MagicDock upgrade vs V4 dispensers

[fhteagle]

Does anyone know why Tesla is deploying MagicDocks into V3 dispensers instead of going straight to V4 dispensers? Is there something different with the physical base or wiring of the V3 vs V4 dispenser? Are V4's not going to get MagicDocks? Any chance older sites could go straight from V2 to V4 dispensers, even if they are still power limited to less than a full speed V4 ?

Not snarky questions, I am asking the above as genuine inquiries for my own education. Thanks.

 

[MP3Mike]

Tesla hasn't shared their plans, so we have no idea what they are going to do. We haven't seen a V4 with MagicDock...

I will say that I don't think Tesla has upgraded any V2 sites to V3. (It would really require a complete tear out and re-build, so they will probably leave V2s alone, and just add new V3, or V4, sites nearby when needed.)

What we do know is that Tesla made an agreement with the White House to open >3,500 V3 stalls to all CCS EVs. My guess is that is where MagicDock deployment will stop. If you want to use the other V3/V4 stalls you need to be driving a vehicle from a NACS partner with your own adapter.

 

[CapsEngineer]

I will say that I don't think Tesla has upgraded any V2 sites to V3. (It would really require a complete tear out and re-build, so they will probably leave V2s alone, and just add new V3, or V4, sites nearby when needed.)

They did tear out an 8 stall V2 in Greenville, AL and upgrade it to a 12 stall V3.

 

[Tam]

Does anyone know why Tesla is deploying MagicDocks into V3 dispensers instead of going straight to V4 dispensers?

Cost. V3 is cheaper than V4.

Is there something different with the physical base or wiring of the V3 vs V4 dispenser?

They may look very similar outside but different inside:

Are V4's not going to get MagicDocks?

V4 has started in Europe where all cars use the same standard so there's no need for Magic Dock over there.

It's unknown whether V4 will get Magic Dock in North America but logically, it should.

Any chance older sites could go straight from V2 to V4 dispensers, even if they are still power limited to less than a full speed V4 ?

That is not a technical problem.

If you have 4 old stalls, it might be more economical to add another 4 newer stalls for a total of 8 stalls rather than to convert 4 old into 4 new for a total access of 4 instead of 8.

It's better to get revenue from 4 old and 4 new for a total of 8 instead of just getting from only newly converted 4.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Does anyone know why Tesla is deploying MagicDocks into V3 dispensers instead of going straight to V4 dispensers?

My assumption is cost. I belive the MagicDock is a relatively cheap upgrade. The V3 Superchargers can talk CCS,

As a "400V" CCS EV owner, I welcome them. (Although with most of the Northern Maine, and Maritime Canada Superchargers being V2 it wouldn't help me as much as it might others.)

Is there something different with the physical base or wiring of the V3 vs V4 dispenser?

Yes. V4 will (ultimately) be capable of higher voltage charging. They also have longer cables to support more charge port positions. Plus they have included a small screen and contactless card reader in recent V4 installs in Europe. A card reader will be necessary for NEVI installs so we assume they'll all be V4.

Are V4's not going to get MagicDocks?

In North America V4's would still need MagicDock to support CCS, unless they installed separate stalls for CCS. I expect them to have MagicDock. It's "permanent" enough in the design to pass the rules.

Any chance older sites could go straight from V2 to V4 dispensers, even if they are still power limited to less than a full speed V4 ?

They could, but in almost all cases Tesla has left V2 sites intact and then expanded with V3s, or added a new site nearby.

Not snarky questions, I am asking the above as genuine inquiries for my own education. Thanks.

No snark detected.

 

[Rocky_H]

Does anyone know why Tesla is deploying MagicDocks into V3 dispensers instead of going straight to V4 dispensers? Is there something different with the physical base or wiring of the V3 vs V4 dispenser?

Well, your question is based on kind of a misunderstanding. V4 is not at all just a dispenser. The Magic Dock is for just making another physical end plug type available. But the V4 Supercharger is an entirely new system front to back. It's all different, including the big charging cabinets and control systems. The most obvious difference there I think is that the V4 Supercharger system supports the 1,000V architecture that the V3 Superchargers don't.

 

[Spaghett]

This is my totally wild guess, based on nothing other than personal opinion.

I don't think we'll see V4 dispensers rolled out in meaningful numbers in the US until at least halfway through 2024 or perhaps even closer to 2025, and I don't think they will have Magic Docks (or at least not in significant quantities). Why?

Reason 1: NEVI

I think the the motivation behind Magic Docks is more "getting NEVI awards for new chargers", and less "opening access to non-Tesla vehicles at existing chargers". I believe Tesla is using the initial roll out of Magic Docks to convince states that Magic Dock works well for the purpose of NEVI funding. For their NEVI awards, Tesla will want to build the stations sooner rather than later, using hardware they know and trust, which means V3 dispensers with Magic Docks. Once NACS automakers start making adapters available in 2024, Tesla can shift the cost of making existing V3 sites non-Tesla accessible from themselves having to pay for adding Magic Docks to existing V3 dispensers, to NACS automakers buying and giving adapters to their customers.

Reason 2: Cybertruck

The really big advantage of V4 dispensers is supposedly going to be the higher voltage support. In order to have a good charging experience, Cybertruck (supposedly), and cars from 800 volt automakers like Hyundai, Lucid, and others, need to have V4 dispensers.

Cybertruck is still not out yet though, and even if it makes it by end of 2023, we probably won't see large numbers until mid 2024 if not later. Therefore, from a Cybertruck point of view, Tesla still doesn't have a big motivation today to get V4 dispensers rolled out ASAP. Once they do have the Cybertruck motivation though, I think Tesla is going to want to keep their initial 800 volt capable dispensers more exclusively available for Cybertruck owners. Additionally, I think the Cybertruck motivation means we'll probably see the rollout of V4 dispensers be somewhat correlated with Cybertuck ramp up.

For the 800 volt automakers, we haven't seen any of them sign onto NACS (correct me if I'm wrong), but let's assume they do before 2025. In that case, I think they will just have to accept not having broad 800 volt Supercharger access more until 2025. If I had to guess, this is something they've already been told, and therefore are hemming and hawing about if or when they really want to switch to NACS.

 

[MP3Mike]

Reason 1: NEVI

I think the the motivation behind Magic Docks is more "getting NEVI awards for new chargers", and less "opening access to non-Tesla vehicles at existing chargers". I believe Tesla is using the initial roll out of Magic Docks to convince states that Magic Dock works well for the purpose of NEVI funding. For their NEVI awards, Tesla will want to build the stations sooner rather than later, using hardware they know and trust, which means V3 dispensers with Magic Docks. Once NACS automakers start making adapters available in 2024, Tesla can shift the cost of making existing V3 sites non-Tesla accessible from themselves having to pay for adding Magic Docks to existing V3 dispensers, to NACS automakers buying and giving adapters to their customers.

I don't think that is it. Tesla made an agreement with the White House to make >3,500 250kW stalls available to all CCS vehicles by the end of 2024. So, they will probably have MagicDock at about 400 sites. (There is rumor that the government is providing funding towards the retrofits, but I can't find any confirmation.)

Note: They also made an announcement with the Candian government to install MagicDock on ~350 V3 stalls by 2025. (So probably about 50 sites in Canada.)

Reason 2: Cybertruck

The really big advantage of V4 dispensers is supposedly going to be the higher voltage support. In order to have a good charging experience, Cybertruck (supposedly), and cars from 800 volt automakers like Hyundai, Lucid, and others, need to have V4 dispensers.

V4 is likely mainly about NEVI requirements. Things like ~800v support, payment terminal, etc. But the V4 posts they have been installing do not enable 800v support, you need V4 chargers for that, and none of them have been seen yet.

Cybertruck is still not out yet though, and even if it makes it by end of 2023, we probably won't see large numbers until mid 2024 if not later. Therefore, from a Cybertruck point of view, Tesla still doesn't have a big motivation today to get V4 dispensers rolled out ASAP.

Yes, Cybertruck will have an 800v battery, but what we have heard is that like GM, well the opposite of GM, they split the battery into two 400v batteries and then hook them in parallel to charge at 400v Superchargers. So Cybertruck won't have any problem pulling 250+kW from V3 chargers. (GM runs their battery as two parallel 400v batteries most of the time, but hooks the two halves in series when charging at an 800v+ charger to get the ~350kW charging speeds.)

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

This is my totally wild guess, based on nothing other than personal opinion.

I don't think we'll see V4 dispensers rolled out in meaningful numbers in the US until at least halfway through 2024 or perhaps even closer to 2025, and I don't think they will have Magic Docks (or at least not in significant quantities). Why?

Reason 1: NEVI

I think the the motivation behind Magic Docks is more "getting NEVI awards for new chargers", and less "opening access to non-Tesla vehicles at existing chargers". I believe Tesla is using the initial roll out of Magic Docks to convince states that Magic Dock works well for the purpose of NEVI funding. For their NEVI awards, Tesla will need to build the stations sooner rather than later, using hardware they know and trust, which means V3 dispensers with Magic Docks. Once NACS automakers start making adapters available in 2024, Tesla can shift the cost of making existing V3 sites non-Tesla accessible from themselves having to pay for adding Magic Docks to existing V3 dispensers, to NACS automakers buying and giving adapters to their customers.

