M3 Performance Plus thoughts @ 14k miles

[NewTMSMan]

I think the term 'warping' here is probably somewhat misleading. More like pulsating break pedal. Here's my understanding of how this happens. If you start with a slight lack of uniformity in the friction characteristics of the disc such that some areas are ever so slightly 'grabbier' than other portions of the disk surface they will quickly and more differentially heat up and then expand over time and that way, just a minimal degree of early asymmetry in friction characteristics on the disc surface is magnified overtime through numerous iterations of heavy braking, and this turns a very small asymmetry that is too small to notice at first into a big asymmetry with more measurable consequences over a period of time. You do not need to get to an appreciable fraction of forging temperatures to create this kind of warping and brake bounce. Anyone who's ever done autocrossing or even minimal tracking of their car will tell you that this happens, particularly with cheap Chinese replacement discs, presumably because of greater than average differences in the crystalline structure of the steel.

Another telling aspect of this is that even after you true the discs to get rid of this brake bounce It seems to return more quickly than it did when the disc was new, suggesting that the steel has been somewhat altered at a micro structural level. How that works is beyond my paygrade but you could ask a metallurgist.

This is not warping, what you are describing is how more pad material is differential Lu deposited on one portion of the disc leading to a pulsating brake pedal feel. This is not warping of the disc itself where the thickness of the disc is uniform when measured, but when checked for trueness it is not true. In what you describe the thickness of the disc difference is what causes the pedal feel you are describing.

 

[dfwatt]

This is not warping, what you are describing is how more pad material is differential Lu deposited on one portion of the disc leading to a pulsating brake pedal feel. This is not warping of the disc itself where the thickness of the disc is uniform when measured, but when checked for trueness it is not true. In what you describe the thickness of the disc difference is what causes the pedal feel you are describing.

Not so. There is no pad material deposited on these disks. I've seen dozens and dozens of them on my own cars. Not an explanation. Perhaps you've seen that on your cars but I can assure you that's not an explanation here. Nor on cars that have been tracked where the rotor needs to be trued repeatedly.

 

[Knightshade]

Not so. There is no pad material deposited on these disks.

Of course there is.

The only disks with no pad material are brand new, unused, discs.

Pad transfer is a normal result of using brakes.

The problem comes only when it's uneven.

See again the technical whitepaper from Stoptech explaining how brakes actually work-

Friction is the mechanism that converts dynamic energy into heat. Just as there are two sorts of friction between the tire and the road surface (mechanical gripping of road surface irregularities by the elastic tire compound and transient molecular adhesion between the rubber and the road in which rubber is transferred to the road surface), so there are two very different sorts of braking friction - abrasive friction and adherent friction.

Abrasive friction involves the breaking of the crystalline bonds of both the pad material and the cast iron of the disc. The breaking of these bonds generates the heat of friction. In abrasive friction, the bonds between crystals of the pad material (and, to a lesser extent, the disc material) are permanently broken. The harder material wears the softer away (hopefully the disc wears the pad). Pads that function primarily by abrasion have a high wear rate and tend to fade at high temperatures. When these pads reach their effective temperature limit, they will transfer pad material onto the disc face in a random and uneven pattern. It is this "pick up" on the disc face that both causes the thickness variation measured by the technicians and the roughness or vibration under the brakes reported by the drivers.

With adherent friction, some of the pad material diffuses across the interface between the pad and the disc and forms a very thin, uniform layer of pad material on the surface of the disc. As the friction surfaces of both disc and pad then comprise basically the same material, material can now cross the interface in both directions and the bonds break and reform. In fact, with adherent friction between pad and disc, the bonds between pad material and the deposits on the disc are transient in nature - they are continually being broken and some of them are continually reforming. There is no such thing as pure abrasive or pure adherent friction in braking.

