M3 Performance Plus thoughts @ 14k miles

[Kingboss]

I was born and raised in Colorado and I think many peoples' expectations are out of touch with reality - as are most the folks complaining about issues on this forum. I think in a Performance Model 3 you are lucky you can change the tires to get sufficient traction for winter conditions. Can you think of many cars that have the performance to go from 0-60 in 3.3 seconds and are good in the snow? We bought a Model 3 Long Range AWD and have not had any issues as mentioned. We have been very happy with our purchase, and will strongly consider upgrading our other vehicles to Teslas in the future (including our 4x4 truck).

I would agree the wipers could use improvement. However, the vast majority of the car is a generation ahead of all the ICE cars on the road. I would argue customers are getting the benefits of a Tesla at a fraction of the costs for their other models. I think many people are unappreciative of how incredible the Model 3 is, and that the standards they apply to Tesla - no other manufacturer could meet.

 

[robski]

Gen-Xer here with 40 years of wisdom.

No offense to OP, but when you're debating someone wearing a cowboy hat and tie-dye pants, standing next to The Mystery Machine and a peace sign, in 2019, you're asking for a stalemate all day, everyday.

I do agree with the wipers concern but never lived in enough snow to put myself in his shoes for everything else.

 

[pscarroll]

I was born and raised in Colorado and I think many peoples' expectations are out of touch with reality - as are most the folks complaining about issues on this forum. I think in a Performance Model 3 you are lucky you can change the tires to get sufficient traction for winter conditions. Can you think of many cars that have the performance to go from 0-60 in 3.3 seconds and are good in the snow? We bought a Model 3 Long Range AWD and have not had any issues as mentioned. We have been very happy with our purchase, and will strongly consider upgrading our other vehicles to Teslas in the future (including our 4x4 truck).

I would agree the wipers could use improvement. However, the vast majority of the car is a generation ahead of all the ICE cars on the road. I would argue customers are getting the benefits of a Tesla at a fraction of the costs for their other models. I think many people are unappreciative of how incredible the Model 3 is, and that the standards they apply to Tesla - no other manufacturer could meet.

Agreed! I have a Performance Model 3 (with the performance upgrade) and have driven all over Colorado and Wyoming without issue, after slapping on 19" snow tires, no problems at all driving around in snow, or for that fact further north or in the north east. No reality check needed, just advanced preparation.

 

[DrDabbles]

your local mechanic

Not just a local mechanic. A specialty shop that does nothing but high performance work. Either way, I'm over this. Think what you want, every source you listed called out some sort of road use condition and how street use doesn't generate temperatures high enough.

 

[Knightshade]

Not just a local mechanic. A specialty shop that does nothing but high performance work.

So you found two places that don't understand how brakes actually work.

I mean- there's a reason it's a common myth that needs actual brake engineers and professionals to frequently debunk it- that's why I've been able to provide so many authoritative sources showing you're wrong, and you've been able to provide "A couple of guys told me..."

Either way, I'm over this. Think what you want, every source you listed called out some sort of road use condition and how street use doesn't generate temperatures high enough.

No, they didn't.

The very first source I gave you explicitly called out racing conditions far harsher than any you have personally been through

Thanks for making it clear you didn't bother actually reading most of the sources proving you wrong though!

 

[dfwatt]

Howdy,

I’m not posting here any longer.

I wanted to share one last post.

We have 14k miles on ours. I’m not sure we’ll buy another Tesla. We’ll see. Quite frankly if Audi caught up I’d look real hard at buying from them given our experience.

I’m still really sore about having to buy 18” wheels and new snow tires just to feel safe. My car with 20” wheels and snow tires just isn’t acceptable up here. And if anyone doesn't believe me, I'll put the wheels and tires back on and prove it. Good news is now that I have 18’s with Nokians, the car feels good.

