslas are very popular in Canada and countries like Norway. I think your impression that Teslas aren't tested and driven in the cold and snow is way off base. Maybe you need to compare notes with some local Colorado owners. Erik, who is a YouTube video producer of numerous Tesla videos, lives in Colorado. We have a lot of Colorado owners on the forum. Msybr check out a local Tesla owners group here on the forum.

As for the TeslaCam, have you used it already. I haven't set mine up yet. Did you turn record on when you started out and see it recording. I'm use to using a Blackvue dashcam on our other car and it's always on so this will be a learning curve for me.

Not sure about the Cam. I was bummed it didn't have the vids, because I'd love for Elon to see them.

What's there to compare? I was in the car, it's what happened. It's not the first time. I've felt it slip before. This car doesn't perform as well as any Audi I've had. Our HIPEVAN feels way better in snow.

Colorado owners are one thing. Colorado owners who live in the mountains are something else entirely.

 

[spinbackwards]

Hi OP, I live on the other side of the same mountain (in Utah) and have been running Blizzarks on 18" rims. Even though I am RWD, my winter performance has been good so far. I assume you changed regen to low and dropped your pressure a bit. I agree that wipers can be a real pain at times.

For your defrost setting, did you tap defrost twice? One tap gives you lower setting. Second tap gives you full heat.

Defrost worked fine. It's the traction, that failed.

 

[spinbackwards]

You are cherry picking from the reviews.

Consumer report says:
"Excellent snow traction and stopping on ice without much compromise to handling and traction on cleared roads."

Review 1: "Takes my Audi S3 through to November to April, mostly cold and wet roads but with regular snow covered and hilly terrain. An all rounder except the most extreme unplowed circumstances."

Review 2: "Snow traction simply OK.
I drive a 2012 Volkswagen Golf TDI, an economy car with a relatively sporty demeanor, and expected lots of stick when the snow fell. Instead, I watch helplessly as the Hyundai Accent next to me--shod with OEM all-season tires likely a third of the price of the Pilot Alpin 4s--pull away from me at a stop light. Lateral grip on snowy surfaces isn't much better, with lift-throttle oversteer particularly pronounced--at least in the Golf I drive."

Review 3: "Very good dry and wet
These are generally great. They handle in the dry winter nearly as well as my ultra high performance summers do in the warm weather. Wet is great as well. A couple of inches of snow is fine with these. Deep snow and ice are still a challenge, though that is probably as much the effect of my rear wheel drive car with low is clearance as the tries."

I've had this tire before on my A7. Never had a problem. Not my favorite snow tire, but it was fine -- on my A7.

 

[spinbackwards]

Wipers: I am pretty sure they can be turned off - see a prior post.

Definitely the stock P3D+ isn't safe in winter. I'm not sure whether that is really a truth in advertising thing though. Page 131 of the Model 3 owner's manual tells you that you need winter tires if your vehicle is equipped with summer tires!

I do understand you are NOT using the stock tires; I am just responding to the truth in advertising comment.

"Warning:
In cold temperatures or on snow
or ice, summer tires do not provide
adequate traction. Selecting and installing
the appropriate tires for winter conditions
is important to ensure the safety and
optimum performance of your Model 3 "

Anyway, regarding other modes, since you did not have the wipers turned off:

Were you in Chill mode?

Did you have Slip Start enabled? The manual recommends having it off in most conditions but obviously for some starting conditions it might be needed - however, it should be turned off afterwards from what I understand.

Regen was set to low? Understood you were driving uphill but it's not clear exactly when you were experiencing the worst sliding...

I tried Slip Start. When I did, I got what looked like a traction control nag light. So I turned it back on. Again, this idea of asking a driver to flip back and forth between settings is unrealistic. Audi doesn't ask this of its drivers. My wife certainly isn't up to the task of flipping switches.

Turning on the defroster is expected. But beyond that, the driver needs to do concentrate on the road.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

I've had this tire before on my A7. Never had a problem. Not my favorite snow tire, but it was fine -- on my A7.

How new are your set of Alpins? If it's within the first 500 miles, the tread release compound can prevent you from getting full traction. I had this happen on a set of Nokian WRG4's. After 500 miles, they felt much better.

