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Sadly, I agree with you. The only thing worse than voting for Biden is NOT, since spreading our votes to an independent candidate will only serve to give Trump enough of the votes to win the electoral college. It would be 2016 all over again if that happened.

On the one hand, I wish to participate in change through discussion, but on the other, I think amongst all the earnest people on this thread, we can't seem to agree on how to "fix things"! Everyone has different ideas about what's best for the country, or just their little part of it. 40 years of Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, and now Trump has only shown that those who believe in compromise will eventually be marginalized and drowned out. Thus, the "no Trump" stance that some of us (myself included) has taken, is the only solution, effectively proving that compromise isn't a solution! It's oxymoronic that the very people who value compromise, must NOT compromise to get their results.

Perhaps its time to shift more governance back to the states? Limit the federal government's responsibility to national defense and maintaining a common currency? Perhaps we've overlooked the wisdom of the founding fathers for too long and have given the central government too much control? This all came about slowly and organically, so would it even be possible to undo?

The COVID-19 situation is showing the weakness of all the states go it alone. All the states are competing against one another for medical supplies and it has created chaos and profiteering in that industry. Governors across the country have been calling on the feds to step in and bring order to this mess, but Trump refuses to do anything constructive.

Teddy Roosevelt and his successor William Taft and Franklin Roosevelt a generation later were effective in clipping the wings of the corporate thieves who were robbing the country and people blind. But they were only able to do it because a large chunk of the population were on their side. The freebooters rely on people fighting with one another instead of fighting them, so they encourage division. Dividing further would just make them stronger.

What we need is a unifying figure like one of the Roosevelts that would breakdown the divisions and give that figure the political power to reign in the freebooters.

The old "united we stand, divided we fall" thing.
 
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The COVID-19 situation is showing the weakness of all the states go it alone. All the states are competing against one another for medical supplies and it has created chaos and profiteering in that industry. Governors across the country have been calling on the feds to step in and bring order to this mess, but Trump refuses to do anything constructive.

Teddy Roosevelt and his successor William Taft and Franklin Roosevelt a generation later were effective in clipping the wings of the corporate thieves who were robbing the country and people blind. But they were only able to do it because a large chunk of the population were on their side. The freebooters rely on people fighting with one another instead of fighting them, so they encourage division. Dividing further would just make them stronger.

What we need is a unifying figure like one of the Roosevelts that would breakdown the divisions and give that figure the political power to reign in the freebooters.

The old "united we stand, divided we fall" thing.

The problem is who are we united against? After the fall of the USSR, there was no longer a common enemy to rally behind. Teddy Roosevelt presided over a country that just came out of the Spanish American War, while Franklin presided during WW2. There were clearly identifiable "us vs. them".

And times were different then. Those corporate thieves at least understood what being "under oath" meant. The current president lies constantly and isn't censored for it. It's the populace themselves that are supporting the narcissist in chief!

How do you expect us to unite, when the enemy is literally the other half of the nation? Congress used to compromise to get things done, but time and time again, the compromises kept moving further and further right, to the point that a congressmen had to threaten to stall the emergency stimulus bill because some were trying to REMOVE the provision to send money directly to american citizens! Why was that even a bargaining chip?!?! That line-item should've been a fait-accompli!

As far as COVID-19 is concerned, I see the opposite. The states with actual leaders are cooperating and helping each other and advancing the battle. The ones with governors that deferred to the federal government are the ones dragging their feet and endangering the lives of their citizens.
 
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The problem is who are we united against? After the fall of the USSR, there was no longer a common enemy to rally behind. Teddy Roosevelt presided over a country that just came out of the Spanish American War, while Franklin presided during WW2. There were clearly identifiable "us vs. them".

Nixon did say that the US would rip itself apart if we didn't have the USSR to oppose.

The Spanish American War was not really the big issue with Teddy Roosevelt's popularity. The Republicans made him VP to shut him up and then McKinley was killed and TR became president. TR was very popular because he was speaking out against the trusts that were strangling the US economy. The martyrdom factor of McKinley's assassination helped solidify TR's mandate, but it was also his overall popularity.

In FDR's case, he became president 8 years before Pearl Harbor and did most of his changes to put corporate power in check before the war started. He was swept into power by the Great Depression.

In both cases these presidents successfully blamed corporate power for the problems in the country and united the country against them.

And times were different then. Those corporate thieves at least understood what being "under oath" meant. The current president lies constantly and isn't censored for it. It's the populace themselves that are supporting the narcissist in chief!

How do you expect us to unite, when the enemy is literally the other half of the nation? Congress used to compromise to get things done, but time and time again, the compromises kept moving further and further right, to the point that a congressmen had to threaten to stall the emergency stimulus bill because some were trying to REMOVE the provision to send money directly to american citizens! Why was that even a bargaining chip?!?! That line-item should've been a fait-accompli!