Tesla makes blanket statements about its AWD that just aren’t true. The videos you see on the Internet, Tesla's in the snow, are about as useful as making a decision based on a snapshot in time. Who cares what a car does in a snowy field with no one around, or in the snow when there's not a car in the other lane on the highway going 60 when it's big time winter? Not me. No one else should, either. These videos are misleading.

Anything else I can help with let me know.

Peace and love,

Kudos to @spinbackwards for starting a vigorous thread and energizing a debate about the pros and cons of the Model 3. I won't beat a dead horse around the wiper and summer and winter tire issues - those have been more than ably responded to, and there is also no debating the question of whether Tesla's service infrastructure is up to the task of servicing an output of 5k cars/week.

What I will say is that it took me a while to realize why I found his post troubling as a general statement from an early adopter. It seems to be a case of missing the forest for all the trees. How so? Let's really look at the TOTAL Pros and Cons of Model 3 (with a ready admission that my lack of experience with any QC problem introduces a relatively positive bias):

1) Best performing sports sedan (at least in DMP+ form), both in classic acceleration times (0-60, 1/4mi) and in more and more track-oriented testing results, easily besting the class leaders over the past several years (the BMW M3 and C 6.3 AMG), and even beating a Ferrari 458 on the Willow Springs Street circuit.
2) Most fuel efficient sedan, and tied with the Nissan Leaf for both city and highway mileage (MPGe), the Leaf being a much smaller and lighter car, suggesting therefore that the Model 3 is truly the most efficient car in the world.
3) Cheapest vehicle to actually own and operate? Definitive longer term data not yet available, but it is reasonable to assume that #2, combined with much lower maintenance costs (no oil changes, virtually no brake wear with proper driving, no transmission, and no engine maintenance), will reliably insure that its actual cost per mile is way lower than any comparable ICE vehicle. Depreciation and insurance costs of course are still operative, but daily/weekly/monthly cash outlays are way less, esp. if you can use free supercharging.
3) Safest sedan, winning outright NHSTA collision testing and achieving best score ever seen. Best passive safety complemented by some of the best active safety, if not the best, in terms of audible collision warnings, radar activated emergency braking assist, other vehicles in proximity being displayed on large touchscreen.
4) Best space utilization in class with highest interior volume and trunk space combined ever seen for a car 15 ft 5 inches long.
5) Most fun to drive? Hard to imagine a qualitative metric for this other than subjective user ratings, but I would bet the Model 3 would win this among all competing sedans.
6) Only sports sedan in class that will get significantly better over time, with ongoing and frequent over the air updates. These have included such things as the now famous "Track Mode," and several enhancements of cold weather operations, the release of better and more capable enhanced auto pilot, and other refinements of systems too numerous to mention.
7) Best radar guided cruise control/enhanced auto pilot - not far from fully autonomous driving capability.
8) Best charger network. This plus #7 mean that Tesla Model 3s are viable highway cars for long trips, despite this being a traditional knock on EVs.

Most fun, fastest, most economical, safest, most efficient? All in one vehicle? How's that possible? Two answers: Tesla's EV design from a clean sheet of paper, and with the benefit of everything that they learned on the Model S and X, Tesla simply hit the ball out the the park with the Model 3. There are simply so many innovations, from the minimalist interior to running all the operating systems through the touchscreen, to NFC card and Bluetooth smartphone control, that the car genuinely seems a collective work of genius.

What might keep it from being considered the best car anyone has ever made? Or even a smart choice in the marketplace right now?

1) Quality control issues, and far too many long delays, due to the painful transition from boutique to mainstream manufacturer, and a sluggish and insufficient ramp up of the service and parts supply infrastructure. The number 1 negative and knock on the Model 3.
2) Range anxiety. Still an issue, esp. on trips, and most esp. in the winter, where range can and does crater.
3) Quality of interior materials - clearly a step down from Mercedes, Lexus, BMW et al. in this price segment, even with the supposedly premium interior upgrades.
4) Occasional functional quirks, such as the admittedly funky wiper control interface.
4) Lingering anxiety about Tesla's long term viability? While recent profits for Q3/Q4 2018, China and Europe introductions of Model 3 and Gigafactory startups collectively all suggest that the future is secure, the ICE press continues to hammer every hiccup, misstep, and quasi-scandal to protect and promote the fossil fuel technology that is not only now technologically obsolete, but that is threatening to bring about climate change on a catastrophic scale.