You might also lower the pressure a bit ... go down to about 38 psi. You might get a tire pressure warning but don't worry about it. Watch the pressure carefully as you go up the mountain because as you increase in altitude the pressure will rise.

 

[spinbackwards]

How new are your set of Alpins? If it's within the first 500 miles, the tread release compound can prevent you from getting full traction. I had this happen on a set of Nokian WRG4's. After 500 miles, they felt much better.

You might also lower the pressure a bit ... go down to about 38 psi. You might get a tire pressure warning but don't worry about it. Watch the pressure carefully as you go up the mountain because as you increase in altitude the pressure will rise.

Hey man.
The car has 10k on it. At least 6k on the snow tires.

Good suggestion about the tire pressure. But again, this is a hack. It's a $75k car. Drivers shouldn't be expected to dink around with tire pressure. Audi never asked me to do that.

I keep referencing Audi. I'm not going back to an ICE car. There's plenty to love about my car. But as far as where I live winter driving, the car doesn't come close to any of my Audi's.

I was worried about not having Quattro in the Winter. I believed Tesla's hype about their All Wheel Drive. In my car, their All Wheel Drive doesn't come to close to Quattro.

 

[spinbackwards]

Hey man.
The car has 10k on it. At least 6k on the snow tires.

Good suggestion about the tire pressure. But again, this is a hack. It's a $75k car. Drivers shouldn't be expected to dink around with tire pressure. Audi never asked me to do that.

I keep referencing Audi. I'm not going back to an ICE car. There's plenty to love about my car. But as far as where I live winter driving, the car doesn't come close to any of my Audi's.

I was worried about not having Quattro in the Winter. I believed Tesla's hype about their All Wheel Drive. In my car, their All Wheel Drive doesn't come to close to Quattro.

 

[Nate977p]

I tried Slip Start. When I did, I got what looked like a traction control nag light. So I turned it back on. Again, this idea of asking a driver to flip back and forth between settings is unrealistic. Audi doesn't ask this of its drivers. My wife certainly isn't up to the task of flipping switches.

Turning on the defroster is expected. But beyond that, the driver needs to do concentrate on the road.

I have Nokian Hakka 9 studded on my car. Literally in a freezing rain Storm right now in Northern NH (stopped at SC). Ice build up isn't too bad, but very solid. I have not had too much experience with the car in deep snow yet, but so far feels solid.

I am very experienced in winter driving and snow tires; I also came straight from a modern Audi. The Audi was a tank no doubt. I think asking a user to flip on slip start or limit Regen is not too much to ask. Many cars have a snow mode or traction slip mode (my Audi had different levels of TC). Now that being said, a snow mode to automatically limit Regen, turn on slip, and put chill on would be great. I do agree 3 switches is a bit much and could be simplified.

I second you and other posters; 18" and Nokians (as you suggested). You bought performance snows which are moreso meant for cars that are not going through the mountains in a snow storm, but rather places with less snow coverage or short jaunts in the snow. They are better than all seasons, but not the same as true snows. But they are much better on dry cold pavement.

As for the AWD on this car vs Audi it depends on what car you speak of. The last good AWD Audi did (SUPER TOUCHY SUBJECT to Audi fans) was the last gen Quattro. It had a true center diff, but both front and rear diff were open. The newer Quattro (Quattro Ultra) is a more slip-detected system. Assuming your A7, you had the last gen Quattro (the good one), but had two open diffs (as you did not have S7 w/sport diff or RS7). In raw mechanical traction, the Tesla is at a minimum equal.

Tesla has the really cool advantage of having two wheels driven at all times; there is no way to lose all your power to open diffs.

There are so many types of AWD systems, but most AWD systems are simple and actually are 1 wheel drive in certain conditions. All the power can be lost to 1 wheel. Audi with a real center diff forced power front and rear, thus was a 2 wheel drive. If you add a limited slip diff in the back, you have 3 wheel drive. A LSD up front and you have a real 4 wheel drive. Typically only off road trucks have real 4 wheel drive (LSD front and rear, lockinglcenter diff) and some specialty rally cars (WRX STI, Focus RS, Lancer Evo). The Tesla can mimic an LSD by braking wheels that slip, but still no where as much power is delivered as with a real LSD.

Wow I did not mean to go on so long! Just at the SC and it's so cold it's only Charging at 20-40kw......