With many contemporary pad formulas, the pad material must be abrasive enough to keep the disc surface smooth and clean. As the material can cross the interface, the layer on the disc is constantly renewed and kept uniform - again until the temperature limit of the pad has been exceeded or if the pad and the disc have not been bedded-in completely or properly. In the latter case, if a uniform layer of pad material transferred onto the disc face has not been established during bedding or break-in, spot or uncontrolled transfer of the material can occur when operating at high temperatures. The organic and semi-metallic pads of the past were more abrasive than adherent and were severely temperature limited. All of the current generation of "metallic carbon", racing pads utilize mainly adherent technology as do many of the high end street car pads and they are temperature stable over a much higher range. Unfortunately, there is no free lunch and the ultra high temperature racing pads are ineffective at the low temperatures typically experienced in street use

(bold added for emphasis)



Seriously folks- read the whitepaper.

It's a dude who spent 40 years in vehicle and racing engineering, including racing work with John Cooper, Carol Shelby, and the Ford GT40 race program winning Le Mans several times- he saw, worked on, and used a lot more brakes, a lot harder than anyone here, and has the technical resources of a major brake manufacturer behind him giving you a solid tech dive into what people keep mistakenly calling "warped" discs.

 

[DrDabbles]

Just really curious if everything is installed properly what mechanical force do you think is causing "warped" discs ever under the heat conditions of race track use? The forging temperature for steel is over 2000 F, and even under track conditions brake rotors will barely exceed 1000 F temperature. So brake discs cannot warp due to a force applied unequally to a malleable material. How exactly, even under track conditions, are you claiming brake discs warp?

Asymmetric heating and cooling. Metal doesn't need to be heated to its forging temperature to fatigue or deform.

Are you claiming the discs do not conduct heat from one side to the other and are under such unequal heat load (inside vs outside surface) that the deformation is being caused by this phenomena? That would also need to be localized to one portion of the disc to cause "warping". How exactly are you thinking this happens?

We do know that heat doesn't conduct equally through an entire rotor and its hat, which is why floating rotors and two-piece rotors exist.

 

[DrDabbles]

They really aren't... you can get one included on a camaro SS for less out the door total vehicle cost than any LR Tesla model 3 for example.

What does the price of a Camaro versus the price of a Model 3 have to do with the component cost of magnetic suspension versus gas struts versus air suspension bladders? A cheap car is cheaper than an expensive car, ok. But the Camaro uses a $2000 ICE and the Tesla uses a $7000 battery pack plus electric motors.

It's part of a package that adds 20" wheels, a HUD, Recaro bucket seats, Brembo hi-po brakes, upgraded eLSD, performance tuned bushings and sway bars, rear spoiler, AND magnetic ride suspension.... all in a $7000 package.

Looking at OEM replacement parts here, the Camaro SS with FE6 performance suspension, to replace all four struts is $539.15. To replace the FE5 suspension (variable dampening) is $1,667.34. So just over 3x more expensive. How was I wrong to say magnetic controlled suspension is more expensive?

So Tesla was getting $5000 for roughly the same thing WITHOUT the magnetic suspension or the better seats (or the HUD of course).

That's not the cost of the part, though, is it. That's what they sold their performance upgrade package for.

(and for 2019 the magnetic suspension will be available on the lower-model Camaro too so much cheaper than any model 3)

Cheap cars are cheap, yep.

We already know they're planning to add air suspension to the 3, which is also "not cheap" but also less reliable and doesn't handle as well (it's nice for highway cruising though).

They're entirely different, so it's not actually a comparison I care to make. Air suspension can adjust ride height as well as damping. Ferromagnetic systems can only control damping. Even still, though, aftermarket air suspension kits for the Camaro SS are about $400 more than a full set of magride struts.

If the P had offered magnetic suspension I'd have been much more likely to have dropped the 11-16k on it

Ok. As it is, the suspension on the Performance 3 is pretty good. I don't see much of a reason to change the damping, but I also don't care. I'm really not sure what your purchase preference has to do with my statement that magnetic controlled suspension is more expensive. It is. Feel free to check any GM parts site, or an OEM parts retailer.

My numbers came from 2015 Chevy Camaro Replacement Suspension Parts - CARiD.com

I really don't know why we're talking about the Camaro SS. If you like it, that's fine. I'm not telling you what cars to like or not like. But it really has nothing at all to do with a Tesla.

