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Model 3 Performance Battery Degradation One Month (Story)

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Cool... hey, when's your new movie coming out?

Since you asked.

Should be Feb 2020 now, and though not official it will probably be called "Bond 25" but don't hold me to this info. Yea Yea I know it should have been in out in 2019 but so damn busy with this model 3 filming is behind. Hopefully the 90% charges get me to the set on time otherwise more delays...
 
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Kim at Like Tesla replied to my request for a new shot after the reset.

So she was at 240 mile @ 90% (and 260 @100%) and now she is at 278 mile @ 90% after Tesla reset her BMS.

Here it is after a reset at 90%. Previously was around 240 or so for 90%.
DtM_3ZAU4AELTW7.jpg


So we see no physical change here, no new battery, just resetting the software and blam all back to normal.
 
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The only way to actually measure degradation is to charge to 100% and drive it down to close to 0%. (Like Bjorn does in his videos.)

Of course for that to provide a meaningful number you have to have a comparable drive pre-degradation that was driven similarly. (Again like Bjorn does driving the same stretch of road at the same speed in a similar temperature.)

But of course nobody is going to put in 9+ hours of testing to check out their degradation on a regular basis. (Charging, driving, and then charging again.)

You can try to charge to 90%, drive down to 10% and use the trip meter energy consumed to estimate the other 20% but we know that the trip meter is not accurate. (Look at the person that towed their Model 3 while regening for 1 mile and the trip meter showed that after driving 15+ miles that there was still a net energy gain for the trip. Of course the range meter showed that he had used range. So the information in the car doesn't agree with itself, though from that test I would say the range meter is way more accurate than the trip meter.)
 
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but we know that the trip meter is not accurate.
After six months and 16,000 kms of data, I've come to the conclusion that the built in wh/km readings in the odometers only track total energy being used while the drive wheels are turning.

My (warm operations) spread between what the car says (total kWhs used) versus my two inline meters on my wall connector circuit (plus any uplift while away from home) is 17%.

I'm about to put my Nov 2018 numbers into my spreadsheet tonight.

With much colder temps (operating as cold as -12c) and many short trips, etc, etc, etc, my numbers spread is looking closer to 37%.

I wish the built in odometers would capture total energy being used while the car is "in gear".
 
Did my second 100% charge yesterday (up from about 70%). I got 296 miles again, so no improvement. Other than twice charging to 100%, I have always charged to 90% (generally every day). I have never supercharged. 1666 miles on the car.
Following up on my own story (P3D+). I did a third 100% charge (from about 20%) right after I got FW 2018.42.4, so not sure which made the most difference, but I'm now getting good range on my charges, just like when the car was new. I have also started charging every few days instead of every day, so the BMS is seeing a wider range of data. Generally, I now try to go below 200 miles before charging to 90%, and below 100 miles once in a while (~2 weeks).

All charges are to 90% (3 were 100%) from my home NEMA 14-50 at 32A. I still haven't supercharged. Current mileage is 2509.

Here are my recent charge cycles:
Code:
11/3/18 Got FW 2018.42.4
11/4/18 100% 305 miles
11/6/18 90% 277
11/10/18 90% 275
11/16/18 90% 276
11/19/18 90% 276
11/21/18 90% 276
11/26/18 90% 277
11/29/18 90% 278 (from 121)
11/30/18 90% 278 (from ~200)
278 @ 90% is ~309 @ 100%. Seems to be a good trend. I will assume they improved the BMS algorithm that estimates charge state of the battery, and didn't just fudge the numbers. ;)
 
For me the biggest change was the latest FW clearly since receiving my 100% range has gone up considerably. So I have gained 6 miles, my charges actually go to the setting. Here is one thing I really noticed in the past only when set to 100% did the charge take longer then the est. So lets say I set to 100% and it said 1 hour, if it was not at 100% in one hour it would keep taking 5 min longer, and keep extending until 100%. When I was set to say 90% if it said 1 hour it mostly was done in 1 hour and if it was 88% 89% it stopped I guess it thought close enough I'm done. Now with every charge since 44.2 if i am set to 90% and it says 1 hour, if it is not @ 90% in one hour it just sits with 5 min remain until it gets all the way to 90%. This could take an extra 10 - 20 min but it does not just stop at 89% anymore it makes sure it stops at 90%. So for sure with 44.2 they have changed the charging system operation. I am starting to think they are recommending 90% and working towards adjusting the charging algorithm to keep the battery balanced when charged to 90% irrespective of how low you go. This would make sense for a mass market car this way no matter what ppl are doing you have a single recommendation that works for most all. Anyways just my observation and opinion, I think Tesla is working towards improvements and it shows.

Off topic but what I don't like is the cold weather improvements now my passengers front window randomly rolls down all the way when we enter the car. So it should roll down an inch and it just goes all the way for no reason.



Screen Shot 2018-12-01 at 10.43.20 AM.png
Screen Shot 2018-12-01 at 10.42.31 AM.png
 
BTW Kim has been tweeting Elon and he answered.

Elon Musk‏Verified account @elonmusk
Replying to @LikeTeslaKim
Not worth going below 80% imo. Even 90% is still fine. Also, no issue going to 5% or lower SoC.

I'm not an expert does anyone know what SoC means? I was thinking Same old Crap?

Anyways sounds good, I take this as just charge the car to 90%, drive it down to whatever level you like, while you enjoy, charge and repeat, enjoy again...
 
After six months and 16,000 kms of data, I've come to the conclusion that the built in wh/km readings in the odometers only track total energy being used while the drive wheels are turning.

My (warm operations) spread between what the car says (total kWhs used) versus my two inline meters on my wall connector circuit (plus any uplift while away from home) is 17%.

I'm about to put my Nov 2018 numbers into my spreadsheet tonight.

With much colder temps (operating as cold as -12c) and many short trips, etc, etc, etc, my numbers spread is looking closer to 37%.

I wish the built in odometers would capture total energy being used while the car is "in gear".

This has been the case unfortunately with all Teslas since day one. The EPA takes charging losses into account as it measures energy taken from the wall when doing their tests.

To be fair, a trip meter is only supposed to measure the trip, not losses for preheating or stops. I just with Tesla would simply show the total energy used regardless of what the car is doing. On my Model S I have been using 'Scan My Tesla' to read the CAN bus data where I can see all that info. So the data is all there, just not on the normal UI.
 
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BTW Kim has been tweeting Elon and he answered.

Elon Musk‏Verified account @elonmusk
Not worth going below 80% imo. Even 90% is still fine. Also, no issue going to 5% or lower SoC.

You have to take those official recommendations with a grain of salt. There is countless studies showing that charging a Lithium battery to a lower state of charge is better for it's overall life. The charge limit slider in the car goes down to 50% for exactly that reason. It is better to charge to only 50% rather than 80%. When yor daily commute uses 20% capacity, it's better to charge to drive it from 50% to 30% daily than 90% to 70%.

Now the reason Tesla doesn't recommend that is because it would have all owner worried. They would have that feeling in the back of their head that they are harming the battery every time they charge it to 80% or 90%. And to be fair, that would be counter productive. The difference in degradation between charging daily to 100% and 90% is significant. The difference between 90% and 80% is less significant. The difference between 80% and 70% is even less and so on.

I charge my car up to whatever miles I need the next day plus 20-30% SoC. So If I need 100 miles I charge it to 150-160 miles. If I don't need it at all, I charge it to 50% (lowest setting). If I go on a long trip, I charge it to 100% just before I leave. If I'm unsure how much I need to drive the next day I usually go with 80% or 90% SoC.
 
You have to take those official recommendations with a grain of salt. There is countless studies showing that charging a Lithium battery to a lower state of charge is better for it's overall life. The charge limit slider in the car goes down to 50% for exactly that reason.
No I don’t think that’s the reason. Recall the early Model S firmware had two charging settings, daily (92%) and trip (100%). When a firmware update introduced the slider, everyone assumed it was in reaction to the EPA rule that if an EV had two charge settings they would average the two to get the range rating. This is what happened to the Leaf. By not having a slider there weren’t two ranges that could be averaged so Tesla could market the 100% range.

Having a 50% setting is good for long term storage, but otherwise I think the lower percentages of the slider just causes more unnecessary battery obsession and anxiety.
 
No I don’t think that’s the reason. Recall the early Model S firmware had two charging settings, daily (92%) and trip (100%). When a firmware update introduced the slider, everyone assumed it was in reaction to the EPA rule that if an EV had two charge settings they would average the two to get the range rating. This is what happened to the Leaf. By not having a slider there weren’t two ranges that could be averaged so Tesla could market the 100% range.

Having a 50% setting is good for long term storage, but otherwise I think the lower percentages of the slider just causes more unnecessary battery obsession and anxiety.

I think the 50% setting for long term storage is the most correct reason as there is plenty of data to support that these batteries are most preserved and could theoretically last forever if maintained at 50%. The other settings are probably as TesasEV says EPA rule related...
 
Elon Musk‏Verified account @elonmusk
Replying to @LikeTeslaKim
Not worth going below 80% imo. Even 90% is still fine. Also, no issue going to 5% or lower SoC.

I have a long road trip coming up I was a bit concerned that some legs will drop me really low between supercharges exp with the cold weather. I was going to try to maintain no less than 20% since I was worried that dropping to 5% could be not good. But seems Elon says even dropping below 5% is ok no issue so I guess as long as you make it to the next charger your ok even with 1%. But I do believe that if you drop below a certain level it takes longer to recharge. Not sure first big road trip coming up soon so guess I am going to find out.
 