What's the problem with emphasizing the negative, as Spinbackwards has done? For one, it's just not balanced as the above list makes clear, but more importantly, all the negatives emerge from the fact that Tesla is at the 'crumbling edge' of implementing - in a very short time period - a massively disruptive technology. It's simply unprecedented, what they have achieved in the space of a few years. Could they do better, esp around the #1 negative? Yup. And Tesla and Musk would agree.

If you can't see the Big Picture, you can't appreciate what Tesla has done here, or the collective design genius on display in the Model 3. It's that simple.

 

[leftyguitarman]

Kudos to @spinbackwards for starting a vigorous thread and energizing a debate about the pros and cons of the Model 3. I won't beat a dead horse around the wiper and summer and winter tire issues - those have been more than ably responded to, and there is also no debating the question of whether Tesla's service infrastructure is up to the task of servicing an output of 5k cars/week.

What I will say is that it took me a while to realize why I found his post troubling as a general statement from an early adopter. It seems to be a case of missing the forest for all the trees. How so? Let's really look at the TOTAL Pros and Cons of Model 3 (with a ready admission that my lack of experience with any QC problem introduces a relatively positive bias):

1) Best performing sports sedan (at least in DMP+ form), both in classic acceleration times (0-60, 1/4mi) and in more and more track-oriented testing results, easily besting the class leaders over the past several years (the BMW M3 and C 6.3 AMG), and even beating a Ferrari 458 on the Willow Springs Street circuit.
2) Most fuel efficient sedan, and tied with the Nissan Leaf for both city and highway mileage (MPGe), the Leaf being a much smaller and lighter car, suggesting therefore that the Model 3 is truly the most efficient car in the world.
3) Cheapest vehicle to actually own and operate? Definitive longer term data not yet available, but it is reasonable to assume that #2, combined with much lower maintenance costs (no oil changes, virtually no brake wear with proper driving, no transmission, and no engine maintenance), will reliably insure that its actual cost per mile is way lower than any comparable ICE vehicle. Depreciation and insurance costs of course are still operative, but daily/weekly/monthly cash outlays are way less, esp. if you can use free supercharging.
3) Safest sedan, winning outright NHSTA collision testing and achieving best score ever seen. Best passive safety complemented by some of the best active safety, if not the best, in terms of audible collision warnings, radar activated emergency braking assist, other vehicles in proximity being displayed on large touchscreen.
4) Best space utilization in class with highest interior volume and trunk space combined ever seen for a car 15 ft 5 inches long.
5) Most fun to drive? Hard to imagine a qualitative metric for this other than subjective user ratings, but I would bet the Model 3 would win this among all competing sedans.
6) Only sports sedan in class that will get significantly better over time, with ongoing and frequent over the air updates. These have included such things as the now famous "Track Mode," and several enhancements of cold weather operations, the release of better and more capable enhanced auto pilot, and other refinements of systems too numerous to mention.
7) Best radar guided cruise control/enhanced auto pilot - not far from fully autonomous driving capability.
8) Best charger network. This plus #7 mean that Tesla Model 3s are viable highway cars for long trips, despite this being a traditional knock on EVs.

Most fun, fastest, most economical, safest, most efficient? All in one vehicle? How's that possible? Two answers: Tesla's EV design from a clean sheet of paper, and with the benefit of everything that they learned on the Model S and X, Tesla simply hit the ball out the the park with the Model 3. There are simply so many innovations, from the minimalist interior to running all the operating systems through the touchscreen, to NFC card and Bluetooth smartphone control, that the car genuinely seems a collective work of genius.

