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It's disruption and recession. The recession is overdue and it's coming. … A recession creates challenges for many people and it will create challenges for Tesla, but there is opportunity in a recession especially for those with cash. Assets can be bought more cheaply. Companies fail, creating market opportunities and asset purchase opportunities. Tesla is able to be more operationally flexible and to pounce on opportunity because they have Elon, and because they are non-union, and because of their $5 billion and potential opportunity to get more if key potential investors aren't hurt too badly in the recession. I wish they had more cash as we cannot know how deep or long the recession will be.

Rather than union/non-union, the more favorable factor is Tesla has none of the legacy welfare benefits that other auto manufacturers (OEMs) domestically and internationally have promised retirees/former employees over decades. (Much of that for GM and Chrysler was dumped on U.S. tax-payers in Obama's Troubled Asset Relief program.)

On the other hand, Tesla's debt to equity ration will be more problematic in hard times, particularly if you strip out Tesla's and the OEMs' debt related to in-house financing of new car purchases/leases.

$5 billion cash is insufficient to fund Tesla's promised growth in new products even if there is no recession; and, especially if there is a recession.

Economic cycles are real and inevitable--plan your investment positions to maximize the opportunities.
 
Obama era was limited due to the budget impasse, which limited infrastructure spending and incentives that could have improved growth..
Obama derided private enterprise at every opportunity. Private enterprise waited his administration out until there was a more receptive political environment to invest. More big government solves NADA, viz the VA and the Indian Health Service (etc. ad nauseum).
 
Much of that for GM and Chrysler was dumped on U.S. tax-payers in Obama's Troubled Asset Relief program.


“On December 19, George W. Bushannounced that he had approved the bailout plan, which would give loans of $17.4 billion to U.S. automakers GMand Chrysler, stating that under present economic conditions, "allowing the U.S. auto industry to collapse is not a responsible course of action."

Effects of the 2008–10 automotive industry crisis on the United States - Wikipedia
 
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“On December 19, George W. Bushannounced that he had approved the bailout plan, which would give loans of $17.4 billion to U.S. automakers GMand Chrysler, stating that under present economic conditions, "allowing the U.S. auto industry to collapse is not a responsible course of action."

Effects of the 2008–10 automotive industry crisis on the United States - Wikipedia

On February 18, 2009, General Motors and Chrysler again approached the U.S. government, in regard to obtaining a second bridging loan of $21.6 billion (£15.2 billion). $16.6 billion of this would go to General Motors, while Chrysler would take $5 billion. General Motors agreed to shed 47,000 jobs, close five plants, and axe 12 car models. Chrysler agreed to cut 3,000 jobs, cut one shift from production, and axe three car models.[87] General Motors was also looking to sell its Swedish subsidiary, Saab. GM made no mention of plans for its German subsidiary, Opel, or its British subsidiary,
 
On February 18, 2009, General Motors and Chrysler again approached the U.S. government, in regard to obtaining a second bridging loan of $21.6 billion (£15.2 billion). $16.6 billion of this would go to General Motors, while Chrysler would take $5 billion. General Motors agreed to shed 47,000 jobs, close five plants, and axe 12 car models. Chrysler agreed to cut 3,000 jobs, cut one shift from production, and axe three car models.[87] General Motors was also looking to sell its Swedish subsidiary, Saab. GM made no mention of plans for its German subsidiary, Opel, or its British subsidiary,

Point being, BUSH started the process.
 
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Rather than union/non-union, the more favorable factor is Tesla has none of the legacy welfare benefits that other auto manufacturers (OEMs) domestically and internationally have promised retirees/former employees over decades. (Much of that for GM and Chrysler was dumped on U.S. tax-payers in Obama's Troubled Asset Relief program.)
False. The two companies dumped their pension obligations by declaring bankruptcy, which happened before Obama was elected.
 
Obama derided private enterprise at every opportunity. Private enterprise waited his administration out until there was a more receptive political environment to invest. More big government solves NADA, viz the VA and the Indian Health Service (etc. ad nauseum).

Really? Everything I saw and experienced was quite the opposite.

The company I work for makes test equipment for the integrated circuit industry and they barely made it through the 2008 crash but capital investment by corporations was so high by 2010 they had 6 years of booming business. The company expanded staff 100% and still couldn't keep up with orders. Then in 2017 the bottom fell out of the market, especially international sales because of the trade war. I took a 25% cut in income last fall because of it and I'm one of the lucky ones.
 
@wdolson - I believe you have been championing the thesis suggesting the forthcoming disintegration of the GOP in many, many posts.

