Model 3 - Key Fob yes/no?

[diamond.g]

Well that makes SOME sense, how do you unlock it to let child get something out of the rear opposite door? I now do that with the "button". Do you have to open the drivers door then shut it again? The key fob only lets me unlock the car if I'm standing next to the relevant door button I am in proximity to, this is to prevent people from randomly jumping in from elsewhere.

And how do you again lock the door? Do you have to move away from the car?

On the Model 3, I believe the rear doors will unlock if you are near the car. On my Volt all the doors have buttons and if I am near the car any of the buttons will unlock it. On my VW Golf only the front doors had the Kessy sensors (note that was a US limitation, the Euro version had sensors in all 4 handles) so only the front doors would unlock. I can't speak to Mercedes. My Volt will lock after a few seconds of me getting out and closing the drivers door, the VW required me to touch the handle, the Model 3 should auto lock when you walk away (again using phone key).

Should Tesla replace the key card with a fob the existing functionality should work the same, you would gain the ability to open the frunk (with a button press) that is currently missing on the 3.

 

[JC_FTW]

Simple yes or no, would you like a key fob for your Model 3?


Side question: possible to manufacture an aftermarket fob?

Don't miss a FOB but would love to have car work with Apple Watch instead

 

[Quickstart88]

Tesla is working on a new key fob – potentially for keyless Model 3

 

[Canuck1966]

Tesla is working on a new key fob – potentially for keyless Model 3

This is needed for Canadian model 3 owners to get access to the Summon Feature. So I can’t wait.

 

[timk225]

Didn't read the previous ten pages. The only thing I noticed here is that when I posed this same question over a month ago, my poll was seriously outvoted in favor of not having a fob. Now the fob is winning 60/40.

I see this topic goes back to February. Have minds changed since then?

 

[Adam3]

Wow, I'm shocked the poll is at 60% preferring key fob. That is my preference as well, but I expected the forum to have reverse results.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

More people having more problems for more time, versus optimistic people and the lucky few.

 

[fr100]

Since 21.9, I've opened the door over 200 times in a row without issues so phone key is fine with me. iPhone 8, iOS 11.3.1.

I believe the phone key makes the car impenetrable to the relay attack used to steal Model S/X as well.

 

[TurnFast]

I think the relay attack has more to do with the wireless key technology used than the fob. The model 3 key fob would be Bluetooth based so if they can relay attack a Bluetooth key fob (model S key fob is not Bluetooth based) then they can relay attack your phone.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

Both rumored 3 fob and phone key work on BLE. So a relay attack should work for both unless there is extremely tight timing of data exchanges that can determine if physical distance of phone/fob is greater than X (essentially, round trip message exchange 'ping' time, which relay attack can't reduce only increase). I'm not sure if this is possible with the sort of low power low computational frequency hardware you would have in a fob, and I'm even doubtful about it being reliable for on a phone...

 

[diamond.g]

Both rumored 3 fob and phone key work on BLE. So a relay attack should work for both unless there is extremely tight timing of data exchanges that can determine if physical distance of phone/fob is greater than X (essentially, round trip message exchange 'ping' time, which relay attack can't reduce only increase). I'm not sure if this is possible with the sort of low power low computational frequency hardware you would have in a fob, and I'm even doubtful about it being reliable for on a phone...

Shouldn’t the calculation take place on the car side? Saves the fob from having to have more processing power.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

Shouldn’t the calculation take place on the car side? Saves the fob from having to have more processing power.

You still have to receive, decode, process the incoming message to generate a reply, encode and transmit it. If it's a simple 'ping' without any cleverness that makes it hard to do without the actual phone/fob, then the relay attack can just do the ping reply without even relaying it (since anything simple would be figured out and emulated without having to relay it).

It's hard to be strong against relays (via detecting timing) and also against simple emulation / cracking the protocol at the same time.

 

[diamond.g]

You still have to receive, decode, process the incoming message to generate a reply, encode and transmit it. If it's a simple 'ping' without any cleverness that makes it hard to do without the actual phone/fob, then the relay attack can just do the ping reply without even relaying it (since anything simple would be figured out and emulated without having to relay it).

It's hard to be strong against relays (via detecting timing) and also against simple emulation / cracking the protocol at the same time.

Once the BT connection is made why would you have to do all of that handshaking again? Seems like that would waste power in the fob. Or am I misunderstanding how BT differs from “regular” RF?

 

[BioSehnsucht]

BT is just an underlying protocol, like Wifi or Ethernet. On top of that will be whatever security magic Tesla implements to authenticate the phone (or fob) to the car, etc. As part of that magic, ideally, you'd try to block relay attacks by having strict timing requirements that relays would violate, however that isn't easy to do in low powered / slow devices, if you also have to do some kind of secure exchange (which would happen every time you approach, possibly repeatedly).

If you have the timing protection but not secure exchange, the timing protection is pointless because there's no point doing relay attacks when you can simply snoop an exchange and then replay or otherwise emulate it.

If you have no timing protection but secure exchange, relay attacks can work.

So, ideally you'd have both sorts of protection, but it's not so easy to do with something like a key fob. A phone is easier, but it could lead to potentially unreliable results (if other things on the phone are stealing CPU cycles, sometimes the timing attack protection falsely stops the exchange because it took too long and thinks the phone is really farther than it should be).

That's not to say it can't be done - just it isn't easy.

 

[Ken43]

I've owned a model 3 for one month. I'm surprised to say this, but if someone asked me today what feature the model 3 lacked I missed the most it would be a key fob.

Prior to ownership, I thought it would be something like Android Auto / Apple car Play / or blind spot monitoring. I like the idea of a phone as my only key, but my Android Motorola G5 Plus simply is does not work greater than 90% of time.

 

[Msjulie]

I like the idea of a phone as my only key, but my Android Motorola G5 Plus simply is does not work greater than 90% of time.

Maybe I'm the exception but since recent software updates (like early summer) my iPhone 8 has worked w/o errors. No jinxing please !

 

[chronopc]

Maybe I'm the exception but since recent software updates (like early summer) my iPhone 8 has worked w/o errors. No jinxing please !

Same here. The update for Android puts a permanent notification and now allows you to unlock, open trunk, open frunk from the notification. Key works flawlessly now.

But, I will still get a fob if they ever offer one.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

I've owned a model 3 for one month. I'm surprised to say this, but if someone asked me today what feature the model 3 lacked I missed the most it would be a key fob.

Prior to ownership, I thought it would be something like Android Auto / Apple car Play / or blind spot monitoring. I like the idea of a phone as my only key, but my Android Motorola G5 Plus simply is does not work greater than 90% of time.

Many of us would be ecstatic to get only 90% success rate.

 

[BobbyKings]

Keys and key fobs are for 50+ ppl, aren't they?

 

[RayK]

Keys and key fobs are for 50+ ppl, aren't they?

I think that there are much more than 50 people wanting a Model 3 fob . I'm one of them.