V3 can't qualify for NEVI directly. The Federal rules for NEVI chargers require contactless card payment, which V3 doesn't have, but V4s now do have available. For V3 to qualify there would have to be an alternative device to handle the cards.

NEVI also requires payment via SMS or digital dialing.

The Federal rules are the minimum. States may impose _additional_ requirements. Either Federal or state rules require the higher Voltage capability as well.

I think that Tesla is opening up because of NEVI. My view is that they wanted to ensure that their plug was on NEVI chargers because the NEVI rules are what Electrify America _should_ have been made to do, including the crucial >97% uptime rule, and it has even more money than Dieselgate. The moat was shallower because of Electrify America, and it was going to be filled in, and the gates possibly smashed by NEVI.

Tesla is giving up its moat early to get the best possible outcome, which is widespread adoption of its connector and a bunch of NEVI funding. What V3 Magic Dock is doing already is helping to prove the adapter as an acceptable approach. The announcement of Tesla opening up existing Superchargers might have been part of a deal to be allowed to use Magic Dock for NEVI.

Reason 2: Cybertruck

The really big advantage of V4 dispensers is supposedly going to be the higher voltage support. In order to have a good charging experience, Cybertruck (supposedly), and cars from 800 volt automakers like Hyundai, Lucid, and others, need to have V4 dispensers.

Cybertruck is still not out yet though, and even if it makes it by end of 2023, we probably won't see large numbers until mid 2024 if not later. Therefore, from a Cybertruck point of view, Tesla still doesn't have a big motivation today to get V4 dispensers rolled out ASAP. Once they do have the Cybertruck motivation though, I think Tesla is going to want to keep their initial 800 volt capable dispensers more exclusively available for Cybertruck owners. Additionally, I think the Cybertruck motivation means we'll probably see the rollout of V4 dispensers be somewhat correlated with Cybertuck ramp up.

For the 800 volt automakers, we haven't seen any of them sign onto NACS (correct me if I'm wrong), but let's assume they do before 2025. In that case, I think they will just have to accept not having broad 800 volt Supercharger access more until 2025. If I had to guess, this is something they've already been told, and therefore are hemming and hawing about if or when they really want to switch to NACS.

You are correct, although it appears that HyunKia has been doing a photo shoot with their cars at Superchargers so it seems that it may be coming. They may have wanted some validation of the NACS 1000V version and for Tesla to work to resolve the slow DCFC issues for the IONIQ5, EV6 etc. Those cars use the inverter to be able to charge at 400V chargers and shouldn't charge as slowly as they do.

 

[Spaghett]

V3 can't qualify for NEVI directly. The Federal rules for NEVI chargers require contactless card payment, which V3 doesn't have, but V4s now do have available. For V3 to qualify there would have to be an alternative device to handle the cards.

Curse my brain for forgetting about the payment method requirements. This is a very good point that I totally forgot about and makes my entire NEVI paragraph moot, unless Tesla finds some way to add on payment terminals to V3 stations. While not an impossibility, I find it unlikely, though I could be wrong (just like in my previous post ).

 

[MLXXXp]

For the 800 volt automakers, we haven't seen any of them sign onto NACS (correct me if I'm wrong)

Hyundai/Kia/Genesis has now officially adopted NACS.

 

[Spaghett]

Hyundai/Kia/Genesis has now officially adopted NACS.

And not only that, today saw the first sighting of V4 dispensers in the USA: Supercharger - Wilsonville, OR (Under Construction Aug 2023, 8 V4 stalls)

As always, it seems the quickest way to be wrong (talking about myself right now) is to open your mouth and state your opinion.

 

[dgpcolorado]

^ Then there's the V4 install at Sparks NV:

Supercharger - Sparks, NV

Anybody recognize this part number? 1732843-01-C; ASY, SC POST, V4, NACS W MD, DISPLAY; Qty: 4; OPGF2C011127351 All the V3 posts are removed and looks like 8x V4 posts (with display?) are in boxes behind:

teslamotorsclub.com

Part number: 1732843-01-C; ASY, SC POST, V4, NACS W MD, DISPLAY; Qty: 4; OPGF2C011127351
"Supercharger Post, Version 4, NACS with Magic Dock, Display (for payment)"

This seems to answer some of the questions about V4.

 

[KJD]

Columbia SC looks to be a new V4 site.

https://x.com/TeslaCharging/status/1722739283034066973?s=20

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Columbia SC looks to be a new V4 site.

https://x.com/TeslaCharging/status/1722739283034066973?s=20

Yes, Columbia - Forest Dr, SC is V4.

Supercharger - Columbia, SC - Forest Drive

I went to look at it around dawn yesterday (Fri, Oct 21).It is encouraging that transformer is in place, since this can sometimes cause months of delay. Went by this afternoon couple people were working on the electrical system for the chargers and power washing the asphalt.

teslamotorsclub.com