What might keep it from being considered the best car anyone has ever made? Or even a smart choice in the marketplace right now?

1) Quality control issues, and far too many long delays, due to the painful transition from boutique to mainstream manufacturer, and a sluggish and insufficient ramp up of the service and parts supply infrastructure. The number 1 negative and knock on the Model 3.
2) Range anxiety. Still an issue, esp. on trips, and most esp. in the winter, where range can and does crater.
3) Quality of interior materials - clearly a step down from Mercedes, Lexus, BMW et al. in this price segment, even with the supposedly premium interior upgrades.
4) Occasional functional quirks, such as the admittedly funky wiper control interface.
4) Lingering anxiety about Tesla's long term viability? While recent profits for Q3/Q4 2018, China and Europe introductions of Model 3 and Gigafactory startups collectively all suggest that the future is secure, the ICE press continues to hammer every hiccup, misstep, and quasi-scandal to protect and promote the fossil fuel technology that is not only now technologically obsolete, but that is threatening to bring about climate change on a catastrophic scale.

What's the problem with emphasizing the negative, as Spinbackwards has done? For one, it's just not balanced as the above list makes clear, but more importantly, all the negatives emerge from the fact that Tesla is at the 'crumbling edge' of implementing - in a very short time period - a massively disruptive technology. It's simply unprecedented, what they have achieved in the space of a few years. Could they do better, esp around the #1 negative? Yup. And Tesla and Musk would agree.

If you can't see the Big Picture, you can't appreciate what Tesla has done here, or the collective design genius on display in the Model 3. It's that simple.

Agreed. I've put 30k on my Model 3 in 10 months. Most fun car I've ever driven? Probably not. My 1984 VW GTI was a hoot to drive (but noisy as hell and rough ride to say the least). Best car I've ever driven? Absolutely. The Model 3 has made me okay to not have a manual transmission (never thought that would happen) and I will NEVER buy an ICE vehicle again. Even getting rid of my Ducati and BMW motorcycles to buy electric.

 

[dfwatt]

Agreed. I've put 30k on my Model 3 in 10 months. Most fun car I've ever driven? Probably not. My 1984 VW GTI was a hoot to drive (but noisy as hell and rough ride to say the least). Best car I've ever driven? Absolutely. The Model 3 has made me okay to not have a manual transmission (never thought that would happen) and I will NEVER buy an ICE vehicle again. Even getting rid of my Ducati and BMW motorcycles to buy electric.

I've had a lot of fun cars and test-driven a lot of cars that might have been more fun but out of my budget including a couple of really nice Porsche Caymans, a recent generation Corvette and a couple of Ferraris. I've never had more fun than in a model 3 Performance version. The thing is just a rocketship off the line and what's so great about that is it's totally stealth, with no noise and not a trace of wheel spin ever. In other words you smoke comparably expensive ICE Vehicles (pun intended), but draw absolutely no attention. People have no concept of how fast you're accelerating because they don't hear anything. All of a sudden they realize you're 300 yards down the road. I love to see the expressions on their face when they pull up to the next light. It's like a large and reoccurring WTF!

 

[Tobyw]

Howdy,

I’m not posting here any longer.

I wanted to share one last post.

We have 14k miles on ours. I’m not sure we’ll buy another Tesla. We’ll see. Quite frankly if Audi caught up I’d look real hard at buying from them given our experience.

I’m still really sore about having to buy 18” wheels and new snow tires just to feel safe. My car with 20” wheels and snow tires just isn’t acceptable up here. And if anyone doesn't believe me, I'll put the wheels and tires back on and prove it. Good news is now that I have 18’s with Nokians, the car feels good.

Tesla makes blanket statements about its AWD that just aren’t true. The videos you see on the Internet, Tesla's in the snow, are about as useful as making a decision based on a snapshot in time. Who cares what a car does in a snowy field with no one around, or in the snow when there's not a car in the other lane on the highway going 60 when it's big time winter? Not me. No one else should, either. These videos are misleading.