I do NOT disagree. The Strange Bedfellows that are, inter alia, (many) corporate leaders, fundamentalist religious stalwarts, financially stressed blue collar workers and many more do not make for a stable political force.

BUT - do you not think that the Democratic Party likewise is given to ructions? If we take only that minuscule sampling that are the two dozen-odd Presidential candidates, there really is very little they have in common other than a burning belief that the country need be rescued from the ravages of #45. I believe that in just about any other era, in any other country, those who call themselves Democrats long since would have been split into as many as a half-dozen parties with very different outlooks and priorities.

Discuss?
 
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I believe that in just about any other era, in any other country, those who call 5emselves Democrats long since would have been split into as many as a half-dozen parties with very different outlooks and priorities.

Discuss?
There are 2 or 3 types of Dems.

Progressives who believe in both social and economic justice. Neoliberals, who are basically moderate Republicans and those who just want to milk POC votes using identity politics. The last two groups are more or less indistinguishable and have forged a partnership.

I think rest of the differences are mainly personality oriented, not purely ideological. Progressives for eg. don’t trust Warren because of her support for a Fascist regime in Israel or because she didn’t support Bernie in ‘16 or any number of other things.

I consider everyone else (apart from Bernie and Warren) unreliable political identity warriors or neoliberals.
 
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I think Warren is capable of realizing her mistakes and adapting. (Last time I wasn't sure Sanders would beat Trump and thought the "safe" bet was Clinton. Oops.) Most Progressives I know would be quite happy with either Sanders or Warren. Though there are many candidates it's really just a struggle between moving the party back towards the progressiveness of the 60's and 70's or continuing with the move towards the right. In this election at least the party is united around the goal of removing Trump.
 
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False. The two companies dumped their pension obligations by declaring bankruptcy, which happened before Obama was elected.
Obama was elected in November 2008 and assumed the office in January, 2009.
GM filed for bankruptcy on June 1, 2009; Chrysler filed on April 30, 2009.

Dubya started the process of imposing those legacy welfare costs on taxpayers but essentially punted to his successor. Rattner, an Obama appointee, oversaw the execution of the scheme.
 
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I think Warren is capable of realizing her mistakes and adapting.
I think she is genuinely not interested in social equality issues. This extends to foreign affairs where it gets very dangerous. She has routinely voted to increase military spending for eg.

BTW, for all her "native American" roots, she said precisely little about Standing Rock.

Anyway, I agree most progressives would vote for Sanders or Warren. Most democrats would vote for anyone who gets the nomination (just like most Republicans voted for Trump).
 
Obama was elected in November 2008 and assumed the office in January, 2009.
GM filed for bankruptcy on June 1, 2009; Chrysler filed on April 30, 2009.

Dubya started the process of imposing those legacy welfare costs on taxpayers but essentially punted to his successor. Rattner, an Obama appointee, oversaw the execution of the scheme.

It would sure be great if you actually read what happened leading up to that bankruptcy, the dates of those meetings, etc before placing the blame on Obama.

Start here....

General Motors Chapter 11 reorganization - Wikipedia
 
@wdolson - I believe you have been championing the thesis suggesting the forthcoming disintegration of the GOP in many, many posts.

I do NOT disagree. The Strange Bedfellows that are, inter alia, (many) corporate leaders, fundamentalist religious stalwarts, financially stressed blue collar workers and many more do not make for a stable political force.

BUT - do you not think that the Democratic Party likewise is given to ructions? If we take only that minuscule sampling that are the two dozen-odd Presidential candidates, there really is very little they have in common other than a burning belief that the country need be rescued from the ravages of #45. I believe that in just about any other era, in any other country, those who call themselves Democrats long since would have been split into as many as a half-dozen parties with very different outlooks and priorities.

Discuss?

The two parties have very different culture. Over the last 25 years the Republicans have become increasingly rigid. They are run as a hierarchical organization where the leaders can't be questioned much. I've heard from people who know many GOP senators that they loathe Trump almost en masse, but are afraid to speak up. The punishment for trying to point out the problems in the party is to be cast out. When the party loses a major election the conclusion is always that they weren't ideologically pure enough rather than a majority of the American public is not interested in what they are selling.

Over the last 25 years the Republicans have expelled some of their best thinkers for asking too many questions. They have made a virtue out of being an idiot.

The Democrats have a very different culture. Many Mediterranean cultures have large noisy families where family get togethers can look like one big fight, but at the end of the day or when things need to get done, they band together. The Democrats are like that. Look at how quickly they have pivoted to attack Trump or other Republicans when they have tried to insert themselves into Democratic arguments. When Trump attacked Kamla Harris, even Joe Biden who had just been called out by her in a debate came to her defense. Nancy Pelosi came to the defense of the Squad when they attacked even though she has had some disputes with them.

