When traveling for group events I've started booking Airbnb for everyone instead of multiple hotel rooms. This way I can still take the car with the wife but the home is going to have dryer outlet and I've made a 50ft or maybe it was 75ft extension cord so I can pretty much run the cord where ever. It sucks having to slow down below the speed limit just to have enough range to get somewhere out of the way and make it back to the main roads. Last trip we only had to sit for 2 hours so it wasn't the end of the world but yea, 400+ miles of range would make those trips amazing.
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Model 3 100 kWh battery and Ludicrous Mode [speculation about future developments]
- Thread starter HardHitter
- Start date
When traveling for group events I've started booking Airbnb for everyone instead of multiple hotel rooms. This way I can still take the car with the wife but the home is going to have dryer outlet and I've made a 50ft or maybe it was 75ft extension cord so I can pretty much run the cord where ever. It sucks having to slow down below the speed limit just to have enough range to get somewhere out of the way and make it back to the main roads. Last trip we only had to sit for 2 hours so it wasn't the end of the world but yea, 400+ miles of range would make those trips amazing.
You realize we would all say this regardless of whatever range we normally got? If 400 was the norm, we would need 500. If 1,000 was the norm, we would want 1,200.
Not trying to disparage your comments: we just preternaturally always want more!
johnmodely
Member
Not really, there is a real world reason we need more range, and beyond that magic number then there is no reason to ask for more range.
I think that magic number is around 400 miles.
This probably translates to 250-300 miles of real world 75-80 mph highway driving in the winter, which is about the max anyone would drive before a break whether EV or gas.
I think at that point EVs will reach parity with ICE cars in terms of range and range anxiety will disappear. Until we can drive EVs without needing to worry about how fast your going or whether the heater is on well need more range. After that 400 mile range I think we start to enter gimmick territory, and there is no real world reason for more range than that.
ElectricIAC
Good-Natured Rascal
At some point more frequent charging points, faster charging will supplant the need for larger batteries in most cases.
The first two are pretty much guaranteed to happen as more people choose BEV’s.
The first two are pretty much guaranteed to happen as more people choose BEV’s.
That's the magic number for YOU (and I am sure there are others).
My point is that if they came out with a 400 mile car (and they essentially have with the S's recent updates), there will be many who will say the magic number is 500 miles.
Your real world number is not everyone's real world number.
ElectricIAC
Good-Natured Rascal
Sure wish I was where it was always 70-75 with no head or tail winds or rain to ruin my rated mileage.
On that note. I actually saw rated wh/mi today out of the P3D+. In town on surface streets..
On that note. I actually saw rated wh/mi today out of the P3D+. In town on surface streets..
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
The average american drives between 10 and 30 miles a day (depending you prefer mean or median to define the average)
They're gonna need 400 miles rather than 300 (or hell 200) basically never. It'll save them 10 minutes on a 1-2 times a year road trip is about all that's gonna do for most people.
They're gonna need 400 miles rather than 300 (or hell 200) basically never. It'll save them 10 minutes on a 1-2 times a year road trip is about all that's gonna do for most people.
johnmodely
Member
Not really...not basing that number on my personal needs. Just logic.
A 300 mile range car does not get you anywhere near 300 miles in normal driving conditions. Your down to 240 when charging between 10-90% and thats being generous.
No one is going to drive at 60mph on the highway with no heat...If EVs are going mainstream then people need to know that when you drive it like a normal car, that 240 range is now under 150 in the winter.
We are still on the enthusiast phase for Tesla, even with almost 1M cars shipped. Once we start going 1M+ people are going to see 300 miles and expect 300 miles minimum...when they find out in real world conditions its 150 miles they are not going to be happy.
Until we are comfortably in the 200-250 miles range in worse case scenarios, we are not there yet in terms of range no matter what you say about "personal" preferences.
Also I get it, you live in SoCal, so you have no idea what the majority of the country will experience so your experience is near ideal. Unfortunately thats not most of the world.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure that word means what you think it means.
Logic tells us the average american only drives 10 or 30 miles a day.
Even 100 miles of range, cut in half for winter, is "enough"
300 is WAY WAY WAY more than enough.
The only time "real life" range over 50-100 miles matters for most people is road trips.
(Yes I'm sure there's travelling salesmen selling door to door to people who don' t know about the internet or something who do 375 miles a day of driving- but not enough of them we need to care about them)
and for road trips the only difference between an EPA rated 300 miles on a Tesla and an EPA rated 400 miles is... maybe 10 extra minutes at a supercharger.
YAWN.
ElectricIAC
Good-Natured Rascal
As long as there’s gaps over 100mi long (In some corner cases even as much as 250mi) between Superchargers it’s going to be more than 10 minutes.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Other than North Dakota where it is 250 miles between charges in the US?
