Might be returning AWD 3 (advice request)

[Matt L]

Thanks for everyone's response. I hope he decides to keep it too, but he just told me he called Tesla to see what his options are. He is also saying he thinks there may be something wrong with the battery because he bought a dealer demo car from 2018 with only 52 miles on it....he's worried it sat at a very low/no charge for a long period which hurt the battery. I told him to have Tesla do a remote diagnostic and get 18's with aeros if he keeps it.

My family has been all electric since 2014 and couldn't imagine going back to an ICE. For him, he would just go keep is ICE SUV instead of selling it if this car doesn't work out...then wait several years before trying a longer range EV.

Thanks again for your advice. I'll update the post when I hear what he decides.

I’ve learned to be very careful with the recommendations I provide my in-laws becuase from now on you will own every little gripe about the car. And for me, I don’t want to hear their gripes...makes for a better relationship

 

[mswlogo]

I wonder if some basic instruction in regen might help. It seems like expecting the average buyer to understand how to get the most out of regen is too much to ask. I drive a lot of mountainous terrain and with high regen and using regen exclusively for downhills (no brakes if possible), I often get very long stretches where I am net positive for miles. This can be a major contributor to overall range.

If he has TACC on, which I think he should for that kind of trip he should, there isn't much you can do on the Highway around Regen behavior.

Only thing might be, is experimenting with low vs standard regen. In some situations "low" regen can do better.

"low" regen is poorly named. It's just a different curve. You could call "low" -> smooth and "standard" -> aggressive.
Both modes can recapture all of the kinetic energy. It's just a difference of when it does it and how you let it do it's job optimally.

 

[voip-ninja]

Thanks for everyone's response. I hope he decides to keep it too, but he just told me he called Tesla to see what his options are. He is also saying he thinks there may be something wrong with the battery because he bought a dealer demo car from 2018 with only 52 miles on it....he's worried it sat at a very low/no charge for a long period which hurt the battery. I told him to have Tesla do a remote diagnostic and get 18's with aeros if he keeps it.

My family has been all electric since 2014 and couldn't imagine going back to an ICE. For him, he would just go keep is ICE SUV instead of selling it if this car doesn't work out...then wait several years before trying a longer range EV.

Thanks again for your advice. I'll update the post when I hear what he decides.

It is extremely unlikely there is anything wrong with the car's battery.

If he regularly does this long distance drive in low temperatures his options are to switch to a RWD LR with Aeros which will improve the range by probably at least 15%, stop for at least some charging along the way, modify his driving habits (slower speed, less cabin heat, etc) or give up the car.

The person earlier hit it on the head. The typical person doesn't want to have to modify their driving habits in order to drive an electric car. They just want to get in the car and go. Typical ICE sports sedan has around 400+ miles of real world range even in cooler temperatures. If you run a bit short you stop for 5 minutes and put fuel in it.

All that goes out the window when driving an EV and even though Tesla has bent over backwards to try to make driving an EV painless these things will still be pain points for some customers who are going to transition to an EV.

 

[mswlogo]

It is extremely unlikely there is anything wrong with the car's battery.

If he regularly does this long distance drive in low temperatures his options are to switch to a RWD LR with Aeros which will improve the range by probably at least 15%, stop for at least some charging along the way, modify his driving habits (slower speed, less cabin heat, etc) or give up the car.

The person earlier hit it on the head. The typical person doesn't want to have to modify their driving habits in order to drive an electric car. They just want to get in the car and go. Typical ICE sports sedan has around 400+ miles of real world range even in cooler temperatures. If you run a bit short you stop for 5 minutes and put fuel in it.

All that goes out the window when driving an EV and even though Tesla has bent over backwards to try to make driving an EV painless these things will still be pain points for some customers who are going to transition to an EV.

I don't think he should change his driving habits (slower speed). He wasn't driving all that fast and he didn't do all that bad. Actually for the very first drive, I think he did excellent.

He just needs to get his head around the fact he will have to stop more often with EV and wait longer on longer trips. For day to day driving, charging at home makes up for some of the distance traveling inconveniences.

 

[muleferg]

Maybe he has a Heavy Foot. Like Me.

 

[Nocturnal]

If he is stressed about range when it's 50 degrees out he should return the car. Otherwise next year when he is driving in 10 degrees with a headwind he will lose his sh&t. That said, I don't see how he could be getting only 200 miles of range in that temperature with an AWD and only doing 71. Was he driving uphill into the wind? Is it that big a deal for him to grab a cup of coffee and charge for 20 minutes during the trip?

Interesting thread. This is the difference between when an auto enthusiast gets a car and is willing to drive in a certain way, with certain HVAC settings, etc, versus a regular person that just expects to drive the car in any situation and get the rated range. If it was an ICE, no problem just another stop to fuel and no love lost. But with EVs range anxiety becomes real and in my view quite problematic still even with the existing 300+ rated ranges for regular people. My advice would be to have a conversation with him and try to understand what he is willing to do to drive the EV. If he expects 310 miles from just sitting and driving in any situation he will be frequently disappointed. Also I have an issue with the battery level indicator showing a range that may confuse people. That's why I just use % instead of miles left.

That range anxiety is all mental. People are bad at looking at the big picture.

Time required to fuel your ICE car every week of the year > extra time required to supercharge on occasional trips. Stopping at a gas station is 5 minutes at best, but that can get closer to 20 minutes if the station is in an awkward area, it's not exactly on your way, it's busy etc. Do that every week and over the year that time dwarfs charging time.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I ran the trip through A Better Routeplanner and it looks like there are plenty of Superchargers along the way. It looks like he can even afford to skip several of them along any of the various possible routes.

There was a service bulletin last year for some cars that did have a problem with their batteries which would result in reduced range. The Service Center should be able to check his VIN and see if his is on the list.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2018/MC-10148848-9999.pdf

 

[MTSN]

Sounds like he jumped the gun. Any time I hear about people putting in a deposit, cancelling it, putting in a new order, vacillating, etc. I think immediately "they are not ready for an electric car". Buyers need to be very careful and think critically not romantically about their actual needs and uses for a Tesla, and I think most disappointed customers (usually) have only themselves to blame. Sounds harsh, but I see it regularly with other types of cars too in expensive, focused use cars where people don't think enough about what actually living with a car will be like.

 

[Superspectral]

I just got back from about a 1,700 mile road trip through MI, OH, MD, and PA. My Performance AWD with 20 in wheels and Michelin snow tires averaged 318 wh/mi. Temps ranged from 30s-60s. Speed ranged from 50s to mostly 80+ on long range stretches. I used navigation to charge to where I'd arrive about 18% by its calc at the next supercharger. So charge to 80% or so and drive 3 hours. No range anxiety. Stop, restroom, snacks, and off after 20-30 min. There was only one stop where I felt like I was waiting for charge. Keep in mind, actually driving 310 miles at 60 mph is over 5 hours without breaks. I don't do that.

It wasn't clear if the OP wanted to drive in one long trip without charging OR if he was calculating 180 mi range after many small trips. The car is least efficient on many small trips on cold days. The cabin and battery get warm and reach maximum efficiency and then you stop. If you are on a long trip, you'll get the cabin and battery warm and then drive at higher efficiency for the rest of the day).

If you have charging at your destination this gets easier and faster. You just need to learn how fast to go and what excess charge you want on each leg and you'll tune it in.

Once there are destination chargers everywhere and superchargers every 20 miles (in some places that's true already) it won't be an issue.

 

[SMAlset]

I ran the trip through A Better Routeplanner and it looks like there are plenty of Superchargers along the way. It looks like he can even afford to skip several of them along any of the various possible routes.

There was a service bulletin last year for some cars that did have a problem with their batteries which would result in reduced range. The Service Center should be able to check his VIN and see if his is on the list.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2018/MC-10148848-9999.pdf

Good point about that list. Suppose it could have a bad cell. Also given how you said he thought maybe the car sat uncharged for a while maybe that battery needs to be rebalanced. I also wondered about how he used regen.

Do have to say that the fact he ordered then canceled and then ordered again and has already called Tesla for options tells me he just feels this might not have been a good move for him. Have you asked him why he thought he wanted this car and then what exactly is making him think he doesn't? We've only done a few trips and not long ones just a couple hundred miles, but we've used our supercharger stops to hit the bathroom and grab a bite to eat. By the time we got back we were charged and the fact we had charged during that time wasn't even something we gave a second thought to. Just get back in the car and go.

Also does he know that he only has to charge enough plus like 20-30% or so beyond to get to the next charge? If he fully charges each time when he doesn't have to the wait due to the tapering off will cost him more time.

When my husband got his car I was concerned about the charging, afraid we'd run out of battery and get stuck. Didn't take long to realize that wasn't something I would have much of a problem with. Is that his main concern now?

 

[Ol'Blue]

Since he only has 600miles on it. It’s a new novelty. He basically did a long trip right from the start. Tell me you wouldn’t floor it a bunch of times to see what your new car feels like.

I find temp in the car feels warmer then in an ICE car. I never have the heat above 69-70 and no AC (will be different in the summer). I’m a in a M3pup living in the mountains and I average realistically 270miles on a full charge.

A couple of ideas, do a full charge. Mine maxed out at 97% the first time. So his probably needs a recalibration since it’s older and possibly never reached near 100%

Check his air pressure. You have no guarantee it’s at the right level from the lot. And on this note, the alignment might be off. Tesla build quarters and all.

