MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

[kerbyOT7]

In general you cannot determine the capacity of your battery from the charging screen. The energy added does NOT reflect the energy added.

This energy is always just:

rated miles added * (77.8kWh/~353mi).

miles added multiplied by the charging constant (so it’s wrong, since displayed rated miles do not contain the same energy as the charging constant, it can be lower by as much as 4.5% for vehicles below the degradation threshold - displayed rated miles do not include the buffer contribution).

So in your case with 353 miles at a full charge and ~177 miles added that works out to 39kWh. (This does not imply your battery capacity is 78kWh.)

It’s actually difficult to determine how much energy was actually added. Because we don’t know the exact charging efficiency.

Cannot use this formula:

177mi*0.955*77.8kWh/353mi = 37.3kWh

The reason being that with a new car your capacity is somewhat more than 77.8kWh most likely. This formula will work later in vehicle life. It is within perhaps 1-2% now.

This would imply charging efficiency of 77.5% which would likely be slightly low with a 120V outlet this time of year. It might be as high as 79%. (But would need to know exact voltage of your install under load.)

Anyway you likely added about 38kWh and your battery is about 79-80kWh capacity; with a 3.6kWh buffer, 50% would be about 38kWh.

Your numbers are in the ballpark anyway.

Later in life when you’re right at the degradation threshold of 77.8kWh, you’ll add 177 miles and it will be 37.3kWh rather than 38kWh. Of course it will take slightly less time to charge as well (37 minutes less). And at that point onwards the “constant” will stop changing and it will be less confusing (each displayed mile added will just contain 0.955*77.8kWh/353 of energy). Haha.

Anyway it is exceedingly likely you have the 82kWh battery with about 80kWh of capacity (not possible to know precisely - could even be 81kWh!), though it is very hard to be certain due to the charging efficiency issue. It seems that all US AWDs are being built with that battery now, that’s the reason I think it is likely, not really from any of the data.

Thanks for all the info! I'm new to all this and I'm trying to learn how to not only interpret the numbers I'm seeing, but also calculating battery capacity. Using another formula from you that I found elsewhere in this forum. I calculated the following.

(237 estimated miles) * (239 wh/mile) / 0.73 = 77593 = 78 kWh

I'm just not sure if that's all of my battery's capacity or if that's the useable capacity.

 

[Long Ranger]

I will try to let it sit at different SoC's while I discharge it over the next few days.

If it’s just a BMS calibration error, that’s probably a good plan.

If you actually have some bad cells, I think a good test might be to take it down to low SOC without stopping. With low capacity cells, I’d expect to see increasing imbalance vs the good cells as you discharge.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I'm just not sure if that's all of my battery's capacity or if that's the useable capacity.

The number you calculated is the minimum of two quantities:
1) Degradation threshold (about 78kWh for Model 3 LR at the moment, 77.8kWh is about right)
2) Your battery’s capacity, including the buffer (the usable battery to 0% not including the buffer is 95.5% of this value).

Since your car is relatively new, it is very likely your capacity exceeds the threshold so it is higher than 78kWh. It might be as high as 80 or even 81kWh (only SMT can tell you, or VERY careful observation on a long trip of the size of each rated mile).

The reason it is called the degradation threshold (my term) is that when your battery capacity goes below that level, you will start seeing the loss of rated miles. (But obviously capacity loss starts right away - possibly extremely slowly, hard to know with the new batteries at this point - it just is not readily visible until going below that threshold.)

Below the threshold, each rated mile will contain a well defined fixed amount of energy (related to the “charging constant”). Above the threshold, the energy content of each rated mile is expanded a little bit in proportion to how much the threshold is exceeded.

 

[Ofarlig]

The BMS have that value, 6mV between highest and lowest cell. Se the pictures.

6mV is good balance.
In practical terms 10mV is a capacity difference of about 0.1% so we are seeing in the ball park of 0.06% difference in charge status/capacity between the lowest and the highest cells. I se mostly 4mV when the car is not running and SOC between 20 and 90%.

Yeah I see I mixed ideas in my head, I didn’t mean to suggest it was unbalanced but rather uncalibrated. Since letting it sit at different SoCs might help with the calibration.

 

[conv90]

How about you give that 100% charge a try then? Show the car were its top is.