Back in late 2018 99% of the US population lived within 150 miles of one. And they've built plenty more since.
https://electrek.co/2018/08/10/tesla-supercharger-cover-99-us-population-within-150-miles/
johnmodely
Member
People don't buy cars in the USA for their daily commutes. With your logic why buy a car at all, max 30 miles can easily be done in a scooter or a smart car. Those dozen or so road trips a year is all that matters. If you tell the average consumer the car will go 150 miles max an you need to wait 30 minutes between each charge good luck selling EVs to anyone outside this forum.
The magic number is whatever range is needed for the car to last long enough for the average piss break
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
If you think most people take "a dozen" road trips per year I've got a very nice bridge to sell you
For most folks it's between 0 and 2, with 1 being about average.
Weird- Nissan sold tons of leafs telling them exactly that. VW sold a ton of egolfs too (well, a ton by any standard but Teslas)
Hell, many early versions of the model S didn't do more than that in bad winter weather and those sold fine too.
Now a days most new ICE cars have a range over 400 miles, in order for BEV to be mainstream they have to be just as good as an ICE. For the people who argue that the average person only drives 30 miles a day and that is all we need ICE cars would never had progressed beyond a 5 gal gas tank
ElectricIAC
Good-Natured Rascal
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
For most of the history of all cars, most ICE cars didn't have over 400 miles of range.
Were none of them mainstream?
This fundamentally misunderstands two different things:
1) the evolution of ICE cars...for the first 50+ years they existed, stuff was pretty far away from each other, interstates didn't exist to get places fast...and heck for the first few decades gas stations weren't even that common... Also mileage sucked.
2) The difference in how the two vehicles are fueled today.
It's a pain in the ass every single time to refuel a gas car.
You have to make a special stop at a dirty, smelly, place, and stand there while the tank fills.
Doing that as few times as is reasonable is a worthwhile goal...and making a gas tank a little bigger is a minuscule cost.
EVs mostly charge at home, daily. You just plug in when you park, and it's "full" (or whatever you charge to) every morning. There's no need to care if it has 200 or 300 or 500 miles of range because you're plugging in every night and 99% of the time you're nowhere close to running out for a single day.
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ElectricIAC
Good-Natured Rascal
The rural gas station came to be out of necessity despite logistical challenges faced by those early pioneers. DC fast charging won’t proliferate as fast as people still have a choice when EV won’t work for their needs.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
More importantly, they can charge at home.
You don't need a DC fast charger near your house like you do a gas station with an ICE vehicle.
DC fast charging is useful for road trips where the hundreds of miles of from-home range isn't enough- outside of that it's largely a waste of time and money compared to home charging.
Versus a gas car where you need to refuel it outside the home 100% of the time unless you live at a gas station.
Obviously you've never tried driving from Albuquerque to Durango. Or to Page. Or to Flagstaff. Or to Santa Fe. Or to Denver via southern route...not that you have any reason to, but the fact is today those routes aren't possible with "10 extra minutes at a supercharger". If there were a supercharger, you'd be correct. But big areas of the west have >220 miles between SC's, and in winter or going uphill or with a headwind our cars get more like 200 even spending the extra hour to max charge before departure. We could argue whether the solution is more SCs or more range, but some of the SCs that would help have been "coming this year" since 2016, so I'd personally be first in line for a 3 or Y with more range.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Durango Colorado?
That's only 215 total miles.
No charging needed for LR cars (or the newer S/X cars). Even in winter.
And even if you DID need to charge, there's one in Farmington NM that's like 10 minutes west of the normal route.
So yes that route is totally possible with 10 extra minutes at a supercharger. Or 0 extra in any LR Tesla.
ABQ to Page AZ?
that's 415 miles northern route- with a stop at the Farmington Charger....184 miles from ABQ.
Or if you're, I dunno, towing a boat with an X or something, take the southern route which is 35 miles longer and there's SCs at Gallup, Holbrook, Flagstaff
Speaking of!
ABQ to Flagstaff is 324 miles... stop at Gallup 144 miles from ABQ and you'll be fine.
... not sure WTF you mean here? ABQ to Santa Fe is only 64 miles....
from ABQ?
449 miles... Not really sure what the southern route means as most of the trip is straight north?
but you pass chargers pretty often on that route... (Santa Fe, Las Vegas NM, Trinidad, CO, and Colorado Springs)- so you pass one roughly every 120 miles.
This does not appear to be true for any of the routes you listed.
Maybe you haven't checked recently?
Tesla states 99% of the US lived within 150 miles of a supercharger back in 2018... it seems unlikely much of it moved outside that range since then, more likely that missing 1% got smaller... (or all live in ND I guess?)
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