And you, as someone who has owned several EVs, get in the car with him and go for a ride. Either you drive and show him lots of little tips and tricks, or he drive and you learn his style and make an informed decision. (This only works if you’re close by obviously)

Make sure he starts the trip with a fresh warm battery, no matter the season.

On a 2.5-3.5 hour drive, he doesn’t have to stop to pee and stretch his legs? 10 minutes at a SC will give a good chunk of range.

As with all new tech, there’s a learning curve, even in a new ICE car he would still have to adjust driving style for something.

I’m babbling now. I’m just shocked at the lack of range, there’s more to the story.

 

[voip-ninja]

Since he only has 600miles on it. It’s a new novelty. He basically did a long trip right from the start. Tell me you wouldn’t floor it a bunch of times to see what your new car feels like.

I find temp in the car feels warmer then in an ICE car. I never have the heat above 69-70 and no AC (will be different in the summer). I’m a in a M3pup living in the mountains and I average realistically 270miles on a full charge.

A couple of ideas, do a full charge. Mine maxed out at 97% the first time. So his probably needs a recalibration since it’s older and possibly never reached near 100%

Check his air pressure. You have no guarantee it’s at the right level from the lot. And on this note, the alignment might be off. Tesla build quarters and all.

And you, as someone who has owned several EVs, get in the car with him and go for a ride. Either you drive and show him lots of little tips and tricks, or he drive and you learn his style and make an informed decision. (This only works if you’re close by obviously)

Make sure he starts the trip with a fresh warm battery, no matter the season.

On a 2.5-3.5 hour drive, he doesn’t have to stop to pee and stretch his legs? 10 minutes at a SC will give a good chunk of range.

As with all new tech, there’s a learning curve, even in a new ICE car he would still have to adjust driving style for something.

I’m babbling now. I’m just shocked at the lack of range, there’s more to the story.

My experience with the climate control is quite different than yours. I own four vehicles currently and have had another four vehicles over the past ten years that I no longer own.

The Model 3 is downright chilly when it's cold outside and I set the temperature to 70F, even cranking it up to 76F sometimes leaves something to be desired.

One of the biggest issues I have with the way the climate system works is that it's difficult to get sufficient airflow out of the vents. I've never had this issue with any of my other cars. My BMWs allowed you to set auto climate control but have a speed setting with auto that let you set the fans to a comfortable level while the car still tried to regulate the climate. It also had a scroll wheel between cool/hot for the front vents so that you could fine tune the air temperature coming out.... such as your hands getting too warm or too cold when you needed the climate control set at a certain temperature.

I've also put a digital thermometer on the center console of the Tesla on two occasions and found that the temperature that was read is off by as much as 5 degrees from the set point in the car even after pre-warming the car for 15 minutes before departing (temp in car set to 75F and thermometer shows 70F).

The biggest issue is my hands get cold in the wintertime and even if I turn up the Tesla climate control to well above the level I would normally need there's barely any airflow from the vents and my hands are cold. In some cases I have to put gloves on or manually turn up the vent speed and even then don't feel like it's getting the job done.

 

[preilly44]

Thanks for all the replies again.

His car was built in 11/18 so unfortunately, that TSB doesn't include his car (I was hoping when I looked it up).

Some really good points I've read were:
1. Recommendations with the in-laws...avoid it . I'm letting my wife do most of the talking.
2. Checking his alignment and tire pressure. He mentioned the car was pulling to the right when we did a test drive together. I just thought it was the crappy Staten Island, NY roads but that may will hurt range if it is off. We also didn't check his tire pressure which could cause the range to be lower.

He just said his avg wh/mi is 344 which seems pretty high for 500+ highway miles at 71mph with the heat set to 71.

He doesn't feel comfortable with FWD in the snow so he wanted AWD. Extra range doesn't mean anything if you don't feel comfortable driving it. He got 19" sport rims because it was a dealer demo that was $5k off and that was the only option.

I planned on giving him a list of all the superchargers and advice when/where to stop but he left a day early. Unfortunately, I'm out of the country and even when I'm not, I only see him a few times a year because of distance.

 

[sl8r2890]

Does he use the heated seats when he drives?
I believe the heated seats use significant amount of power int he vehicle.

 

[dhrivnak]

There are mountains, so I imagine part of the way was....

I have driven my 3 through W. Va and my range did not suffer much. I have RWD and 18" Aero wheels. I can't remember exact trip numbers but I was averaging 240 watts/mile just at the rated range for my first year.

 

[dhrivnak]

He just said his avg wh/mi is 344 which seems pretty high for 500+ highway miles at 71mph with the heat set to 71.
.

I have driven from Wytheville to Pittsburgh and averaged about 100 watts/mile LESS. Something is not right as I can't imagine AWD and 19" miles makes that much difference.

 

[abasile]

The Model 3 is downright chilly when it's cold outside and I set the temperature to 70F, even cranking it up to 76F sometimes leaves something to be desired.