 

[NewTMSMan]

Not so. There is no pad material deposited on these disks. I've seen dozens and dozens of them on my own cars. Not an explanation. Perhaps you've seen that on your cars but I can assure you that's not an explanation here. Nor on cars that have been tracked where the rotor needs to be trued repeatedly.

It's not just me, it's every single brake expert there is, just Google the topic and you will not find one expert in the field that thinks there is any such thing as warped rotors. What you have experienced is not a warped rotor.

 

[NewTMSMan]

We do know that heat doesn't conduct equally through an entire rotor and its hat, which is why floating rotors and two-piece rotors exist.

You are completely misunderstanding the benefits of floating rotors and two-piece discs. The first benefit is weight savings as the hat can be made from lighter material. Second they are designed to provide better heat dissipation because they use a higher heat conductivity material for the hat (i.e. aluminum) which then leads to the brakes running cooler under the same operating conditions. In addition the sliding two-piece disc allows for thermal expansion so the hat is not stressed, not because one side of the disc heats up differentially more than the other.

Sorry , but unless you can post one reference that is not a local speed shop saying "warped" rotors, there is no such thing. I could not find one reference to it actually existing.

 

[BillnKay]

Howdy,

I’m not posting here any longer.
Hit and run?

I’m still really sore about having to buy 18” wheels and new snow tires just to feel safe. My car with 20” wheels and snow tires just isn’t acceptable up here. And if anyone doesn't believe me, I'll put the wheels and tires back on and prove it. Good news is now that I have 18’s with Nokians, the car feels good.
You went with performance wheels and tires and don't feel that the were best in snow? Must of made a mistake

Tesla makes blanket statements about its AWD that just aren’t true. The videos you see on the Internet, Tesla's in the snow, are about as useful as making a decision based on a snapshot in time. Who cares what a car does in a snowy field with no one around, or in the snow when there's not a car in the other lane on the highway going 60 when it's big time winter? Not me. No one else should, either. These videos are misleading.
I hope that you aren't trying to use the autopilot on roads where the lines are marginal and the conditions are marginal

The wipers not working is also a sore spot. It’s an expensive car. The Auto Wipers just don’t work. It pisses me off. And it’s dangerous, having to fiddle with the wipers in the snow.
It's a personal thing, they work great for me, and they are expected to be changed in a not so distant upgrade

AP up here is so-so. It’s fine as long as you’re not going around a bend with a car next to you. I don’t know. Maybe here in the mountains lane lines are narrower? I think Tesla also makes claims here as well, that are a stretch.
Works quite well around here on narrow roads. It's nice that the car actually stays in the middle of the road. But hey, remember when you enabled it, it said that it was BETA software? It is constantly getting better.

I think Tesla isn't doing anyone any good advertising that their cars get 310 miles range. It's misleading.
That goes for every car out there. I've commonly got better than 310 miles range. Don't assume that winter is the best numbers, At least you don't need specifically tuned engines for high altitudes.

TACC works good. But new Subarus come with this same tech.
Subaru, Toyota, Nissan and others offer it as well.

Last night at Copper Mountain was my first experience with the car handles being stuck. Luckily, not stuck to the point where the door wouldn't open. What were they thinking?

Interesting concept. The Model 3 is the first car where the doors haven't opened with winter precipitation? I could have sworn I've driven other rental cars in cold areas where they stuck

There's other things with the car that clearly show Tesla didn't do their homework, didn't spend near enough time testing in real world winter conditions.
Sounds as if you may be a Subaru fan. They work hard to work in high altitude winters. But many other auto makers don't.

All my issues being the case, I knew I was taking a chance. But I expected better. Still, I'm not selling the car. But I'm not sure I'd buy another Tesla.

Someone from here contacted me about buying a RWD 3. They said they plan on keeping their ICE AWD for snowy days. Here’s what I wrote to them.

Howdy,
There's a rumor Tesla is discontinuing the RWD version. So I'd be careful.
No, not the case

If you have a backup AWD, fine. But why not go for the AWD? I know it's more.

So are you fluent with EV's?

Do you get that the advertised range really isn't?
Yes, like all cars, you may get better, you may get worse, and in colder temperatures, you can drop it by 30%. (still reach 310, but at a slower speed).