As far as COVID-19 is concerned, I see the opposite. The states with actual leaders are cooperating and helping each other and advancing the battle. The ones with governors that deferred to the federal government are the ones dragging their feet and endangering the lives of their citizens.

Some states are doing a marvelous job trying to protect their citizens, but the job is being made significantly more difficult by the federal government fighting them ever step of the way. The governors are forced into fighting a two front battle, one against the virus and the other against the feds.

It is pretty clear we're at the end of a party system. The Roosevelts were the first presidents of a party system. They swept in a new system and set the tone for the next generation. At the end of a party system people feel like things are falling apart and the last president is usually seen as incompetent. The last president of a party system is usually a one term president too.

With a new party system a new coalition for the winning party usually comes together. Reagan was the starter of the current party system. He solidly won over the Southern whites, got the conservative Christians consistently voting Republican, as well as won over other poorly educated whites.

At the moment, a media empire and at least one foreign country are working hard to keep the country divided. I don't have any obvious solutions though.

If things go very badly for COIVD-19 this summer, it will be horrendous for the people, but it could prove to be the death knell for the Republican coalition.
 
Nixon did say that the US would rip itself apart if we didn't have the USSR to oppose.

The Spanish American War was not really the big issue with Teddy Roosevelt's popularity. The Republicans made him VP to shut him up and then McKinley was killed and TR became president. TR was very popular because he was speaking out against the trusts that were strangling the US economy. The martyrdom factor of McKinley's assassination helped solidify TR's mandate, but it was also his overall popularity.

Right, I'd forgotten about McKinley! But didn't McKinley pass the tariff act to protect domestic manufacturers? The "us vs them" in that situation was also pretty clear.


In FDR's case, he became president 8 years before Pearl Harbor and did most of his changes to put corporate power in check before the war started. He was swept into power by the Great Depression.

In both cases these presidents successfully blamed corporate power for the problems in the country and united the country against them.

Which still gave him a common enemy - the Great Depression.

Also, neither presidents were against corporate america! TR might've presided over the passing of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, but he made sure that the focus was about the "abuse of monopoly power", not the monopoly itself!

FDR didn't blame corporate power and restored faith into the banks to start businesses running again.


Some states are doing a marvelous job trying to protect their citizens, but the job is being made significantly more difficult by the federal government fighting them ever step of the way. The governors are forced into fighting a two front battle, one against the virus and the other against the feds.

It is pretty clear we're at the end of a party system. The Roosevelts were the first presidents of a party system. They swept in a new system and set the tone for the next generation. At the end of a party system people feel like things are falling apart and the last president is usually seen as incompetent. The last president of a party system is usually a one term president too.

With a new party system a new coalition for the winning party usually comes together. Reagan was the starter of the current party system. He solidly won over the Southern whites, got the conservative Christians consistently voting Republican, as well as won over other poorly educated whites.

At the moment, a media empire and at least one foreign country are working hard to keep the country divided. I don't have any obvious solutions though.

If things go very badly for COIVD-19 this summer, it will be horrendous for the people, but it could prove to be the death knell for the Republican coalition.

Right now, with Biden as the nominee, I'm not so sure. Also, if the economy recovers from COVID-19 for the summer, the republicans will have a wind in their sail (Since Trump will claim to have "beaten the virus", and could possibly win, but only just in time to experience the second outbreak wave when the flu season returns and again mis-handle the federal response to a global crisis. Some things I just don't want to take a wait-and-see position.
 
Right, I'd forgotten about McKinley! But didn't McKinley pass the tariff act to protect domestic manufacturers? The "us vs them" in that situation was also pretty clear.

McKinley got the Tariff Act through in 1890 when he was in the House, but another tariff law replaced it in 1894. McKinley was elected president in 1896.


Which still gave him a common enemy - the Great Depression.

Also, neither presidents were against corporate america! TR might've presided over the passing of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, but he made sure that the focus was about the "abuse of monopoly power", not the monopoly itself!

FDR didn't blame corporate power and restored faith into the banks to start businesses running again.

The Sherman Anti-trust Act was passed in 1890. TR became president in 1901. In its first years the Sherman AT Act was used to break up trade unions. Roosevelt got things going with breaking up monopolies, but Taft did more than Roosevelt.

Sometimes monopolies are unavoidable. We had one phone company for decades because technologically it was pretty much impossible to get competition to your home or business. There were a lot of other places where monopolies had to or have to exist.

By 1900 the bulk of the US population was aligned against the abuses of the monopolies and TR was the leader who championed breaking them up. The monopolies were the common enemy. Read some of the classic American books of the 1890s, many are about abuses to workers that were happening that are very similar to China in the last couple of decades.

