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Mary Barra, what is going through your mind right now?

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Toyota has come out point blank and said with no ambiguity that they believe EVs are not a good idea today. It's why you don't see a BEV or a Volt competitor in their lineup, you see a Mirai and a second weak attempt at a PHEV.

How do I define a Weak Attempt? If a car needs to burn gasoline to achieve advertised performance, it is a partial effort. ie - If you advertise 100HP, you should have a 100HP electric motor in it, not a 50HP.
My prism is related to petroleum and fossil fuel use. If a 100% ICE car uses much less fuel I call it a strong effort. If a 22 mile plug-in Prius reduces both fossil fuel and petroleum use 75% compared to a similar conventional ICE car I call it an excellent effort. And at an unsubsidized price that is (perhaps?) $2 - $3000 more than a regular car, it is brilliant.

Through that lens EV is a means to an end.
 
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Is the 'why?' asking about driving ?

Let's see: I sit on inches of foam in a climate controlled cabin, turning a wheel a centimeter to the right ... a centimeter to the left. If I press the accelerator I feel a little pressure on my back -- but only a little, or the manufacturer will hear about it!

I'm hard pressed to think of a more boring way to spend my time.
More precisely... Why would you feel 'sad'...? I have always enjoyed driving. It makes me very happy. I'm not someone you would need to shed a tear for in that situation at all.
 
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My prism is related to petroleum and fossil fuel use. If a 100% ICE car uses much less fuel I call it a strong effort. If a 22 mile plug-in Prius reduces both fossil fuel and petroleum use 75% compared to a similar conventional ICE car I call it an excellent effort. And at an unsubsidized price that is (perhaps?) $2 - $3000 more than a regular car, it is brilliant.

Through that lens EV is a means to an end.

52 mpg highway was sold as a Toyota Starlet in the US about 1980. I had one. RWD stick shift and was cheap. It had the best mileage of all cars at the time. It had better mileage than my Kawasaki H1 (500cc) or KZ900 (Z1).

So why has Toyota made so little progress since then? Have they even caught up with the 16 year old Honda Insight? No.

Toyota is not the non-profit SaveTheWhales charity that fashion conscious folk think it is. It builds whatever they think will sell, including large pickups and SUVs, but now it has to discount them heavily because they are inferior to the competition.
 
Lol. owners who do that are wasted their money since service centers weren't designed to make money.

Payments to the center do nothing for the cause nor nothing to keep the company in business.

The service centers should focus on inspecting cars before they go out so there aren't so many issues. That would do a lot more to keep the company in business.

Owners can just donate money rather than distracting the service centers since they aren't money makers.
Make up your mind would you? There is a difference between pre-delivery inspection, regular scheduled maintenance, and warranty service. Maybe you should stop guzzling the HaterAde and try a nice, calming Brandy instead...?

An owner that was concerned about the cost of scheduled maintenance hounded his local Service Center until they finally gave him a detailed report of exactly what is done for his money. He was eventually satisfied with their complete reply, which he referred to as follows:

jordanrichard replied on May 21, 2014 that, "To summarize, they essentially take the car apart and inspect all the nuts bolts and replace if any corrosion is spotted."
 
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jordanrichard replied on May 21, 2014 that, "To summarize, they essentially take the car apart and inspect all the nuts bolts and replace if any corrosion is spotted."

Wow. I didn't know that for only $600 they take the car apart looking for corrosion.
Hopefully they are doing some root cause analysis for why that is necessary in the first place since that would be take a lot of effort when they are selling 200k Model 3's a year.
 
Make up your mind would you? There is a difference between pre-delivery inspection, regular scheduled maintenance, and warranty service. Maybe you should stop guzzling the HaterAde and try a nice, calming Brandy instead...?

An owner that was concerned about the cost of scheduled maintenance hounded his local Service Center until they finally gave him a detailed report of exactly what is done for his money. He was eventually satisfied with their complete reply, which he referred to as follows:

jordanrichard replied on May 21, 2014 that, "To summarize, they essentially take the car apart and inspect all the nuts bolts and replace if any corrosion is spotted."

And if you wonder if that's really true, there's a forum member here on TMC that would say YES!
Tesla dismantles Roadster for owner’s repair just before warranty expires
 
But but but, I thought you just said the Volt is driven on the battery some 90% of the time?
My point is that until Tesla Motors became successful with the Model S, most people were entirely unaware of 'range' beyond knowing that descriptions of electric cars always included the word 'short' in front of it.

Americans are notoriously afraid of mathematics (and science). Anything that has to do with proportions, or statistics, or ranges simply put them to sleep. So, they concentrate on simple things instead. Because really, most don't actually understand what the phrase 'miles per gallon' means at all. They just listen for the number in front of it, and believe that the bigger the number the better*. They don't even know how many miles they get per tank of gasoline. They just automatically start looking for a gas station when the needle/indicator approaches the 1/4 tank mark, no matter how far they have driven.