TL;DR: Tesla's AWD is on par with Quattro systems without an LSD. It is far better than most other AWD systems.

 

[spinbackwards]

Definitely sounds most likely to be tires. It's possible that the traction control could be tuned, but generally people seem to be having good results. However, it's also true that certain conditions can just be awfully slippery regardless of the vehicle. Maybe you just hit a particularly slippery time, and combined with these particular tires it was no good.

For tire cost reasons, you probably want to go to 18" aftermarket wheels anyway (as indicated above, the 18" currently available from Tesla will not fit the PUO red brake calipers, which is definitely a sad situation, and additionally buying aftermarket requires special fitting & offset considerations due to the "lip" associated with the thinner two-piece rotors). But, seems worthwhile to invest in a winter wheel set and save your performance 20" tires/wheelset for summer (if appropriate for you - it may be cold enough for a long enough period that just an all-season of some sort might be better for the summer tires - you'll sacrifice maximum braking performance and handling in summer though).

I understand what you're saying about flipping switches, and to some extent I agree that Tesla could detect slipping and outside temperature and intelligently shift to "chill" mode (and go to low regen). Or just make an automatic swich to chill mode an option (maybe not everyone wants it to automatically switch)! But, just to be aware of what happened in this case: what mode were you in? This car has a lot of power and torque and it definitely seems like it could be tricky to modulate in stressful winter driving conditions. Hence, chill mode.

hey brother (or sister?),

Yep, I'm all over the 18's. I'm getting the TSportline wheels. Hopefully, that'll make a difference.

One thing. My Audi's are a high bar to beat. But when Subaru's aren't slipping and I am, given what I paid for the car, that's a bummer. Or when cars that cost half of what mine did aren't slipping, that blows too.

On the way up Vail Pass I was behind a Subie. He wasn't slipping.

Maybe in other Tesla's the All Wheel Drive is a winner? I don't know. But in this one, it's not as advertised.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

Hey man.
The car has 10k on it. At least 6k on the snow tires.

Good suggestion about the tire pressure. But again, this is a hack. It's a $75k car. Drivers shouldn't be expected to dink around with tire pressure. Audi never asked me to do that.

I keep referencing Audi. I'm not going back to an ICE car. There's plenty to love about my car. But as far as where I live winter driving, the car doesn't come close to any of my Audi's.

I was worried about not having Quattro in the Winter. I believed Tesla's hype about their All Wheel Drive. In my car, their All Wheel Drive doesn't come to close to Quattro.

The only other item I can suggest is that the Alpins might not be the best tire for these conditions. You're using the 20" version which is a huge compromise. The snow tire rubber is supposed to be softer, but to get 20" 35 series tires to hold the weight, they had to make some trade-offs. It's possible that the Alpins in the 235/35R20 size may perform very differently from the size you had on your Audi.

Also don't forget that the Model 3 is probably 600-800 pounds heavier than your Audi. The tires and the associated traction will be relatively more important and any flaws much more noticeable.

I'd suggest 18" wheels with Hakkas or X-Ice, and I think you'll get a much better result.

 

[spinbackwards]

I have Nokian Hakka 9 studded on my car. Literally in a freezing rain Storm right now in Northern NH (stopped at SC). Ice build up isn't too bad, but very solid. I have not had too much experience with the car in deep snow yet, but so far feels solid.

I am very experienced in winter driving and snow tires; I also came straight from a modern Audi. The Audi was a tank no doubt. I think asking a user to flip on slip start or limit Regen is not too much to ask. Many cars have a snow mode or traction slip mode (my Audi had different levels of TC). Now that being said, a snow mode to automatically limit Regen, turn on slip, and put chill on would be great. I do agree 3 switches is a bit much and could be simplified.

I second you and other posters; 18" and Nokians (as you suggested). You bought performance snows which are moreso meant for cars that are not going through the mountains in a snow storm, but rather places with less snow coverage or short jaunts in the snow. They are better than all seasons, but not the same as true snows. But they are much better on dry cold pavement.

As for the AWD on this car vs Audi it depends on what car you speak of. The last good AWD Audi did (SUPER TOUCHY SUBJECT to Audi fans) was the last gen Quattro. It had a true center diff, but both front and rear diff were open. The newer Quattro (Quattro Ultra) is a more slip-detected system. Assuming your A7, you had the last gen Quattro (the good one), but had two open diffs (as you did not have S7 w/sport diff or RS7). In raw mechanical traction, the Tesla is at a minimum equal.