First, you never use 100% of the battery. So plan your range on using 80% of the battery. For the RWD, the real range (using 80%) is 211. Then discount it a little once the battery loses capacity. The battery will lose 5% of its capacity in the first year. Now your range is more like 200.
Pretty much like a gas car. And no, the battery doesn't loose 5% in the first year. I had a 2015 Leaf and it didn't loose that much in 3 years.

Then factor in cold weather, wind, and road conditions. In the cold (less than 35 degrees) battery range takes a hit. For example yesterday I drove back and forth to Copper Mountain. 112 miles total. I used 189 rated miles due to the cold and snowy roads. So I was using 1.7 rated miles for each mile I drove.
Pretty close to that 30% I just mentioned.

Same thing with wet roads and wind.
Not quite, but these impact any cars as well. Once you learn to stop focusing on the battery range and loose the "range anxiety" this pretty much becomes nothing to worry about. I honestly rarely drive the full range in a week, let alone a day.

You should also know that Tesla just acquired a battery company, here's the link:
Tesla acquires ultracapacitor and battery manufacturer for over $200 million

What this means is that the battery storage and performance will surely increase -- soon. Probably not in the 019 model year, but for sure in the 020 model year. So you may want to wait.
and wait, and wait, and wait. I assume that you've never bought a computer or a modern phone, because technology is getting better. Even batteries in phones and computers are getting better.

There's also some other gotchas you should be aware of. If your car ever needs body work, it could take a few months. I have a small dent that needs to be fixed. I started looking for repairs in January. The soonest I could get in was late March. Some shops were booked until June. The reason why is Tesla's are hard for a body shop to work on.
Same problem with most new to the market cars, inventories haven't caught up

Tesla's service is getting better. But it's been painfully bad. My experience has been just so-so with them. Calling them is getting better. It used to be a waste of time.

Some of the tech just doesn't work right. For example the Auto Wipers just don't work. Surely that'll be fixed with a software update one of these days. But it sure is frustrating.

We bought ours because we care about the environment. And, we needed a new car. I wasn't going to buy another ICE car. Would I buy another one? An EV, yes. But maybe not from Tesla. We'll see. While they do some things great, there's a lot not to like about them.

For example we bought the Performance+ version. The car is simply not safe with the stock 20" wheels and snow tires. I had to buy 18" wheels and new snow tires. It pissed me off. But now the car goes good in the snow.

Oh, okay, you just blew a lot of your range with your decision on car to buy. A performance and dual will definitely reduce your range. That's indeed something that Tesla tends to hide. But the reality is that even the P3D can hit 310, it's just a lot easier in the long rage single motor.

Also. Where do you live? Can you charge at home? If not, then don't buy one.
Is a 120V plug available? That satisfies the need of many people

Good news is that charging at home works out to being way less than gas. Last night I went 112 miles in the cold and snow. I used 30 kWh, which is worse case. That's less than $3 bucks in electricity. The same trip would have cost me at least $10 in gas.

Anything else I can help with let me know.

Peace and love,

I couldn't have said it better. Thanks

 

[Knightshade]

What does the price of a Camaro versus the price of a Model 3 have to do with the component cost of magnetic suspension versus gas struts versus air suspension bladders?

Because the option package that adds the magnetic suspension is only $2000 more than the similar package on a Model 3 that fails to add one


Camaro 1LE package gives you 20" wheels, upgraded sway bars/bushings, and a rear spoiler (same package Tesla was getting $5,000 for originally on the P)...and then also gives you magnetic suspension and racing seats and a HUD... for only 2k more than the Tesla package.


Thus disproving yet another baseless claim of yours- that magnetic suspension was some SUPER expensive technology.

Not sure where you got confused.

Looking at OEM replacement parts here, the Camaro SS with FE6 performance suspension, to replace all four struts is $539.15. To replace the FE5 suspension (variable dampening) is $1,667.34. So just over 3x more expensive. How was I wrong to say magnetic controlled suspension is more expensive?