The moment that a 'long range' electric vehicle became available, people began to point out how many cars had longer ranges, and determined that EVs were impractical, never 'ready for prime time'. None of them noted that the amount of energy stored in a Model S 85 was equivalent to 2.5 gallons of gasoline. Yet the cars could travel over 250 miles. They had also forgotten how often they used to fill up with gasoline, or why it was possible for them to go so far with it today.

For the longest time, just about any vehicle at all that was capable of 0-60 MPH in under six seconds... Or completing the 1/4 mile in less than twelve seconds... Was an absolute gas guzzler by default. If you were lucky, highway fuel economy would be as much as 12-15 MPG. City driving would give you perhaps 8-10 MPG. So even with a 20 gallon tank, if you drove to EMPTY, you'd manage 300 miles at best... And only 225 miles if you stopped to refill at a 1/4 tank left.

The only reason cars are able to do better now is because of the EPA's Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards, which the entire traditional automobile industry has fought against tooth and nail since 1976.
Several technologies and techniques have been developed to improve range, by increasing the distance one could travel per each individual gallon of fuel. And none of those companies wanted to do it. They claimed that combined with emissions requirements, the fuel economy standards meant their cars would be wimpier, slower, less desirable than ever before and that their Customers didn't want to drive those types of cars.

Had the Detroit Big Three been able to do things their way, without 'government interference' 400 ci, 400 HP, 4-barrel carburetors, 4-on-the-floor, and dual exhaust would still rule American roads from sea to shining sea. So what if they got 3 MPG City and 5 MPG Highway? They would be POWERFUL... And gasoline is eternal, right?

The same guys who argued against fuel injection, overhead cams, computer control systems, continuously variable automatic transmissions, and hybrid electric gasoline engines now celebrate those very same technologies as examples of how ICE vehicles are today 'superior' to even long range EVs. They simply cannot accept that the time has come to change.

The funny thing is that green car freaks also argued vehemently against Tesla Motors' strategy. They insisted that 'carrying around that much weight in a battery pack' was wholly unnecessary and that it would be better to just have small, short range city cars that were low performance and inexpensive to purchase as an example of where the automotive industry should go. Interesting that they would want to lock people in a tight loop of driving no further than from home, to work, and back home, with no freedom to travel elsewhere at all.

The Toyota Prius is a car that people probably still stop to fill up when the needle gets to the 1/4 tank mark. They probably don't realize they've driven a bit over 520 miles. They probably only notice how seldom they have to do so. And many of them probably don't take long trips in their Prius if they don't have to -- they'll take the Sienna instead.

Am I wrong to imagine a world where a Chevrolet VOLT driver would have 100 miles of fully electric range available to him on a daily basis... And that if he chose to take a road trip, after filling up at a gas station he too could cover 500+ miles before reaching a 1/4 tank and thinking that maybe they should fill up again? That is a dynamic that has worked so well for the Prius. It has resulted in more sales per year, for 11 years straight, than VOLT has managed in its entire existence.

========

* Well, except for V8 gearhead performance car nuts. Those guys believe the exact opposite. They believe that the lower the MPG, the better. "Boy, it don't git but 3 miles per gallon! This sucker here RUNS!" They associate 'power' and demonstration of immediate performance with the unmitigated, unrelenting, unrestrained consumption of gasoline. From their point of view, efficiency is measured by the number of gallons of fuel that can be translated into forward motion in the shortest possible amount of time. And a lot of those guys don't actually accept that their favorite drag racing vehicles have been running on an 'alternative fuel' for around four decades, and performing better year after year through the 1/4 mile than was ever possible with gasoline, whether leaded or unleaded.​
 
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The funny thing is that green car freaks also argued vehemently against Tesla Motors' strategy. They insisted that 'carrying around that much weight in a battery pack' was wholly unnecessary and that it would be better to just have small, short range city cars that were low performance and inexpensive to purchase as an example of where the automotive industry should go. Interesting that they would want to lock people in a tight loop of driving no further than from home, to work, and back home, with no freedom to travel elsewhere at all in that car.
Since I am partly of that persuasion I finished your sentence. I mostly advocate matching the tool to the chore, and not basing resource acquisition on the rare use case.

In my case I have 90 mile trips to work and a real winter so 150 mile range would be perfect and a ~ 200 mile EV in the neighborhood. If I want (or have) to drive longer distances where on-road charging is not available or feasible I'll use an ICE car. <<shrug>>
I just don't understand this EV purity ideology when reality is anything but.
 
There has been tremendous progress; you are comparing apples to oranges.
  1. Very different cars in size and weight
  2. Very different emissions profile
  3. Very different performance
  4. Different fuel economy rating tests

It's actually simpler than that.