Tesla has the really cool advantage of having two wheels driven at all times; there is no way to lose all your power to open diffs.

There are so many types of AWD systems, but most AWD systems are simple and actually are 1 wheel drive in certain conditions. All the power can be lost to 1 wheel. Audi with a real center diff forced power front and rear, thus was a 2 wheel drive. If you add a limited slip diff in the back, you have 3 wheel drive. A LSD up front and you have a real 4 wheel drive. Typically only off road trucks have real 4 wheel drive (LSD front and rear, lockinglcenter diff) and some specialty rally cars (WRX STI, Focus RS, Lancer Evo). The Tesla can mimic an LSD by braking wheels that slip, but still no where as much power is delivered as with a real LSD.

Wow I did not mean to go on so long! Just at the SC and it's so cold it's only Charging at 20-40kw......

TL;DR: Tesla's AWD is on par with Quattro systems without an LSD. It is far better than most other AWD systems.

Hey there,
On the trip, a couple times I almost came to a stop (traffic). Gaining speed it felt like only 1 tire was working. Both times, I remember thinking my Quattro never felt like this. Always felt like both wheels (front and rear) were moving.

My Audis:
2002 tt - a tank in the Winter
2005 S4 Avant - even better tank -- it drove like it had spikes
2006 S6 Avant - dominated in the Winter
2012 A7, stage 4 tune - really great in the Winter

Tesla has a lot of work to do to catch up to Quattro.

 

[spinbackwards]

The only other item I can suggest is that the Alpins might not be the best tire for these conditions. You're using the 20" version which is a huge compromise. The snow tire rubber is supposed to be softer, but to get 20" 35 series tires to hold the weight, they had to make some trade-offs. It's possible that the Alpins in the 235/35R20 size may perform very differently from the size you had on your Audi.

Also don't forget that the Model 3 is probably 600-800 pounds heavier than your Audi. The tires and the associated traction will be relatively more important and any flaws much more noticeable.

I'd suggest 18" wheels with Hakkas or X-Ice, and I think you'll get a much better result.

I've had this tire before. It was fine on my Audi's. And, it is a snow tire (some posts in this thread indicate it's not). It's definitely a soft tire, which is a good thing for the snow.

I'm not expecting to match my Audis. But I also want to feel safe.

I've had the tire I have now on other cars, where I live. It was fine.

Now, in an effort to feel safe, I have to chump up for new wheels and tires? That's bunk. Tesla should pay for this.

I knew I was taking a chance on a 20" wheel. But I also believed that Tesla's All-Wheel-Drive, which everyone has to agree is advertised as great, would make up for it. After all, it's Tesla, right?

Luckily, I have the dough ray me to go buy a new set of wheels/tires.

 

[voip-ninja]

hey brother (or sister?),

Yep, I'm all over the 18's. I'm getting the TSportline wheels. Hopefully, that'll make a difference.

One thing. My Audi's are a high bar to beat. But when Subaru's aren't slipping and I am, given what I paid for the car, that's a bummer. Or when cars that cost half of what mine did aren't slipping, that blows too.

On the way up Vail Pass I was behind a Subie. He wasn't slipping.

Maybe in other Tesla's the All Wheel Drive is a winner? I don't know. But in this one, it's not as advertised.

You bought a performance winter tire. It is designed to compromise a bit of winter handling in return for better performance on dry roads. If you live in an area where you need maximum winter traction a lot of the time you will want maximum performance winter tires like the Nokians.

For what it’s worth I actually swapped out of the Nokian Hakka’s because it was like driving on marshmallows, really brought down the handling of my car. I need winter traction some of the time not all of the time so I switched to the performance Blizzak LM001. The handling in the dry is a lot better.

I drove Audi’s with Quattro for years. You do have to make adjustments in winter driving, for example shifting into a higher gear so you aren’t applying too much torque to the wheels and getting wheel slip. Electric cars are torque monsters so you are going to have to modify your driving style.

Reducing regen can help. Better tires can help. Narrower tires might help... almost a certainty that your tires are wider than your Audi. In winter driving you want a narrower tire since it will track through the snow and ice better than a wide tire.