The Democrats are having some vigorous debates about policy in the primaries, but even though it gets heated at times, everyone stays away from personal attacks and they all make it clear they will fully back whoever wins the nomination.

The media carried on the false equivalency of the parties for so long many people think whatever is going on in one party is also happening in the other. The Republicans have pretty much unilaterally ended bipartisanship in the US. The media has pitched it as a mutual thing, but it really isn't. During the ACA debates the Democrats tried to be bipartisan, but gave up when it became clear the Republicans just wanted to screw with the process and not get anything done. The Democrats rarely reach across the aisle anymore because the Republicans slap it away, not because of any ideological thing going on in both parties.

As the Republicans have become more rigid and ideologically narrow the Democrats have actually become a broader tent. The extreme left has become more of a voice and the party has taken on refugees from the more progressive end of the Republican party. It's an almost impossibly wide span to keep together and if a new moderately conservative party comes along with legs the more conservative members of the Democratic coalition will probably migrate. But for now they need to sort out how they are going to handle such a broad coalition and the diversity in the presidential race is a sign of this.

For Republicans differences of views means the other guy is "evil", but that isn't the case with Democrats. Democrats, like most people used to be, can disagree with one another on policy ideas and still be friends and still cooperate in other areas. Compromise is dead among Republicans, but it is still a living concept among Democrats. The family might yell at one another across the table at dinner, but when the rubber hits the road, they will be united because even if they disagree with one another on some things, they ultimately respect one another and in many cases actually like one another.

The human mind is an amazingly malliable pile of cells.

Bush approves $17.4 billion auto bailout

Obama basically went along with the plan already started by Bush.

I think she is genuinely not interested in social equality issues. This extends to foreign affairs where it gets very dangerous. She has routinely voted to increase military spending for eg.

BTW, for all her "native American" roots, she said precisely little about Standing Rock.

Anyway, I agree most progressives would vote for Sanders or Warren. Most democrats would vote for anyone who gets the nomination (just like most Republicans voted for Trump).

A lot of independents and even some Republicans would vote for any Democrat they thought reasonable. It's why Biden wins the national matchup polls by the biggest margin. But the fact that Bernie also does well shows that a lot of it is name recognition.
 
A lot of independents and even some Republicans would vote for any Democrat they thought reasonable. It's why Biden wins the national matchup polls by the biggest margin. But the fact that Bernie also does well shows that a lot of it is name recognition.
Most Independents align with Democrats ideologically. Most Dems will vote for the nominee.

RCP average today is :

Biden - 30%
Warren - 17%
Sanders - 16%
Harris - 8%

But, lead over Trump is (using latest poll) :

Biden - 12%
Warren - 7%
Sanders - 9%
Harris - 6%

So, much smaller difference in the general compared to primary. That 3% difference between Sanders and Biden is meaningless 15 months before the general election.
 
The two parties have very different culture. Over the last 25 years the Republicans have become increasingly rigid. They are run as a hierarchical organization where the leaders can't be questioned much. I've heard from people who know many GOP senators that they loathe Trump almost en masse, but are afraid to speak up. The punishment for trying to point out the problems in the party is to be cast out. When the party loses a major election the conclusion is always that they weren't ideologically pure enough rather than a majority of the American public is not interested in what they are selling.

Over the last 25 years the Republicans have expelled some of their best thinkers for asking too many questions. They have made a virtue out of being an idiot.

The Democrats have a very different culture. Many Mediterranean cultures have large noisy families where family get togethers can look like one big fight, but at the end of the day or when things need to get done, they band together. The Democrats are like that. Look at how quickly they have pivoted to attack Trump or other Republicans when they have tried to insert themselves into Democratic arguments. When Trump attacked Kamla Harris, even Joe Biden who had just been called out by her in a debate came to her defense. Nancy Pelosi came to the defense of the Squad when they attacked even though she has had some disputes with them.

The Democrats are having some vigorous debates about policy in the primaries, but even though it gets heated at times, everyone stays away from personal attacks and they all make it clear they will fully back whoever wins the nomination.

The media carried on the false equivalency of the parties for so long many people think whatever is going on in one party is also happening in the other. The Republicans have pretty much unilaterally ended bipartisanship in the US. The media has pitched it as a mutual thing, but it really isn't. During the ACA debates the Democrats tried to be bipartisan, but gave up when it became clear the Republicans just wanted to screw with the process and not get anything done. The Democrats rarely reach across the aisle anymore because the Republicans slap it away, not because of any ideological thing going on in both parties.