I've done that twice so far (orange usable remaining lines) and in general my NFP hovers between 80,5 and 81,0.View attachment 687628

Im back and 20 pages of messages to read..
Happy to see that 00-T can be good as the previous 00-P .
(only my 00-T shows always around 79,6-79,8 NFP regardless of style of charge) - total odometer: 7700 km
But today after the 2021.12.25.7 the NFP dropped from 79,8 to 79,3.
..and just to be in the opposite sensation about temp @AAKEE this night the temp dropped to under 15 deg°C .

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

But today after the 2021.12.25.7 the NFP dropped from 79,8 to 79,3.

So down to about 499-500km, I guess?

 

[Jejunjm]

How accurate is NFP on smt? Why does it vary?

 

[conv90]

So down to about 499-500km, I guess?

Yes, 499 but I saw 503 too (at still 79,3)

 

[AAKEE]

Im back and 20 pages of messages to read..
Happy to see that 00-T can be good as the previous 00-P .
(only my 00-T shows always around 79,6-79,8 NFP regardless of style of charge) - total odometer: 7700 km
But today after the 2021.12.25.7 the NFP dropped from 79,8 to 79,3.
..and just to be in the opposite sensation about temp @AAKEE this night the temp dropped to under 15 deg°C .

I’ve been on the road since last full charge( NFP 81.0 and nominal remaining 81.5).
So far 2K km, and about 1k more before the trip is done. Almost only SuC. Ive been between 20 and 50% SOC during nights and SuC to 70-80%.
It has been warm and the car has been outside. Only checked with SMT once, yesterday, and the NFP was at 80kWh.
This is clearly in line with my guess before checking with SMT. Hot weather, the car outside, quite long drives so the average batttery temp is probably much higher than when at home in the garage.
My guess is that the NFP will climb again when slowcharge to ”only” 55-60% and in a colder climate.
Still have the feeling that high temps lower the NFP for me.

 

[conv90]

Yes, 499 but I saw 503 too (at still 79,3)

And now down another 0.5 kWh
78,8 kWh (still 501 range on SMT)
Now I have about 2500 km of vacations and only supercharger as charge option

 

[conv90]

And now down another 0.5 kWh
78,8 kWh (still 501 range on SMT)
Now I have about 2500 km of vacations and only supercharger as charge option

Now 78.5 and 492 F R range

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Now 78.5 and 492 F R range

Back in the bad old days (2018-2020), 3% capacity loss* after 6 months would have been viewed as a great result!

Maybe you are charging it wrong!

* actually less for you since you started at around 79kWh…

 

[AAKEE]

I joined the 79-club yesterday, arrived after a 3400km tour with supercharging only.
Had NFP 79.4 at arrival at home

Colder climate up here and also regular charging from now on for a while. I hope and guess the NFP will climb back a little, before I start my race for the 78kWh club
(20K km and seven months)

 

[Jejunjm]

I joined the 79-club yesterday, arrived after a 3400km tour with supercharging only.
Had NFP 79.4 at arrival at home

Colder climate up here and also regular charging from now on for a while. I hope and guess the NFP will climb back a little, before I start my race for the 78kWh club
(20K km and seven months)

Charged to 96%, 100f garage NFP 78.6

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I joined the 79-club yesterday, arrived after a 3400km tour with supercharging only.
Had NFP 79.4 at arrival at home

Colder climate up here and also regular charging from now on for a while. I hope and guess the NFP will climb back a little, before I start my race for the 78kWh club
(20K km and seven months)

As (you) already know, wouldn’t worry about much until you see a solid 1.5kWh delta for a good long month or so. And even then don’t “worry” since of course it’s normal.

Great results so far with this battery; small sample size. We’ll see! To me it appears better than 2018-2020 but I think too limited a sample and too limited a time, so far. I figure if we’re only seeing rare reports of 5% loss around January/February, that would be progress.

 

[yon1000]

You might have failed to spot it, but the top part of the chart is US market and the lower one is EU market. UK and Israel are none of the two last time I checked.
US LR/P are now fully transitioned from 77,8kWh to 82,1kWh Panasonic NCA. EU has the 82kWh Panasonic since Q4/2020 and had the 82kWh LR for one quarter in Q2/2021 with Tesla communicating that it will be back by Q4/2021. Though the most recent development is that all cars are supposed to be coming from China and with the knowledge that a 82kWh LG pack has been certified for the EU LR, we can surely expect that this will be the battery powering the LR in Q4/2021. Probably allso the Model Y MIC from Q4/2021.