Mainly because that's not quite what you actually said

You said

magnetic suspensions are absurdly expensive

An extra $1100 on a $50,000+ car isn't "absurd"

Your claim about how high the cost is though.

They're entirely different, so it's not actually a comparison I care to make.

Of course not, since it makes your argument look even sillier

Air suspension can adjust ride height as well as damping. Ferromagnetic systems can only control damping. Even still, though, aftermarket air suspension kits for the Camaro SS are about $400 more than a full set of magride struts.

Strangely, after claiming you didn't want to make the comparison, you not only did so, you did so in a way that proves my point.

Tesla is about to offer a more expensive suspension than magnetic on the 3.

Thus the suggestion someone might want the magnetic one- which offers better handling than both air and the stock 3 suspension- and is cheaper than air suspension isn't at all out of line.... unlike your baseless objection to the idea.

Ok. As it is, the suspension on the Performance 3 is pretty good. I don't see much of a reason to change the damping, but I also don't care.

Man- you're sure posted a lot about something you don't care about... (and also don't seem to know much about since your facts have been wrong pretty much across the board on both this and the brake stuff)

I'm really not sure what your purchase preference has to do with my statement that magnetic controlled suspension is more expensive.

Because, again, that's not what your actual statement was. See above the first several times you were called/corrected on what you actually said.

I really don't know why we're talking about the Camaro SS.

Because it was a good example of a car that not only offers trim levels with similar performance to the P3, it offers the exact option you were, wrongly, claiming way absurdly expensive

Again not sure where you got lost there...

 

[DrDabbles]

I think I get it now. You're lost. This is a Tesla forum. If you want to talk about Camaros, I'd suggest a GM forum.

Camaro 1LE package gives you 20" wheels, upgraded sway bars/bushings, and a rear spoiler (same package Tesla was getting $5,000 for originally on the P)...and then also gives you magnetic suspension and racing seats and a HUD... for only 2k more than the Tesla package.

And then you're still left with a Camaro. The only thing I think is worse than a Camaro is an expensive Camaro.

An extra $1100 on a $50,000+ car isn't "absurd"

You're talking relative to the cost of the car. That wasn't the question, otherwise I'd say "relative to the cost of the car". When compared to the non-megnetic suspension, it's 3x as expensive.

Tesla is about to offer a more expensive suspension than magnetic on the 3.

I've misplaced my pearls, so just imagine I'm clutching them.

Thus the suggestion someone might want the magnetic one

I'm not discussing whether someone would want it or not. I said it's much more expensive. It's 3x more expensive than normal struts.

Because it was a good example of a car that not only offers trim levels with similar performance to the P3, it offers the exact option you were, wrongly, claiming way absurdly expensive

...and it ended up being 3x the cost. So, I guess I was right.


I'm going to do myself a favor and just add you to my blocklist.

 

[Knightshade]

I think I get it now. You're lost. This is a Tesla forum. If you want to talk about Camaros, I'd suggest a GM forum.

I admire the tenacity with which you remain completely wrong about everything you post!

And then you're still left with a Camaro. The only thing I think is worse than a Camaro is an expensive Camaro.

Which has literally nothing to do with you being wrong about magnetic suspension being "absurbly" expensive regardless of which car it goes on.

You're talking relative to the cost of the car.

Well, no, I'm talking about the actual cost in dollars being quite small compared to other options on the car (or on the Tesla which has a package offering significantly less for most of the same cost)

That wasn't the question

Right- the question was "Is tomc603 wrong" and the answer is yes.

For $2000 more than Teslas "performance" package Chevy will sell you magnetic suspension and a HUD and better seats.

That's kind of the opposite of "absurdly expensive" as you, wrongly, claimed.

Where, specifically, is your train of thought derailing here?

When compared to the non-megnetic suspension, it's 3x as expensive.

Then I guess AWD is "INSANELY ABSURDLY" expensive since that option is 4x as expensive as magnetic suspension is over regular suspension from your own parts catalog, right?

Or maybe you're again making 0 sense and again moving goalposts to try and not be caught having no idea WTF you're talking about again?

I've misplaced my pearls, so just imagine I'm clutching them.