And for FDR have you ever heard any of his speeches where he goes after corporations? One I recall he said the corporate leaders hate him and he's proud of it. There were a number of banking reforms passed in the 30s that limited the size of banks and what they could do.

And we have a couple of enemies or potential enemies today. One is a potential depression and the other is COVID-19. If COVID-19 cases explode around the country in the next month or two (I think it's inevitable with the Republican controlled areas almost encouraging people to congregate), the Republicans could become the common enemy.

As for being anti-corporation, that's not a good idea. Corporations as a concept are neutral. They are a way to organize a business entity and can be a good thing if used properly. The problem is that bad actors have abused the corporation laws and practices to do harm to others. That definitely needs to be reigned in.

I am in favor of corporate reform and prosecuting the people who have broken the law and passing new laws to close loopholes crooks have used to legally steal money or get away with doing harm. But I am not in favor of doing away with corporations. That would be way too heavy a lift for the United States to attempt and it would almost certainly fail and fail spectacularly.

When trying to change the system you make much better progress when you cut with the grain rather than completely against it. If you only try to change a few strategic memes rather than change everything, you stand a decent chance of success. If you try to change too much too quickly, there will be a massive backlash that will throw you out of power.

The ACA was a very watered down medical reform, but the Republicans successfully sold it as a massive overhaul of the medical system that was going to destroy everything and they succeeded in crippling it in many ways to a point where its effect has been very minimal.

Right now, with Biden as the nominee, I'm not so sure. Also, if the economy recovers from COVID-19 for the summer, the republicans will have a wind in their sail (Since Trump will claim to have "beaten the virus", and could possibly win, but only just in time to experience the second outbreak wave when the flu season returns and again mis-handle the federal response to a global crisis. Some things I just don't want to take a wait-and-see position.

If the virus goes away this summer, the Republicans will be in a strong position. But it will be blind luck rather than planning. The best crisis managers in all this are looking months ahead while Trump is looking a day ahead at most.

Everywhere in the world where people have been free to associate freely until the virus gets dug in have had bad outbreaks of the virus. That's happening right now in many red states. The Democratic governor of Kansas tried to put in a stay at home order, but the Republican legislature overrode her. The governor of Arkansas put out an executive order banning local leaders from instituting stay at home orders.

This is almost certainly going to lead to big outbreaks in many of these red states. We will see New York turn the corner soon, and the west coast is already got things slowed down. But it's going to spread to the areas which were slow to issue stay at home orders and it will likely be a rough summer in some parts of the US.

If what I think will happen does come to pass we will have many shining examples of how to do it right and how to right and how to do it wrong by the end of the summer.
 
Utter nonsense. Democrats (and anyone else) who don't vote for the Democratic nominee are choosing Trump, and are therefore marking themselves as imbeciles.

I flagged your post as disagree, because while I agree with the primary sentiment (must vote Trump out), the expression suggests that my vote is owned by the Democratic Party.

It is not.

My vote must be earned, even if that means being earned by clearing the Trump Bar.

Suggesting that people that view their vote in that fashion are imbeciles is not friendly to democracy, nor is it a winning argument to draw additional people to your side.
 
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I flagged your post as disagree, because while I agree with the primary sentiment (must vote Trump out), the expression suggests that my vote is owned by the Democratic Party.

It is not.

My vote must be earned, even if that means being earned by clearing the Trump Bar.

Suggesting that people that view their vote in that fashion are imbeciles is not friendly to democracy, nor is it a winning argument to draw additional people to your side.
If some other party or candidate looks like they can be "not Trump" then that's who should get your vote. Parties don't matter. But we do need to get this criminal sociopath out of office and into prison. Along with all his cronies and enablers. This is 2016 again, but with proof.
 
If some other party or candidate looks like they can be "not Trump" then that's who should get your vote. Parties don't matter. But we do need to get this criminal sociopath out of office and into prison. Along with all his cronies and enablers. This is 2016 again, but with proof.

This is a sentiment I can agree with easily.

Some additional thoughts. The first observation is that I'm one of the vast majority of people in the country whose vote matters very little in the Presidential race. I live in a state that will vote Democrat by a comfortable majority. As a result, we won't see a presidential candidate in the state and we're not likely to see any ads unless they're Internet / nationwide. And whether I vote or not, my contribution to the next President is the same - nothing.

Others live in states that will vote Republican by a comfortable majority. Whether they want that flavor of authoritarian or not, their vote matters very little.

And maybe that colors my view of things.


I voted Libertarian for the first time in 2016. First time voting outside the Democratic party. It was also the first time in my life where I voted FOR something, instead of voting against something. I've decided that I'm tired of voting against, and that my vote isn't owned but needs to be earned.