The wipers not working is also a sore spot. It’s an expensive car. The Auto Wipers just don’t work. It pisses me off. And it’s dangerous, having to fiddle with the wipers in the snow.

AP up here is so-so. It’s fine as long as you’re not going around a bend with a car next to you. I don’t know. Maybe here in the mountains lane lines are narrower? I think Tesla also makes claims here as well, that are a stretch.

I think Tesla isn't doing anyone any good advertising that their cars get 310 miles range. It's misleading.

TACC works good. But new Subarus come with this same tech.

Last night at Copper Mountain was my first experience with the car handles being stuck. Luckily, not stuck to the point where the door wouldn't open. What were they thinking?

There's other things with the car that clearly show Tesla didn't do their homework, didn't spend near enough time testing in real world winter conditions.

All my issues being the case, I knew I was taking a chance. But I expected better. Still, I'm not selling the car. But I'm not sure I'd buy another Tesla.

Someone from here contacted me about buying a RWD 3. They said they plan on keeping their ICE AWD for snowy days. Here’s what I wrote to them.

Howdy,
There's a rumor Tesla is discontinuing the RWD version. So I'd be careful.

If you have a backup AWD, fine. But why not go for the AWD? I know it's more.

So are you fluent with EV's?

Do you get that the advertised range really isn't?

First, you never use 100% of the battery. So plan your range on using 80% of the battery. For the RWD, the real range (using 80%) is 211. Then discount it a little once the battery loses capacity. The battery will lose 5% of its capacity in the first year. Now your range is more like 200.

Then factor in cold weather, wind, and road conditions. In the cold (less than 35 degrees) battery range takes a hit. For example yesterday I drove back and forth to Copper Mountain. 112 miles total. I used 189 rated miles due to the cold and snowy roads. So I was using 1.7 rated miles for each mile I drove.

Same thing with wet roads and wind.

You should also know that Tesla just acquired a battery company, here's the link:
Tesla acquires ultracapacitor and battery manufacturer for over $200 million

What this means is that the battery storage and performance will surely increase -- soon. Probably not in the 019 model year, but for sure in the 020 model year. So you may want to wait.

There's also some other gotchas you should be aware of. If your car ever needs body work, it could take a few months. I have a small dent that needs to be fixed. I started looking for repairs in January. The soonest I could get in was late March. Some shops were booked until June. The reason why is Tesla's are hard for a body shop to work on.

Tesla's service is getting better. But it's been painfully bad. My experience has been just so-so with them. Calling them is getting better. It used to be a waste of time.

Some of the tech just doesn't work right. For example the Auto Wipers just don't work. Surely that'll be fixed with a software update one of these days. But it sure is frustrating.

We bought ours because we care about the environment. And, we needed a new car. I wasn't going to buy another ICE car. Would I buy another one? An EV, yes. But maybe not from Tesla. We'll see. While they do some things great, there's a lot not to like about them.

For example we bought the Performance+ version. The car is simply not safe with the stock 20" wheels and snow tires. I had to buy 18" wheels and new snow tires. It pissed me off. But now the car goes good in the snow.

Also. Where do you live? Can you charge at home? If not, then don't buy one.

Good news is that charging at home works out to being way less than gas. Last night I went 112 miles in the cold and snow. I used 30 kWh, which is worse case. That's less than $3 bucks in electricity. The same trip would have cost me at least $10 in gas.

Anything else I can help with let me know.

Peace and love,

Perhaps Tesla will have better ground clearance and tires with the new pickup truck line. Time to start ragging him in the winter when people can get stuck in snow and ice. Maybe Norway is a target development country. What do they do there in the snow? When are we going to see an electro-magnetic suspension? They can use bumps to act as generators, you know. My friend’s old S rides like a buckboard with four men in it, pickups ride great on bumpy roads, which are ALL roads in some parts of the country. A smooth riding pickup suspension could be used as a luxury car suspension if you turned the speed limiter down and added some longitudinal compliance to the suspension. Us old folks lose the need for speed. Elon needs to look into an association with Rolls, IMHO. Engineering, old patents, and a high end customer relations lesson is needed.