Again your reply appears to have literally no relevance to the actual discussion

The point was since people are apparently very happy to pay for air suspension, and don't consider that price absurd...and magnetic suspension is cheaper and offers better performance, your claim that the magnetic cost is "absurd" is demonstrably wrong.

Similar to all your other claims in the thread so far.

I'm not discussing whether someone would want it or not. I said it's much more expensive. It's 3x more expensive than normal struts.

Again, moving goalposts.

You originally said it's absurdly expensive.

It's not.

"ratio" isn't a useful measure out of context.

I mean a $6 bottle of wine is 3x more expensive than 2 buck chuck...but nobody would call a $6 bottle of wine "absurdly expensive" as you did with the shocks.

I'm going to do myself a favor and just add you to my blocklist.

If you add everyone who points out your posts are factually wrong to your blocklist you're eventually gonna see 0 posts here

 

[lotusland]

You two are making spinbackwards seem more rational with each added post. You're like Trump to his Bush.

 

[spinbackwards]

Good morning,

Where it’s spinbackwards @ altitude!

This peice is right on.
While Elon Musk Tweets Can Be Stupid, We Should Hope Tesla Succeeds

We bought the car because we care about Mother Earth.

My belief is that people, will have to find their way. They’ll either “Know where they stand and stand there”, as Daniel Berrigan wrote, or stand defeated.

I have hope. Hope that people learn from artists, historians, and those that came before us - the Native Americans, that super cool dude named Jesus.

Robert Swan said, “The greatest threat to our planet is the belief that someone else will save it”.

Lowell George wrote in Roll ‘Em Easy”:
"Well I been across this country
"From Denver to the ocean
"And I never met girls who could sing so sweet
"Like the angels that live in Houston
"...Singin' harmony
"In unison
"Sweet harmony
"Gotta hoist your flag and I'll beat your drum"

Margo Price wrote in Learning To Lose:
"And how many trails, have I gone down
"Followed easily
"Just to learn that I can't leave myself behind
"And the only devil I've ever seen was in the mirror
"And the only enemy I know is in my mind
"...And all the things I've had to do without
"Have been a blessing
"But sometimes a blessing is a curse in disguise”

Bonnie Raitt wrote in You Can’t Fail Me Now:
"Mercy's just a warning shot across the bow”

Don Henley and Glen Frey wrote in Desperado:
“You better let somebody love you
“Before it’s too late”

The Iroquois believe in living for the next 7 Generations.

Jesus talked of washing others feet, taking care of the earth, loving thy neighbor.

I’ve added two words to peace and love:

Peace. Love. Reverence. Justice.

 

[voip-ninja]

We bought the car because we care about Mother Earth.

By your own admission your previous cars were enormous gas hogs, even your car that the Model 3 just replaced which I believe you said was a chip tuned Audi A7 that produced something like 450+ horsepower. What kind of gas mileage did that get, 15mpg? 10?

So please save your sanctimony.

It's frightening that people like yourself that preach one thing and then do another are driving policy decisions in this country when you vote.

 

[spinbackwards]

By your own admission your previous cars were enormous gas hogs, even your car that the Model 3 just replaced which I believe you said was a chip tuned Audi A7 that produced something like 450+ horsepower. What kind of gas mileage did that get, 15mpg? 10?

So please save your sanctimony.

It's frightening that people like yourself that preach one thing and then do another are driving policy decisions in this country when you vote.

Here’s our solar:
solar is here to stay

Where’s yours?

 

[spinbackwards]

If all you want to do is fight, just say it.

 

[voip-ninja]

Here’s our solar:
solar is here to stay

Where’s yours?

Right here smart-guy

eGauge Center

I put solar in years ago because it made financial sense, not so I could lord it over people or use it to justify my choice to drive a gas hog.

Drive a gas hog if you want, but if you do then embrace it and stop barking about climate change because then you're a hypocrite.

 

[voip-ninja]

If all you want to do is fight, just say it.

LOL, yes I want to "fight" an aging hippy.

 

[voip-ninja]

Here’s our solar:
solar is here to stay

Where’s yours?

Here's one with balloon pictures.

 

[spinbackwards]

Fake news