Toyota does sell cars with better economy than the Prius in other markets. But like the Starlet, they would not sell well in the US. Toyota could make a 60mpg car tomorrow for the US, but we would not buy it, just like we shunned the 2000 Insight.

Currently the Prius is an "image" car. It's not the cheapest or best performing car. People buy them because of the badging. The Volt is actually quicker and cheaper to operate, but a Prius shopper would not be able to buy a Chevy because of peer pressure. Domestic cars are taboo for a large segment of the population.
 
Toyota does sell cars with better economy than the Prius in other markets. But like the Starlet, they would not sell well in the US.
I don't know of other models with better fuel efficiency but my point remains: Toyota has shown tremendous progress in fuel economy when cars are normalized. It is silly to trot out the Starlet as an example of no progress over the years when that car is a go-kart death-trap compared to a Prius.

The meme of the Prius being a badge of honor has a grain of truth for a fraction of the buying populace. Not so much by looks anymore, by the way. The Gen4 looks like a Camry. And PriusChat is full nowadays of people who proudly proclaim that they hate the way the car looks and only bought it because of fuel costs. The Prius, and even more so the new plug-in Prius, are sensible, reasonable, affordable family cars that reduce fossil fuels and petroleum dramatically. Loving Tesla does not preclude giving them their due.

Cheers. I'm tired of this conversation
 
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52 mpg highway was sold as a Toyota Starlet in the US about 1980. I had one. RWD stick shift and was cheap. It had the best mileage of all cars at the time. It had better mileage than my Kawasaki H1 (500cc) or KZ900 (Z1).

So why has Toyota made so little progress since then? Have they even caught up with the 16 year old Honda Insight? No.
The Toyota Starlet was sold in the US between the 1981-1884 model years. The base 4-speed model was EPA rated 38/40/42 (city/combined/highway) and the 5-speed model was rated 40/42/44.

When converted by EPA to today's window sticker calculations that would be 32/34/38 and 33/36/40. So, 40 mpg highway for the best model.

The 2016 Prius base model is rated 54/52/50 and the Eco model is 58/56/53. So, 53 mpg highway for the best model.

That's about 1/3 better highway mpg and just over 1/2 better combined mpg for a car that passes today's much tougher safety ratings with 5 stars overall for a larger and more comfortable car that weighs twice as much (about 1,500 vs 3,000 pounds)

The Starlet was a death trap by comparison. According to a car ranking book profiled by a New York Times article in 1984:

AUTOS ARE RATED IN CONSUMER BOOK

Using a crash index developed in part from Federal studies, the book said the Honda Accord four-door was the best subcompact in crash safety. The Toyota Starlet two-door ranked last among 24 cars in that category.

Yes, the 2001 Honda Insight got an excellent 60 mpg highway but was a small two-seater and might struggle to pass today's emissions tests because it got those results by running a lean fuel mixture that emits more NOX (what the VW diesels got in trouble for). Obviously, a 1980's Starlet couldn't pass today's emissions requirements either.
 
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The Toyota Starlet was sold in the US between the 1981-1884 model years. The base 4-speed model was EPA rated 38/40/42 (city/combined/highway) and the 5-speed model was rated 40/42/44.

When converted by EPA to today's window sticker calculations that would be 32/34/38 and 33/36/40. So, 40 mpg highway for the best model.

The 2016 Prius base model is rated 54/52/50 and the Eco model is 58/56/53. So, 53 mpg highway for the best model.

That's about 1/3 better highway mpg and just over 1/2 better combined mpg for a car that passes today's much tougher safety ratings with 5 stars overall for a larger and more comfortable car that weighs twice as much (about 1,500 vs 3,000 pounds)

The Starlet was a death trap by comparison. According to a car ranking book profiled by a New York Times article in 1984:

AUTOS ARE RATED IN CONSUMER BOOK



Yes, the 2001 Honda Insight got an excellent 60 mpg highway but was a small two-seater and could not pass today's emissions tests because it got those results by running a lean fuel mixture that emits more NOX (what the VW diesels got in trouble for). Obviously, a 1980's Starlet couldn't pass today's emissions requirements either.


Your data is in error. My Starlet was a 5 speed manual, and it was advertised at 52 mpg hwy at the brochure and on billboards, which wasn't too far off. Some sources also say it was the first Toyota in the US, which was also false.