 

[Tobyw]

Agreed. I've put 30k on my Model 3 in 10 months. Most fun car I've ever driven? Probably not. My 1984 VW GTI was a hoot to drive (but noisy as hell and rough ride to say the least). Best car I've ever driven? Absolutely. The Model 3 has made me okay to not have a manual transmission (never thought that would happen) and I will NEVER buy an ICE vehicle again. Even getting rid of my Ducati and BMW motorcycles to buy electric.

Does Tesla do any development work including the customer??? Some say it is key to success.

 

[dfwatt]

Does Tesla do any development work including the customer??? Some say it is key to success.

From my understanding tons. They have typically had a whole lot of potential customers who are pulled into the development of all their cars. Starting with Market surveys and both in house and out of house beta testing with a lot of feedback from the testers about what they liked and didn't like. Then there's the ongoing research data collected from owner feedback during the first week and the first month. So yes I think they are very keenly interested in what users think. To behave otherwise is to commit suicide in virtually any area of high technology

 

[StealthP3D]

Most fun, fastest, most economical, safest, most efficient? All in one vehicle? How's that possible? Two answers: Tesla's EV design from a clean sheet of paper, and with the benefit of everything that they learned on the Model S and X, Tesla simply hit the ball out the the park with the Model 3. There are simply so many innovations, from the minimalist interior to running all the operating systems through the touchscreen, to NFC card and Bluetooth smartphone control, that the car genuinely seems a collective work of genius.

Well put. I definitely think it's the big picture that's missing from discussions in Internet forums. One thing that most car buyers don't give much thought to is the chassis. I think the basic structure of the Model 3 is really a break-through. Tesla wasn't afraid to spend a bit more to design a world-class chassis and the engineering that went into it was obviously focussed on creating a superior product. It shows up in two ways, the first of which you've already touched on:

1) Leading occupant safety in collisions. Nobody wants them or their loved ones to experience the trauma of a collision but, if it happens, it's nice to know the occupants are as well protected as anything out there.
2) A precision driving experience and a very solid feel, like the car is CNC'ed from a single piece of billet. A lot of American's don't seem to care if they're driving a flexi-flyer, a peice of junk that has subtle direction changes when the chassis is stressed from a bump or undulation. The Model 3 drives rock solid at normal street speeds.

If you can't see the Big Picture, you can't appreciate what Tesla has done here, or the collective design genius on display in the Model 3. It's that simple.

I've been on Internet car forums since they existed and one thing that always amazes me is how many people define/rate a car, not by how it feels and drives, but by what features it has. Oh, it doesn't have a rear hatch that is motorized and opens automatically when you wiggle your foot under the trunk? What a shame! LOL!

 

[lotusland]

If you can't see the Big Picture, you can't appreciate what Tesla has done here, or the collective design genius on display in the Model 3. It's that simple.

dfwatt, thank you for the post of the year!

 

[dfwatt]

dfwatt, thank you for the post of the year!

And thank you Lotus land for such a truly gracious comment!

 

[DrDabbles]

When are we going to see an electro-magnetic suspension?

You won't. magnetic suspensions are absurdly expensive.

They can use bumps to act as generators, you know.

The tiny amount of electricity a bump would generate is effectively uesless in an EV. The battery pack in one of these cars is the equivalent of 3 days of electric use in most houses in the US. A bump isn't even noticeable compared to that amount.

A smooth riding pickup suspension could be used as a luxury car suspension if you turned the speed limiter down and added some longitudinal compliance to the suspension.