Elon Musk‏Verified account @elonmusk
Replying to @LikeTeslaKim
Not worth going below 80% imo. Even 90% is still fine. Also, no issue going to 5% or lower SoC.

But seems Elon says even dropping below 5% is ok no issue so I guess as long as you make it to the next charger your ok even with 1%. But I do believe that if you drop below a certain level it takes longer to recharge. Not sure first big road trip coming up soon so guess I am going to find out.
The bigger problem with dropping below 5% is the SOC is only an estimate, it can’t be measured directly, and you may be closer to 0 than you think. Although some owners have driven past 0 and think it’s something to brag about, others have had their car shut down before getting to 0.
 
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Elon Musk‏Verified account @elonmusk
Replying to @LikeTeslaKim
Not worth going below 80% imo. Even 90% is still fine. Also, no issue going to 5% or lower SoC.

I have a long road trip coming up I was a bit concerned that some legs will drop me really low between supercharges exp with the cold weather. I was going to try to maintain no less than 20% since I was worried that dropping to 5% could be not good. But seems Elon says even dropping below 5% is ok no issue so I guess as long as you make it to the next charger your ok even with 1%. But I do believe that if you drop below a certain level it takes longer to recharge. Not sure first big road trip coming up soon so guess I am going to find out.

Yes running it down low is not an issue as the battery actually has aprox 8% left when the car shows 0 miles. It's a safety feature to protect the battery from getting damaged. So when you reach 0 miles on your car, no worries, the battery is fine. I would just avoid hard acceleration. Of course it's risky to plan on arriving very low. If you just miss an exit off the freeway and have to take a few miles of detour, you might be in trouble. And yes the battery will charge a little slower when below 8%, but it's not exactly slow. I think it starts with 60 kW.
 
You have to take those official recommendations with a grain of salt. There is countless studies showing that charging a Lithium battery to a lower state of charge is better for it's overall life. The charge limit slider in the car goes down to 50% for exactly that reason. It is better to charge to only 50% rather than 80%. When yor daily commute uses 20% capacity, it's better to charge to drive it from 50% to 30% daily than 90% to 70%.

Now the reason Tesla doesn't recommend that is because it would have all owner worried. They would have that feeling in the back of their head that they are harming the battery every time they charge it to 80% or 90%. And to be fair, that would be counter productive. The difference in degradation between charging daily to 100% and 90% is significant. The difference between 90% and 80% is less significant. The difference between 80% and 70% is even less and so on.

I charge my car up to whatever miles I need the next day plus 20-30% SoC. So If I need 100 miles I charge it to 150-160 miles. If I don't need it at all, I charge it to 50% (lowest setting). If I go on a long trip, I charge it to 100% just before I leave. If I'm unsure how much I need to drive the next day I usually go with 80% or 90% SoC.

My understanding is that 50% state of charge is the least wear on the battery. So, you'd put less wear going 60% to 40% each day, than 50% to 30%. However, there is a reserve held to keep the battery from bricking, so the real numbers are probably somewhere around 55% to 35% if you want to optimize for least wear.

Some years ago, Tesla shared metrics on testing done for the 18650 batteries in the S and X. The wear was roughly logarithmic to 10%. For example, charging everyday to 100% and draining to 0%, the battery might last 700 cycles. However, 90% to 10% cycles may have a lifespan of 7,000 cycles. 80% to 20% -> 70,000 cycles, and so forth.

If you charge every night, that's 365 cycles per year. So the 100% to 0% usage might get you 2 years of life on the battery. 90-10% might get you 20 years. etc. That's probably enough for most people.

My Model S is a June 2013 build. I charge to 90% nightly. I've done several 100% charges and probably about 35,000 miles of road trips around the USA using superchargers. I'm the second owner and do not know the original owner's charging patterns. My 100% is now 243 miles. The original rating was 265 miles. So, about 8.3% degradation on a 5.5 year old pack with 102,500 miles.

It's my opinion that 90% nightly charging is fine for the majority of owners.
 
My understanding is that 50% state of charge is the least wear on the battery. So, you'd put less wear going 60% to 40% each day, than 50% to 30%. However, there is a reserve held to keep the battery from bricking, so the real numbers are probably somewhere around 55% to 35% if you want to optimize for least wear.

I have heard Tesla stores and ships batteries at 30%. Might also be a safety precaution so there is less energy is in the battery when something bad happens. Either way, the difference between 30 or 50 is probably minimal.

Some years ago, Tesla shared metrics on testing done for the 18650 batteries in the S and X. The wear was roughly logarithmic to 10%. For example, charging everyday to 100% and draining to 0%, the battery might last 700 cycles. However, 90% to 10% cycles may have a lifespan of 7,000 cycles. 80% to 20% -> 70,000 cycles, and so forth.

Yes that's what my understanding is as well. Stay away from the extremes and the life span increases dramatically. And since Tesla limits the discharge to 8% anyways driving the battery to a low level should be just fine.
 
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