Sounds like he is trying to set up China to take the blame for any recession
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Sounds like he is trying to set up China to take the blame for any recession
We haven't even yet seen the supposed retaliation against China promised via Twitter earlier this morning. Markets could be deep red by EOD.
The late Ev Dirksen was affectionately known as "Old Flannelmouth." With derision let's start a meme, "Old Vomit Mouth."
These American companies just need to announce massive layoffs and preparing people for price increases with possible shortages within a certain time frame.
Perhaps Trump will say something like "we don't need these American companies". Or maybe it'll tell Trump to STFU. His supporters may not care about him shooting someone on 5th avenue but they do care if they are unemployed and dealing with good shortages.
Perhaps Trump will say something like "we don't need these American companies". Or maybe it'll tell Trump to STFU. His supporters may not care about him shooting someone on 5th avenue but they do care if they are unemployed and dealing with good shortages.
I think Trump's vomitus is more in response to China's tariff announcement, but Powell's "something-for-everyone" speech probably didn't do his mood any favors.
So trump now thinks he can order company's to do business out of China?
Is this the new "free market republican" way?
Dow drops more than 400 points after Trump orders US companies to look for 'alternative to China'
Is this the new "free market republican" way?
Dow drops more than 400 points after Trump orders US companies to look for 'alternative to China'
Some economist should eventually measure the cost to stockholders of gyrations caused by Trump's tariff war. 25th amendment time, Pence?
Edit: I lost Stiglit's name, mind fart: Economist's View: Stiglitz and Bilmes: The True Cost of the Iraq War
EVNow
Well-Known Member
I disagree.
Dems should hold single topic debates - may be 3 or 4 of them. But I'm sure the establishment doesn't want to do that. Their favorite candidates will come out as hollow if they do.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
It is interesting how Trump is approaching this problem vs Dems (but not surprising).
Dems (Bernie in particular) fault large US companies of moving jobs overseas to boost profit. Trump faults "China". There is always a racial tinge to whatever Trump does.
BTW, "free market" has always been just a slogan. Even as US demanded free access to markets of developing countries, it pursued protectionist policies in areas where developing countries had advantages.
The United States Constitution mandates that revenue raising bills originate in the House of Representatives. That would include tariffs, which in the early days of the republic were the primary sources for revenues. Over a century ago during World War I, Congress ceded its obligation regarding tariffs to President Wilson. That has never been taken back.
Now President Trump has become dictator of tariffs. His tariffs have no connection to a shooting war as was the emergency case during WWI.
More properly, potential tariffs need to be first debated in Congress after receiving testimony in committees from businesses, farmers, consumers and economists. In most cases tariffs imposed on incoming foreign goods are counterproductive, infringe upon free trade, and are ultimately paid by American consumers. It is American importers who pay the tariffs to the US treasury, not foreign governments or manufacturers. The cost is then passed along the chain to US consumers. It also hurts investors.
Those who designed our Constitution insisted that tariffs be eliminated among the states, since free trade would be far more beneficial. The same would almost always be true in our trade relations with other countries.
You may want to contact those who represent you in Congress, and request that they reclaim their responsibility to determine tariffs. Then you might suggest that they abolish virtually all tariffs.
Now President Trump has become dictator of tariffs. His tariffs have no connection to a shooting war as was the emergency case during WWI.
More properly, potential tariffs need to be first debated in Congress after receiving testimony in committees from businesses, farmers, consumers and economists. In most cases tariffs imposed on incoming foreign goods are counterproductive, infringe upon free trade, and are ultimately paid by American consumers. It is American importers who pay the tariffs to the US treasury, not foreign governments or manufacturers. The cost is then passed along the chain to US consumers. It also hurts investors.
Those who designed our Constitution insisted that tariffs be eliminated among the states, since free trade would be far more beneficial. The same would almost always be true in our trade relations with other countries.
You may want to contact those who represent you in Congress, and request that they reclaim their responsibility to determine tariffs. Then you might suggest that they abolish virtually all tariffs.
Since 2016, I told my SO that I'd be willing to lose a good chunk of my assets to get the idiot out for the good of the country and the world.
If that happens, I'll be happy to live with my sacrifice. Not so happy cleaning up the aftermath though.
If that happens, I'll be happy to live with my sacrifice. Not so happy cleaning up the aftermath though.
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
I have, what I believe, is a unique perspective here that I would hope people might appreciate (but might not, who knows). I'm not an avid Trump supporter, so let's get that out of the way first. We can do far better than him.