I've thought about this for a while, and I can not figure out what you mean by speed limiter. Suspensions don't have speed limiters, so you must be talking about the speed limiter preventing the car from going over 155 MPH. But what does that have to do with a vehicle's suspension? I'm seriously confused.

Elon needs to look into an association with Rolls, IMHO.

Much more like Rolls needs to ask Tesla to help them put a battery pack and electric motors into their their vehicles. And since Rolls Royce is BMW, that isn't going to happen.

Engineering, old patents, and a high end customer relations lesson is needed.

Tesla has the engineering part. Old patents have little to do with making modern EVs, and any patents that are needed to make a semi-decent chassis have either become public domain, invalidated as an obvious technology, or every manufacturer pays the tiny licensing fee and moves on with life. Customer relations lessons from BMW? Eh. Tesla should probably start off with the basics like how to use a CRM system before they worry about copying anybody else's style.

 

[NewTMSMan]

Not just a local mechanic. A specialty shop that does nothing but high performance work. Either way, I'm over this. Think what you want, every source you listed called out some sort of road use condition and how street use doesn't generate temperatures high enough.

Just really curious if everything is installed properly what mechanical force do you think is causing "warped" discs ever under the heat conditions of race track use? The forging temperature for steel is over 2000 F, and even under track conditions brake rotors will barely exceed 1000 F temperature. So brake discs cannot warp due to a force applied unequally to a malleable material. How exactly, even under track conditions, are you claiming brake discs warp? Are you claiming the discs do not conduct heat from one side to the other and are under such unequal heat load (inside vs outside surface) that the deformation is being caused by this phenomena? That would also need to be localized to one portion of the disc to cause "warping". How exactly are you thinking this happens?

 

[EVDRVN]

Howdy,

I’m not posting here any longer.

I wanted to share one last post.

,

So you are no longer "supporting Tesla's mission statement" as you stated we all are in other threads? Seemingly you are jumping ship quickly over a poor equipment choice that could easily be solved. My guess is your experience with performance cars and wheels is very limited but you could have likely swapped your entire wheel package with another Tesla owner at a possible profit and been on your way. I'm also confident the car in the picture also has all sorts of restrictions the M3 does not. Since you are reading all these posts I would suggest trying some of the better advice you will likely get but there are simple solutions. Please don't be one of those people that goes from "Tesla is saving the world" to they have a terrible product. Reading your other posts makes it evident why you have this issue and why your "are not posting here anymore. My suggestion is accept the mistake and utilize one of the simple solutions and try not to make so many factually false statements.


Peace and love with geographically appropriate wheel and tire combinations..

 

[Knightshade]

You won't. magnetic suspensions are absurdly expensive.

They really aren't... you can get one included on a camaro SS for less out the door total vehicle cost than any LR Tesla model 3 for example.

It's part of a package that adds 20" wheels, a HUD, Recaro bucket seats, Brembo hi-po brakes, upgraded eLSD, performance tuned bushings and sway bars, rear spoiler, AND magnetic ride suspension.... all in a $7000 package.

So Tesla was getting $5000 for roughly the same thing WITHOUT the magnetic suspension or the better seats (or the HUD of course).

(and for 2019 the magnetic suspension will be available on the lower-model Camaro too so much cheaper than any model 3)


We already know they're planning to add air suspension to the 3, which is also "not cheap" but also less reliable and doesn't handle as well (it's nice for highway cruising though).

If the P had offered magnetic suspension I'd have been much more likely to have dropped the 11-16k on it

 

[dfwatt]

Just really curious if everything is installed properly what mechanical force do you think is causing "warped" discs ever under the heat conditions of race track use? The forging temperature for steel is over 2000 F, and even under track conditions brake rotors will barely exceed 1000 F temperature. So brake discs cannot warp due to a force applied unequally to a malleable material. How exactly, even under track conditions, are you claiming brake discs warp? Are you claiming the discs do not conduct heat from one side to the other and are under such unequal heat load (inside vs outside surface) that the deformation is being caused by this phenomena? That would also need to be localized to one portion of the disc to cause "warping". How exactly are you thinking this happens?

I think the term 'warping' here is probably somewhat misleading. More like pulsating break pedal. Here's my understanding of how this happens. If you start with a slight lack of uniformity in the friction characteristics of the disc such that some areas are ever so slightly 'grabbier' than other portions of the disk surface they will quickly and more differentially heat up and then expand over time and that way, just a minimal degree of early asymmetry in friction characteristics on the disc surface is magnified overtime through numerous iterations of heavy braking, and this turns a very small asymmetry that is too small to notice at first into a big asymmetry with more measurable consequences over a period of time. You do not need to get to an appreciable fraction of forging temperatures to create this kind of warping and brake bounce. Anyone who's ever done autocrossing or even minimal tracking of their car will tell you that this happens, particularly with cheap Chinese replacement discs, presumably because of greater than average differences in the crystalline structure of the steel.

Another telling aspect of this is that even after you true the discs to get rid of this brake bounce It seems to return more quickly than it did when the disc was new, suggesting that the steel has been somewhat altered at a micro structural level. How that works is beyond my paygrade but you could ask a metallurgist.

 

[Knightshade]

I think the term 'warping' here is probably somewhat misleading. More like pulsating break pedal. Here's my understanding of how this happens. If you start with a slight lack of uniformity in the friction characteristics of the disc such that some areas are ever so slightly 'grabbier' than other portions of the disk surface they will quickly and more differentially heat up and then expand over time and that way, just a minimal degree of early asymmetry in friction characteristics on the disc surface is magnified overtime through numerous iterations of heavy braking, and this turns a very small asymmetry that is too small to notice at first into a big asymmetry with more measurable consequences over a period of time. You do not need to get to an appreciable fraction of forging temperatures to create this kind of warping and brake bounce. Anyone who's ever done autocrossing or even minimal tracking of their car will tell you that this happens, particularly with cheap Chinese replacement discs, presumably because of greater than average differences in the crystalline structure of the steel.

None of that involves "warping" the disc itself in any way.

What you describe is, initially, caused by uneven pad transfer, and made worse by the hotspotting that uneven transfer can cause.

More on that in a second.

Another telling aspect of this is that even after you true the discs to get rid of this brake bounce It seems to return more quickly than it did when the disc was new, suggesting that the steel has been somewhat altered at a micro structural level. How that works is beyond my paygrade but you could ask a metallurgist.

Remember that hotspotting? The whitepaper goes on to explain what happens if you have uneven pad transfer and don't do anything about it and keep driving it hard.

It gets worse. Cast iron is an alloy of iron and silicon in solution interspersed with particles of carbon. At elevated temperatures, inclusions of carbides begin to form in the matrix. In the case of the brake disk, any uneven deposits - standing proud of the disc surface - become hotter than the surrounding metal. Every time that the leading edge of one of the deposits rotates into contact with the pad, the local temperature increases. When this local temperature reaches around 1200 or 1300 degrees F. the cast iron under the deposit begins to transform into cementite (an iron carbide in which three atoms of iron combine with one atom of carbon). Cementite is very hard, very abrasive and is a poor heat sink. If severe use continues the system will enter a self-defeating spiral - the amount and depth of the cementite increases with increasing temperature and so does the brake roughness

That's why if you allow the problem in the first place, and then don't immediately address it, it will continue getting worse- to the point that new discs are your only option.

But if you bed and use the brakes properly to begin with you avoid the issue entirely- and if that fails and you catch it early enough you can fix it if you catch it before cementite starts to form under you uneven deposits.

The whitepaper has an entire section on prevention and what to do if it just began to happen.


But the bottom line is, the disc itself does not "warp"

Here's the whitepaper again-

https://www.apcautotech.com/getmedi..._Whitepaper_B1-Warped-Brake-Disc-8-2018_1.pdf