Björn Nyland did a test with both. The 82kWh Panasonic broke his 1000km record for all EV's. The 75kWh was not too convincing...The cars for Q3/2021 have the new drive unit so no matter the battery, they might all be a little more efficient.

I doubt that the 75kWh LG pack is still produced in november. My guess is that, by then LG has fully shifted to the 82kWh 5L pack. Personally I would postpone my order until the first Q4/2021 cars have arrived or at least until the first customers received their registration papers.

Based on your claim, the November cars should have 614 km of range vs 580, but the website is still 580km.
The vehicles of Novemeber are probably being produced by August at best. So no 614km before 2022 for the MiC Model 3 LR

 

[eivissa]

Based on your claim, the November cars should have 614 km of range vs 580, but the website is still 580km.
The vehicles of Novemeber are probably being produced by August at best. So no 614km before 2022 for the MiC Model 3 LR

As mentioned last time, I cant speak for regions outside the EU. For Germany the 614km LR cars are still confirmed by Tesla for Q4/2021.
-All customers who ordered from late June until today got contacted and asked if they want the 580km in Q3 or the 614km version in Q4.
-The Tesla website said 614km LR in November until about a week ago. Now it switched to December...still OK for Q4.
-Tesla SA's specifically asked that question unanimous confirmed 614km LR for Q4 if ordered now.
-V18 for the EU was certified in Q2/2021 confirming a battery pack from LG that is able to support the 614km WLTP and from experience we know that whenever Tesla certifies something big (like a large new battery) it comes about 3 months later ->The Q4 cars will be built last week of August, mostly in September.

I have no reason to doubt, that we see 614KM LR cars delivered from Shanghai in Q4/2021. Probably with the new 82kWh'ish LG battery as E5LD, but maybe also as E3LD with the Panasonic packs, depending on supply.

 

[Matt125]

As mentioned last time, I cant speak for regions outside the EU. For Germany the 614km LR cars are still confirmed by Tesla for Q4/2021.
-All customers who ordered from late June until today got contacted and asked if they want the 580km in Q3 or the 614km version in Q4.
-The Tesla website said 614km LR in November until about a week ago. Now it switched to December...still OK for Q4.
-Tesla SA's specifically asked that question unanimous confirmed 614km LR for Q4 if ordered now.
-V18 for the EU was certified in Q2/2021 confirming a battery pack from LG that is able to support the 614km WLTP and from experience we know that whenever Tesla certifies something big (like a large new battery) it comes about 3 months later ->The Q4 cars will be built last week of August, mostly in September.

I have no reason to doubt, that we see 614KM LR cars delivered from Shanghai in Q4/2021. Probably with the new 82kWh'ish LG battery as E5LD, but maybe also as E3LD with the Panasonic packs, depending on supply.

Given that all EU countries (and EEA like Norway) currently have a higher km and mile range on the order page on the website compared to what is available in the UK (360 miles in UK, 380 miles in Norway when converting from km), are they currently being delivered with the E3LD pack? Given that E5LD won't be out until Q4.

 

[eivissa]

Given that all EU countries (and EEA like Norway) currently have a higher km and mile range on the order page on the website compared to what is available in the UK (360 miles in UK, 380 miles in Norway when converting from km), are they currently being delivered with the E3LD pack? Given that E5LD won't be out until Q4.

EU+Norway+Switzerland...got these LR variants in 2021:
Q1 = E3CD / E5CD = 580km same price
Q2 = E3LD / E5CD = 614km / 580km same price!
Q3 = E5CD MIC = 580km 2000€ discount!
Q4 = E5LD MIC = 614km?

 

[Matt125]

EU+Norway+Switzerland...got these LR variants in 2021:
Q1 = E3CD / E5CD = 580km same price
Q2 = E3LD / E5CD = 614km / 580km same price!
Q3 = E5CD MIC = 580km 2000€ discount!
Q4 = E5LD MIC = 614km?

Thanks, 580 km = 360 miles, that tallies with the table you posted previously. Just wanted to confirm the rest of Europe is in the same boat as the UK right now.

My delivery has been pushed back to September (because I have my current Model 3 until then) and then I'll need to make a decision on what to do. I may look at renting a car for a few months until I'm sure new deliveries to the UK have the E5LD.