When I look at the two big parties in the US, I see two contestants arguing over how specifically the government should be telling us all how to live. I see two authoritarian parties duking it out to see who will be in power, and be dictating our actions. My distaste for both is high.

Trump is a particularly bad form of authoritarian and needs to be out. I'm afraid that he's also pushed the new normal along the authoritarian / libertarian axis far enough authoritarian that we're going to see the same but different along that axis (there isn't a problem that the government can't better tell us what the right solution is, and implement it).


I also find that one of Biden's messages (and I'm sure I'll get this wrong) resonates with me - he's advertising himself as a caretaker president. He'll be the guy that gets some professional management back in place; won't be the guy that brings in the New Deal pt 2. Maybe he'll be able to clean up the mess created by Trump. I find myself thinking that's a good idea, and that might be something I can vote for.
 
I flagged your post as disagree, because while I agree with the primary sentiment (must vote Trump out), the expression suggests that my vote is owned by the Democratic Party.

It is not.

My vote must be earned, even if that means being earned by clearing the Trump Bar.

Suggesting that people that view their vote in that fashion are imbeciles is not friendly to democracy, nor is it a winning argument to draw additional people to your side.
Is it a question of "clearing the Trump Bar", or dancing the Limbo to get under it?
 
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On Thursday, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell's (R-Ky.) attempt to pump another $250 billion into the program via unanimous consent was blocked by Democrats, who are proposing an alternative that includes billions more for hospitals and states.
  • McConnell subsequently blocked the Democrats' proposal to pass their bill by unanimous consent as well, and the Senate adjourned until Monday.

Details: McConnell's supplemental is in response to a request from the Treasury Department, based on initial PPP loan demand.

  • Senate Democrats' alternative also includes new money for hospitals, state and local governments, SNAP benefits, and community-based financial institutions that otherwise are unable to participate in PPP.
  • In other words: Both sides are headed to the negotiating table, although there is no disagreement that the initial $250 billion was insufficient.
Senate Democrats block Republicans' $250 billion PPP injection
 

We're in a race to shovel more money at the economy, and I'm not confident that's wrong.

However, my new view on money is that it's a claim on economic activity. So at the extreme (which we seem to be attempting to test), if we have as much money as can be printed (infinite), but no economic activity to make claims on with that money, then the money is worthless.

Though I suppose if you have needle and thread, and your money is in physical form, you could sew it together into a particularly poor paper blanket. Or feed it to the fireplace to make heat.


The money can be used to keep things moving, but the actual economy also needs to get going. The best path to that that I've seen (and I apologize for the light virus pollution) is ubiquitous and repetitive testing. We've got a ways to go on that front.
 
I'm somewhat bemused by recent speculation here about the future. We know we are in uncharted territory and the strong ties created by communication technology means many opinions can be transmitted from almost any source with no factual censorship. It amounts to wasted talk so why bother? Stock prices are determined in a similarly random walk in the short term.

"Too bad perspective comes only with age," my favorite math teacher used to say in high school. At the time I felt his remark silly, how else could one get perspective without distance? Another perspective on distance could come from foreigners. In another class one day we had a visiting education professor speak from the Netherlands who remarked "in our country we teach high school students how to think, here you are taught how to act." By 'act' at the time I took him to mean, 'behave.' That was understandable at the height of McCarthyism in this country and in a special honors class called Art/English, the two teachers insisted the essay, the Dutchess and the Smugs, was really a metaphor for the conflict between capitalism and communism. None of us reacted that way so we were scolded. Then, and now wiith more experience, the essay was about the conventional and a differing temperament, the artistic.

Managers are just glorified janitors—they do the things that must be done. Artists show us what can't be done.

Therefore I must be naive to think no governor should be careless about the health of their population in the interest of a narrow advantage in the short term for business interests. We must conclude as some have already suggested Elon Musk is from Mars. Where Amurrica went wrong was substituting substance with the technology of taxation, other financial tinkering, subsidies, advertising.... (Cf the original article on "Managing Our Way to Economic Decline" in the Harvard Business Review.)

Managing Our Way to Economic Decline

Mediocrity is so baked into our system that again as in 2020 it has produced the worst of each potential candidate so far as they did in 2016. Fingers crossed a Cuomo/Warren ticket might emerge. But there must be a sort of 'Gresham's Law' of politics.
 
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Read that Sanders is going to stop campaigning, but will still put his name on the ballot for President. Could this split the vote?

Bernie has just stopped actively campaigning, but he still wants people to vote for him in the remaining primaries, so he collects more delegates and gets more say during the Dem convention. He is not (yet) a third-party candidate. (not even sure he has enough time to get on the November ballot as a 3rd party.)
 
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