As the Republicans have become more rigid and ideologically narrow the Democrats have actually become a broader tent. The extreme left has become more of a voice and the party has taken on refugees from the more progressive end of the Republican party. It's an almost impossibly wide span to keep together and if a new moderately conservative party comes along with legs the more conservative members of the Democratic coalition will probably migrate. But for now they need to sort out how they are going to handle such a broad coalition and the diversity in the presidential race is a sign of this.

For Republicans differences of views means the other guy is "evil", but that isn't the case with Democrats. Democrats, like most people used to be, can disagree with one another on policy ideas and still be friends and still cooperate in other areas. Compromise is dead among Republicans, but it is still a living concept among Democrats. The family might yell at one another across the table at dinner, but when the rubber hits the road, they will be united because even if they disagree with one another on some things, they ultimately respect one another and in many cases actually like one another.



Obama basically went along with the plan already started by Bush.



A lot of independents and even some Republicans would vote for any Democrat they thought reasonable. It's why Biden wins the national matchup polls by the biggest margin. But the fact that Bernie also does well shows that a lot of it is name recognition.

Wise.
 
The two parties have very different culture. Over the last 25 years the Republicans have become increasingly rigid. They are run as a hierarchical organization where the leaders can't be questioned much. I've heard from people who know many GOP senators that they loathe Trump almost en masse, but are afraid to speak up. The punishment for trying to point out the problems in the party is to be cast out. When the party loses a major election the conclusion is always that they weren't ideologically pure enough rather than a majority of the American public is not interested in what they are selling.

Over the last 25 years the Republicans have expelled some of their best thinkers for asking too many questions. They have made a virtue out of being an idiot.

The Democrats have a very different culture. Many Mediterranean cultures have large noisy families where family get togethers can look like one big fight, but at the end of the day or when things need to get done, they band together. The Democrats are like that. Look at how quickly they have pivoted to attack Trump or other Republicans when they have tried to insert themselves into Democratic arguments. When Trump attacked Kamla Harris, even Joe Biden who had just been called out by her in a debate came to her defense. Nancy Pelosi came to the defense of the Squad when they attacked even though she has had some disputes with them.

The Democrats are having some vigorous debates about policy in the primaries, but even though it gets heated at times, everyone stays away from personal attacks and they all make it clear they will fully back whoever wins the nomination.

The media carried on the false equivalency of the parties for so long many people think whatever is going on in one party is also happening in the other. The Republicans have pretty much unilaterally ended bipartisanship in the US. The media has pitched it as a mutual thing, but it really isn't. During the ACA debates the Democrats tried to be bipartisan, but gave up when it became clear the Republicans just wanted to screw with the process and not get anything done. The Democrats rarely reach across the aisle anymore because the Republicans slap it away, not because of any ideological thing going on in both parties.

As the Republicans have become more rigid and ideologically narrow the Democrats have actually become a broader tent. The extreme left has become more of a voice and the party has taken on refugees from the more progressive end of the Republican party. It's an almost impossibly wide span to keep together and if a new moderately conservative party comes along with legs the more conservative members of the Democratic coalition will probably migrate. But for now they need to sort out how they are going to handle such a broad coalition and the diversity in the presidential race is a sign of this.

For Republicans differences of views means the other guy is "evil", but that isn't the case with Democrats. Democrats, like most people used to be, can disagree with one another on policy ideas and still be friends and still cooperate in other areas. Compromise is dead among Republicans, but it is still a living concept among Democrats. The family might yell at one another across the table at dinner, but when the rubber hits the road, they will be united because even if they disagree with one another on some things, they ultimately respect one another and in many cases actually like one another.



Obama basically went along with the plan already started by Bush.



A lot of independents and even some Republicans would vote for any Democrat they thought reasonable. It's why Biden wins the national matchup polls by the biggest margin. But the fact that Bernie also does well shows that a lot of it is name recognition.
I agree, in part. I correctly thought you would be up to the task of expounding upon that.

I know two Republican Senators well enough to be able to talk of them. One is a classmate, and has been ranked as one of the very most bipartisan Senators of the past several Congresses; the other is one of our “own” two, and who has stayed with us twice and was nice enough (and ever politically savvy enough) to send us a marvelous wedding congratulatory. BOTH of these otherwise responsible solons have bent the knee before #45, as unpleasant as it is to relate...but both of them revile him and everything he appears to stand for. With allies like that, who needs enemies? I relate this as a suggestion that whenever it is that the tide turns against #45, it is going to be merciless in its swiftness.
 
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