Over the last six months that we have had the Model 3, we have always felt comfortable in the cold. Perhaps this is partly because we are in the habit of using the seat heaters, and they are particularly powerful, significantly warmer than the seat heaters in our 2012 Model S. You report that your hands get cold, and I agree that it would be nice to have a heated steering wheel, but this has not been much of a concern for us.

Does he use the heated seats when he drives?
I believe the heated seats use significant amount of power int he vehicle.

I don't know exactly how much power the seat heaters use, but I am certain that it is far less than what the heater uses. You should be able to make the seats quite toasty with only a negligible hit to range.

He just said his avg wh/mi is 344 which seems pretty high for 500+ highway miles at 71mph with the heat set to 71.

That does seem quite high, particularly if that is the average for the round trip. It would be nice if his complaints about range can be addressed by simply fixing the alignment!

 

[GolanB]

Does he use the heated seats when he drives?
I believe the heated seats use significant amount of power int he vehicle.

Heated seats actually utilize very little power (100W per seat) vs. the resistant heater (up to 4300W). One method of increasing range is by shutting off cabin heat, and leveraging heated seats only. There is far less to heat, and the heat is almost directly applied to your body.

This generally only works if you're bundled up pretty well.

 

[SammichLover]

Heated seats actually utilize very little power (100W per seat) vs. the resistant heater (up to 4300W). One method of increasing range is by shutting off cabin heat, and leveraging heated seats only. There is far less to heat, and the heat is almost directly applied to your body.

This generally only works if you're bundled up pretty well.

So much this. A touch of warmth into the seat, start with level 3 for a few minutes, then level 1 ongoing as needed. Turn the HVAC to "LO", and manually set it to intake fresh air across the windshield.** Wear long sleeves, pants, and the minimum footwear you should have anyway while traveling highways in the weather. This helps immensely in saving energy AKA longer range. Your body will keep the cabin warming that outside and the fresh air will keep the moisture of that body heat from condensing on the window.

The only thing that's a bit dodging here on the Model 3 is the lack of heated steering wheel. I don't know the $ on Tesla's cost for that but it strikes me as a corner that shouldn't have been cut. So you might also want to get some good leather mitts. I'm big on mitts vs gloves but good quality gloves probably work in a pinch, just aren't as good at keeping your finger warm.

Operating a BEV isn't exactly the same as an ICE. It's pretty close in most ways but there are slight twists you need to put on your old habits for a similar and acceptable outcome in tougher parts like this.


** I kinda wish Tesla had a more intuitive, obvious way to keep the heater from activating. You can explicitly turn off the A/C cooling of the cabin but not the resistive heating. With the later capable of using, and usually using more energy, than the former it seems to me like an oversight.

 

[KenC]

Thanks for all the replies again.

His car was built in 11/18 so unfortunately, that TSB doesn't include his car (I was hoping when I looked it up).

Some really good points I've read were:
1. Recommendations with the in-laws...avoid it . I'm letting my wife do most of the talking.
2. Checking his alignment and tire pressure. He mentioned the car was pulling to the right when we did a test drive together. I just thought it was the crappy Staten Island, NY roads but that may will hurt range if it is off. We also didn't check his tire pressure which could cause the range to be lower.

He just said his avg wh/mi is 344 which seems pretty high for 500+ highway miles at 71mph with the heat set to 71.

He doesn't feel comfortable with FWD in the snow so he wanted AWD. Extra range doesn't mean anything if you don't feel comfortable driving it. He got 19" sport rims because it was a dealer demo that was $5k off and that was the only option.

I planned on giving him a list of all the superchargers and advice when/where to stop but he left a day early. Unfortunately, I'm out of the country and even when I'm not, I only see him a few times a year because of distance.

I vote on returning it. Running thru this trip on abetterrouteplanner, I get 355Wh/m, so he's in the ballpark. 553miles, 1h20m of charging in 5 stops between 11 and 20mins. Some of the intervals were very short, 53 miles between Morgantown, and Weston. And 71 miles between Hagerstown, LaVale and Morgantown.

Given the short mileage intervals between stops, I can see it seeming excessive. And the weather conditions were not bad, mid-40s right? Imagine when it's colder and snowier. Okay, reran the simulation, and at 20F it says 1:28mins of charging at the same 5 chargers, so not much worse.

I presume your in-law wasn't using abetterrouteplanner, and so may have been stopping at SCs and charging for alot longer than necessary to make the next charger. Maybe you should do that talk with him and better understand his long-distance travel routine. How many stops does he usually make? What's his normal interval? How long does he usually stop for, that sort of thing. Then find out how long he did sit around charging. It may be the first time, he was charging inefficiently. Perhaps, a more efficient stop and charge strategy would make it reasonable.