Model 3 dual motor AWD optional

[sandpiper]

I think that might be a bit of an overreaction. I learned to drive on both FWD and RWD as a kid (in a cold, snowy climate) and switching between them is an extremely small difference probably 95+% of the time. IMO it is only very extreme situations (well beyond what you encounter in normal driving) where you feel the difference in a significant manner.

I was a teenager in the 80s in a cold, snowy climate. And so had the chance to drive many FWD and RWD vehicles in my formative driving years. If safety is a concern, I would never take RWD over FWD. Granted, traction control has changed the equation somewhat but even so, I cannot for the life of me see anything positive in a RWD vehicle. In warm climate, of course it makes much less difference.

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So people are afraid of BMW's, and see them as throwbacks?

It depends where you live I suppose. Where I live, really nobody buys a 2WD BMW.

 

[JRP3]

I grew up in a snowy area with both FWD and RWD vehicles. I found that though FWD vehicles generally had better traction to get you going, RWD was more predictable, and with extra weight in the back had no issues. EV's without the front weight bias of ICE's should be fine. AWD for the win in the snow anyway.

 

[MassModel3]

I grew up in a snowy area with both FWD and RWD vehicles. I found that though FWD vehicles generally had better traction to get you going, RWD was more predictable, and with extra weight in the back had no issues. EV's without the front weight bias of ICE's should be fine. AWD for the win in the snow anyway.

Totally agree.

When's the last time you saw a front-wheel-drive snow plow? They're typically RWD pick-up trucks with the back weighted down to improve traction. In the Model 3, the rear wheels will be weighted down by the battery, equally weighted with the front. Throw some snow tires on and RWD will perform every bit as well as FWD.

All this talk of FWD vs. RWD is irrelevant when you're talking about FWD in a car that has a huge steel block (ICE) perched between the two front tires. Apples and oranges.

 

[EvilNuff]

If we are ignoring off-roading, AWD is not significantly better or safer than either FWD or RWD. Yes I too grew up in a snowy, icy climate. Knowing how to drive in the conditions matters orders of magnitude more than AWD. Sure its better but the delta is marginal IMO (just talking weather here not other factors).

 

[dgpcolorado]

Totally agree.

When's the last time you saw a front-wheel-drive snow plow? They're typically RWD pick-up trucks with the back weighted down to improve traction. In the Model 3, the rear wheels will be weighted down by the battery, equally weighted with the front. Throw some snow tires on and RWD will perform every bit as well as FWD...

Around here pickups, including those used for plowing, are AWD or 4WD. Don't know that there are any RWD trucks left, save for handful of very old ones with collector's plates.

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If we are ignoring off-roading, AWD is not significantly better or safer than either FWD or RWD. Yes I too grew up in a snowy, icy climate. Knowing how to drive in the conditions matters orders of magnitude more than AWD. Sure its better but the delta is marginal IMO (just talking weather here not other factors).

Might be a mountain thing, but AWD makes a big difference when going up steep grades in snow. Like my long, curved, steep driveway.

However, when going down a steep grade, AWD cars slide on slick roads just like anything else! Which is another way of saying that they don't stop any better than 2WD cars and all that traction means that drivers with AWD often drive too fast for the conditions.

 

[guillaumef]

I'll probably get whatever has the most range. Every time I hear a tidbit of new information about the Model 3, I get more excited. I can't wait to drive a Tesla.

Since the X is going to start shipping soon, all we're gonna hear after that is model 3. Start your savings account ! I sure hope it'll be full when the 3 hits the streets !

 

[Ingineer]

I don't this is the correct reason for increased efficiency in Tesla's AWD systems.

A normal electric motor has Power and efficiency curves that look basically like what's shown below.

View attachment 81450



So we see that the motor operates very inefficiently at low percentages of it's rated power, but works more efficiently at higher power, though it is still drawing more energy in absolute terms at higher power.

So let's imagine that we had two systems one 250hp motor, and one with two 125 hp motors, and that we need 25 percent of our rated horsepower. If we only have one motor we would operate at ~75% effeciency while in the two motor system we could just have one motor operating at 50% of the rated horsepower and operate at ~85% efficiency. Of course gearing and other factors come into play, but the general concept is that by operating along two curves rather than one we can better optimize our efficiency.

This is assuming an AC induction motor driven from the line voltage. VFD inverter drive changes the equation massively.

 

[tga]

Around here pickups, including those used for plowing, are AWD or 4WD. Don't know that there are any RWD trucks left, save for handful of very old ones with collector's plates.

For driveways and parking lots, I agree. I suspect MassModel3 may have been thinking about highway plowing. Here in the northeast anyway, those are usually big RWD dump trucks.

EDIT - And those big dump truck usually have a huge load of sand/salt over the rear wheels

 

[Candleflame]

I was a teenager in the 80s in a cold, snowy climate. And so had the chance to drive many FWD and RWD vehicles in my formative driving years. If safety is a concern, I would never take RWD over FWD. Granted, traction control has changed the equation somewhat but even so, I cannot for the life of me see anything positive in a RWD vehicle. In warm climate, of course it makes much less difference.

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It depends where you live I suppose. Where I live, really nobody buys a 2WD BMW.