I'm into my second career now, and run networks and data systems for many datacenters throughout the world. Our customer base is broad, but heavy with American companies in those datacenters. This IT infrastructure is always under attack, ALWAYS. It is not uniformly attacked, but is directed heavily at those companies with significant intellectual property and trade secrets.
In our experience, the intrusions and attempted intrusions that we track are most of the time traceable to Chinese actors. Sometimes the Russians, sometimes other parties, but the Chinese are BY AND FAR the statistically largest group of hack attempts we see on our US-based clients. These are very sophisticated attacks and not your garden variety bots, etc. aiming for low-hanging fruit. We have had companies we work with devastated by the theft of their IP. Many of these companies have come back to us and reported their manufacturing designs were replicated and proudly showed off by Chinese state-sponsored companies at international trade shows as little as 6 months after the IP theft.
Frustratingly, the international community has shown a MARKED lack of interest in enforcement for IP theft, and for better or worse this administration has taken it on itself to attempt to do something about it. I believe that this is the underlying reason why, that despite how much the Democrats absolute hate Trump, that you see the Democratic party and mainstream media pretty quiet on this issue. Quietly, they do believe what is going on, which causing short-term pain, is in the best interest of America and the American Economy in the long run.
That, and if you are going to pick a fight on this, now is the best time to do it in decades. Even with the "doldrums" of the current stock market, it is still up over the last 3 years much more than historical norms. In fact, it could drop all the way to 23,000, and still be in line with historically normal increases, and we would have to drop to below 19,000 for there to be a drop in the market since the beginning of this administration.
Again, I don't agree with this administration on many things (most?), but when it comes to how China is being handled, I am 100% behind what is going on. China is a bully that has shown they will not play by international rules of trade and I believe that they will respect nothing but a strong economic show of force.
I'm into my second career now, and run networks and data systems for many datacenters throughout the world. Our customer base is broad, but heavy with American companies in those datacenters. This IT infrastructure is always under attack, ALWAYS. It is not uniformly attacked, but is directed heavily at those companies with significant intellectual property and trade secrets.
In our experience, the intrusions and attempted intrusions that we track are most of the time traceable to Chinese actors. Sometimes the Russians, sometimes other parties, but the Chinese are BY AND FAR the statistically largest group of hack attempts we see on our US-based clients. These are very sophisticated attacks and not your garden variety bots, etc. aiming for low-hanging fruit. We have had companies we work with devastated by the theft of their IP. Many of these companies have come back to us and reported their manufacturing designs were replicated and proudly showed off by Chinese state-sponsored companies at international trade shows as little as 6 months after the IP theft.
Frustratingly, the international community has shown a MARKED lack of interest in enforcement for IP theft, and for better or worse this administration has taken it on itself to attempt to do something about it. I believe that this is the underlying reason why, that despite how much the Democrats absolute hate Trump, that you see the Democratic party and mainstream media pretty quiet on this issue. Quietly, they do believe what is going on, which causing short-term pain, is in the best interest of America and the American Economy in the long run.
That, and if you are going to pick a fight on this, now is the best time to do it in decades. Even with the "doldrums" of the current stock market, it is still up over the last 3 years much more than historical norms. In fact, it could drop all the way to 23,000, and still be in line with historically normal increases, and we would have to drop to below 19,000 for there to be a drop in the market since the beginning of this administration.
Again, I don't agree with this administration on many things (most?), but when it comes to how China is being handled, I am 100% behind what is going on. China is a bully that has shown they will not play by international rules of trade and I believe that they will respect nothing but a strong economic show of force.
And if his Tariff War results in a pre-election recession, he has invented a fall guy:
Trump asks who is bigger enemy, Fed Chair Powell or China's Xi? - Reuters
The democrats are being mum about this because they see a huge fallout coming, which will solve the Trump problem, and help with the Republican and China problems. But just because it's awesome for the dems does not mean it's good for the USA.
I hardly back anything Trump does because it's almost always stupidly executed. Either a bad idea stupidly executed, or a good idea stupidly executed. Bad execution of a better idea causes more damage than good execution of a worse idea. I believe the fallout in decades from Trump's doing will be far more damaging than what would have happened without him.
No one disagrees that China has pushed hard for IP and other areas. We *let* them because we're greedy and wanted access to their market. This isn't a western-hemisphere-is-blameless scenario. The money was worth it, so we went along with it.
As far as ethics go, what the US did for oil in Iraq over a decade ago hardly shows any moral superiority. We're just getting a small taste of what it feels like when someone else does it to us.
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If memory serves the Chinese were reported at start of negotiations "to talk about all of the then reported issues" including respect for patents. (Nothing about cyber warfare, however.) Total mismatch for Trump's known style. Cf "his" Art of the Deal, and subsequent interviews of the actual writing and Tony Schwartz' regret. Trump's actual style is to bully, double down, etc. Then sue or drain cash out of a casino, say, hide the money and declare bankruptcy leaving others to suffer actual losses. Today's losers are taxpayers, shareholders, consumers, and what good will we had for our country's reputation around the world.
Some of today's lunacy may be the beginning of his end as he seems to run out of patience with his own folly. It's been a long time since I've read the OSS (CIA predecessor) psycho-history of Hitler which was remarkably similar to Bruce Mazlish's of Nixon. As Nietzsche has said "The thought of suicide is a very comforting thought, one can get through many a rough night with it."
I think I'm beginning to understand the psychology of mass murderers. They try to set the cops up to do the deed for them. Few have the courage and intelligence to save their fortunes in order to frustrate their victims beyond the grave, as did Jeffrey Epstein.
The Grab 'em twins: Trump and Epstein are deviants separated at birth
Critics of Trump must steel themselves to maintain Lincoln's resolve after the civil war. "With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan—to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves, and with all nations." Abraham Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address - Wikisource, the free online library
The Democratic nominee must be the American Mandela.
Some of today's lunacy may be the beginning of his end as he seems to run out of patience with his own folly. It's been a long time since I've read the OSS (CIA predecessor) psycho-history of Hitler which was remarkably similar to Bruce Mazlish's of Nixon. As Nietzsche has said "The thought of suicide is a very comforting thought, one can get through many a rough night with it."
I think I'm beginning to understand the psychology of mass murderers. They try to set the cops up to do the deed for them. Few have the courage and intelligence to save their fortunes in order to frustrate their victims beyond the grave, as did Jeffrey Epstein.
The Grab 'em twins: Trump and Epstein are deviants separated at birth
Critics of Trump must steel themselves to maintain Lincoln's resolve after the civil war. "With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan—to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves, and with all nations." Abraham Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address - Wikisource, the free online library
The Democratic nominee must be the American Mandela.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
I think presidents & powerful men should be made to answer for their sins. We should start with Henry Kissinger.
There is the saying that a broken clock is right twice a day. Trump doesn't really have any IP anyone would want to steal and he doesn't care about anything anyone else has. His financial guru is Peter Navaro who is regarded as a crank by just about every other economist in the world.
The trade war is shaking things up with China and China has taken a haircut, but one of the things frustrating trade negotiators is nobody knows what Trump's victory conditions are. The trade negotiators come to the US and ask what the US wants, the US negotiators ask Trump and they never get an answer because he doesn't know. He likes conflict and wants to create more and more of it.
Hitler and Napoleon had the same problem. They were initially very successful, but they didn't have a goal at which they could say they won and be happy with their gains. Leaders who seized territory and succeeded knew when to stop. Trump isn't violent, but he wants to conquer a different type of territory, financial territory. But he doesn't have victory conditions. He wants to own everything and nothing short of that is enough.
Barr is a very toxic influence on Trump. There are a small handful of conservatives in the US who believe in the unitary executive theory. It's a model of government in which the president has unlimited powers and there were a few proponents when the constitution was being debated, but the bulk of the people involved were strongly opposed and the Constitution was written specifically to limit the power of everyone in government.
The unitary executive people seem to think that the Constitution was written by the few who lost the argument rather than those who won it and champion the idea that the president has unlimited power. Though only when a Republican is in the White House (I hate hypocrisy).
Clarence Thomas and Scalia are/were unitary executive types and Bill Barr is too. Barr has been feeding Trump's desires to own and control everything in an open feedback loop that is driving him to crazier and crazier ideas. His ordering businesses to stop doing business with China is the latest in his unitary executive wet dream.
I hope SCOTUS takes up at least one of these unitary executive cases soon and I am sure that it will be shot down. The liberal arm of the court is definitely not going to tolerate that BS, Roberts won't, and I suspect Gorsuch won't either. Alito can go either way and Kavenaugh is also a bit of a wild card.
International Emergency Economic Powers Act - Wikipedia Trump's trump card. An authoritative move. Freezing the assets and transactions dealing with Chinese companies/nationals. China will have a very hard time obtaining U.S. currency. Interesting times we live in.
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