1982 Toyota Starlet, 1.3 Liters, 4 Cylinders, 5 Speeds, Manual Transmission, 2 Venturis Carburetor MPG
City MPG:
38 MPG (U.S.)6 L/100km16 km/liter46 MPG (Imperial)
Highway MPG:
52 MPG (U.S.)5 L/100km22 km/liter62 MPG (Imperial)
Combined MPG:
43 MPG (U.S.)5 L/100km18 km/liter52 MPG (Imperial)
Vehicle Size Class:
Minicompact Cars
Manufacturer:
Toyota
Engine Size:
1.3 Liters
Fuel System:
2 Venturis Carburetor
Number Of Engine Cylinders:
4
Fuel Type:
Unleaded Gasoline
Overdrive Type:
Top Gear Ratio < 1
Transmission:
Manual Transmission
Number of Forward Speeds:
5
Engine:
n/a
Catalyst Application:
Yes
 
Since I am partly of that persuasion I finished your sentence. I mostly advocate matching the tool to the chore, and not basing resource acquisition on the rare use case.
Please, don't finish my sentences in a manner that is framed as a direct quote. I didn't say that. I wouldn't say that. If you want to paraphrase afterward, just to make a point, fine.

When I buy a car, that car is my tool. And the tool will be used as I personally choose to wield it. It is not for YOU to make the decision for me.

I know there are people that purchase purpose-built vehicles. One vehicle is for off-roading. One is for Sunday-go-to-meeting. One is for drag racing. One is for showing off. One is for commuting. Good for them.

But MY CAR is for ROAD TRIPS!!! Because I love to drive.

I just don't understand this EV purity ideology when reality is anything but.
The reality exists, today. It is simply not one that everyone is willing, or able, to accept, or afford. That time will come, a lot sooner than many expect possible.

I look forward to a time when cars roll out of the Fremont factory showing a 600 mile range... Or a 1,200 mile range... Or a 2,500 mile range... And before I die, some 100+ years from now, cars that have a 60,000 mile range the day they are built. And hopefully, none of them will ever be artificially limited to a sub-100 mile range.
 
Your data is in error. My Starlet was a 5 speed manual, and it was advertised at 52 mpg hwy at the brochure and on billboards, which wasn't too far off.
No, this is a difference caused by changing EPA estimate calculations. The window sticker calculations changed starting in 1984.

My numbers reflect the EPA ratings on fueleconomy.gov for the 1984 Starlet. This model was essentially unchanged from the 1982 Starlet, according to Wikipedia. The EPA change resulted in highway estimates dropping around 22% which accounts for the difference between the 1982 EPA 52 mpg and the 1984 EPA 42 or 44 mpg highway estimates for 4-speed or 5-speed manuals.

https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/carlabel/documents/420f06069.pdf

The test methods for calculating these estimates were last revised in 1984, when the fuel economy derived from the two tests were adjusted downward – 10 percent for city and 22 percent for highway -- to more accurately reflect driving styles and conditions.
 
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No, this is a difference caused by changing EPA estimate calculations. The window sticker calculations changed starting in 1984.

My numbers reflect the EPA ratings on fueleconomy.gov for the 1984 Starlet. This model was essentially unchanged from the 1982 Starlet, according to Wikipedia. The EPA change resulted in highway estimates dropping around 22% which accounts for the difference between the 1982 EPA 52 mpg and the 1984 EPA 40 mpg estimates.

https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/carlabel/documents/420f06069.pdf
Yeah, using outdated EPA figures to compare has continually been an issue (which is why the EPA released the adjusted numbers on their website).

Anyways, my view on the popularity of the Prius is that it is the only modern gasoline vehicle that can get easily get over 50 mpg on gasoline. The price is also decent so that there is a relatively quick "payback" and it is also a very practical vehicle (both in terms of cargo and passengers).
 
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Please, don't finish my sentences in a manner that is framed as a direct quote.
Apologies if it was not clear than I appended your sentence to express my viewpoint.

I'm not telling you how to use your car -- push it around for all I care. I was explaining why some greenies view(ed) EVs as local cars: they are perfect commuter cars. In a similar vein I promote bicycles as great transport for a ~ 10 mile radius around home although I certainly am jealous of the folks who go a lot further.
 
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Apologies if it was not clear than I appended your sentence to express my viewpoint.
It was clear to ME... It may not have been clear to someone else that the BOLD portion was something that you added. Because you enclosed the whole thing in a QUOTE box, as if I had said it. Someone else may have thought you were simply calling attention to something I wrote with added emphasis.

You could have simply started your first paragraph by saying you would finish the sentence that way. Thus, my ire. Though, your apologetic intent here is accepted. Thank you.
 
The reality exists, today.
I was not clear. I was saying that a 'pure' EV (in the sense of a car running only on clean fuel) is only a fraction of our lives. The other 3/4rths are our homes, businesses, workplaces, the larger economy we participate in, and the food chain. Certainly people exist who have zeroed their transport and personal home carbon budgets but that still leaves ~ 50% of the total per capita CO2 budget unresolved.

So my point is not to bash EVs -- quite the contrary, in particular those run off clean energy. I just see personal transport as one part of a broken big picture. This is what I meant by EV purity not being part of our reality. It was poorly stated
 
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