RWD allows you to go faster around a corner. You can really feel how the vehicle starts to suck itself to the ground when you hit the gas rather than breaks.

 

[tga]

RWD allows you to go faster around a corner. You can really feel how the vehicle starts to suck itself to the ground when you hit the gas rather than breaks.

RWD compared to what? FWD or AWD? If you're maintaining neutral throttle through the corner, neither AWD/RWD/FWD is inherently faster. If you're powering through the corner (applying throttle at the apex), AWD > RWD > FWD. AWD lets you apply more power sooner than RWD. You'll exit the turn faster and at a higher speed.

 

[S'toon]

My last vehicle was a 4wd. It did OK in winter in the deep snow. My current car is a RWD. I've only gotten stuck once or twice in the years I've had it. I don't know if it's because it's newer and has ESC, or what, but my new car has had better control in icy conditions than my 4wd did.

When it comes to AWD in the snow, I consider it a nice to have, but it's not critical.

 

[Yggdrasill]

AWD is better, period.

But the number of people who need AWD is miniscule compared to the number of people who have AWD.

 

[brianman]

AWD is better, period.

But the number of people who need AWD is miniscule compared to the number of people who have AWD.

Need is an interesting word at times.

Brian's version:

Seatbelts are better, period.

But the number of people who need seatbelts is miniscule compared to the number of people who have seatbelts.

 

[nwdiver]

Don't forget.... AWD ICE just gets you better traction...

AWD EV gets you;
- More Range
- AWD regen (less tire wear?)
- Better Traction

EVERYONE benefits from 1 & 2... not just people in snowy areas.

 

[JER]

Could the better torque distribution of AWD ever reduce tyre wear enough to be a net TCO reduction over the car's life?

I'd guess this was at least plausible if you had high-end tyres and a love of burying the accelerator pedal.

 

[Red Sage]

To those of you who believe that base Model ≡ must be single motor because: 1) it would be difficult to meet the price point otherwise; or 2) due to price sensitivity within the market range... I rather disagree.

It is much more likely the RWD version will be offered as standard (to start) because the profit margin would be higher and the grand majority of end users do not actually need AWD anyway, anytime, anyhow. Further, it will be RWD to satisfy some of the visceral need to demonstrate the superiority of electric drive over ICE in a more traditional, sporting manner, rear ends hanging out, on a track, to satisfy those who somehow dislike the neutrality of dual motor AWD.

If you take a look at other premium cars sold in the range of $5,000 above or below the intended $35,000 base price of Model ≡, all offer an AWD version. 3-Series, A4, ATS, C-Class, G50, IS, & TLX. The two-wheel drive versions of these cars, whether RWD or FWD are only a vestigial reminder of the beginnings of automotive transport. It is generally understood that you should be able to get into an AWD car within the price range without breaking the bank.

Do keep in mind that I have argued both sides of this debate in times past. I believe both have merit. When it comes to Tesla Model ≡, I think it is rather obvious the result weil be spectacular, no matter what they offer, or when, or why.

 

[igotzzoom]

To those of you who believe that base Model ≡ must be single motor because: 1) it would be difficult to meet the price point otherwise; or 2) due to price sensitivity within the market range... I rather disagree.

It is much more likely the RWD version will be offered as standard (to start) because the profit margin would be higher and the grand majority of end users do not actually need AWD anyway, anytime, anyhow. Further, it will be RWD to satisfy some of the visceral need to demonstrate the superiority of electric drive over ICE in a more traditional, sporting manner, rear ends hanging out, on a track, to satisfy those who somehow dislike the neutrality of dual motor AWD.

If you take a look at other premium cars sold in the range of $5,000 above or below the intended $35,000 base price of Model ≡, all offer an AWD version. 3-Series, A4, ATS, C-Class, G50, IS, & TLX. The two-wheel drive versions of these cars, whether RWD or FWD are only a vestigial reminder of the beginnings of automotive transport. It is generally understood that you should be able to get into an AWD car within the price range without breaking the bank.

Do keep in mind that I have argued both sides of this debate in times past. I believe both have merit. When it comes to Tesla Model ≡, I think it is rather obvious the result weil be spectacular, no matter what they offer, or when, or why.

I'm rather neutral in the matter, since I live in an area that gets approximately 0.00000000001 inches of rainfall a year, and the average temperature is about 74 degrees Fahrenheit. RWD would suit my needs fine. But I could see the appeal of available AWD for drivers in less hospitable climes.

 

[JRP3]

To those of you who believe that base Model ≡ must be single motor because: 1) it would be difficult to meet the price point otherwise; or 2) due to price sensitivity within the market range... I rather disagree.

It is much more likely the RWD version will be offered as standard (to start) because the profit margin would be higher and the grand majority of end users do not actually need AWD anyway, anytime, anyhow.

Those are all essentially the same argument, and I agree with all of them. :wink: Cost is the driving factor.

 

[Kevin Harney]

Those are all essentially the same argument, and I agree with all of them. :wink: Cost is the driving factor.

Elon already stated that it would be a base single motor version and most likely an upgraded dual motor version.

 

[JRP3]

Sure, as was expected. I was just pointing out that Red's argument that it wasn't because of cost didn't hold up to his own argument :wink: