Model 3 "Performance Brake Calipers" just red or different altogether?

[Zaphod]

Went to a Tesla store today and a manger told me the brakes are the same on the Dual Motor Performance and with the Performance Package, as currently on the Model 3 in the showroom with RWD. Only difference is the Performance Package have red calipers. For this reason, I immediately deleted the 5k Performance Package. Think 18" wheels will be smoother than 20" and I don't really want the spoiler and metal petals. I drive a 2004 Audi S4 with 18" low profile tires in the summer and put 17" rims on with winter tires. The ride is a little smoother with the 17" wheels. Willing to give up a little handling for smoother ride. Just hope the ride quality isn't much rougher than my S4.

That manager is 100% incorrect. RWD brakes are completely different.

 

[MrPinrel]

Haven't been on the forum in a long while as I've been on FB groups instead, but I'm working on figuring this out. It came up because I posted that calling Tesla, they allowed me to take off the Performance Upgrade but add back on 19's for $1500. Somebody mentioned that I'd lose the Performance brakes. Frankly, the ambiguity from Tesla is really irritating me. I made another call back to Tesla, and after being put on hold for the person to get answers from somebody else, she said the "performance caliper" had something to do with heat. In the end, she is going to get more clarification of exactly what is different and call me back. If the caliper is indeed different, it has larger pistons and likely different pads. One said that they think the performance brakes look bigger in the configurator, but since it is a rendering, I take appearances like that with a grain of salt between the 18's and 20's. If it is in fact an entire BBK upgrade, the $5000 is worth it, yet why would they not promote that as a bullet point of what is included in the Performance Upgrade?! It boggles the mind. Anyway, if anybody else get concrete answers, post away in here. I'll do the same.


Put this way, the package isn't a terrible deal. The other option on the brakes is to get the lighter weight and larger 365mm rotors from Mountain Pass ($1400) and some upgraded pads. Get some $50 caliper paint while you're already working on them.

$2000 20" over 18" upgrade cost
$1500 CF spoiler (RPM's is $999 plus install and not as nice)
$100 pedals
$1400 BBK w/ 1 piece rotors
$5000

If the rotor is in fact larger, Tesla was ready to hose people who specified Performance with 18" wheels and pay the same because larger rotors likely wouldn't fit. They don't with the Mountain Pass rotors. MPP Page Mill 365mm Big Brake Kit

I am intrigued by this idea of ordering the performance version with the 19 inch wheels instead of either the 18s or the 20s. I don’t really care about the brake upgrade or the pedals but i like the sportier look of the wheel upgrade, especially with the white exterior.

Something to think about over the next few days!

I wonder if there will be an impact in resale value for performance models that are not fully “decked out”...

 

[JeffC]

I am intrigued by this idea of ordering the performance version with the 19 inch wheels instead of either the 18s or the 20s. I don’t really care about the brake upgrade or the pedals but i like the sportier look of the wheel upgrade, especially with the white exterior.

Something to think about over the next few days!

I wonder if there will be an impact in resale value for performance models that are not fully “decked out”...

Please see my long reply on the previous page. The performance of the Performance model is so high that it greatly benefits from the largest wheels and shortest-sidewall, stickiest tires that can fit. The 19s would not really be worth the effort in that sense. Very likely that is why Tesla does *not* offer them.

P.S. Still no answer on the rotor question from Tesla. Again the rotor size may be far more important than the brake calipers, as Sasha's racing experience and measurements indicate. References MPP Page Mill 365mm Big Brake Kit and Gridlife and the First Model 3 In Competition Worldwide

 

[Daniel in SD]

Please see my long reply on the previous page. The performance of the Performance model is so high that it greatly benefits from the largest wheels and shortest-sidewall, stickiest tires that can fit. The 19s would not really be worth the effort in that sense. Very likely that is why Tesla does *not* offer them.

P.S. Still no answer on the rotor question from Tesla. Again the rotor size may be far more important than the brake calipers, as Sasha's racing experience and measurements indicate. References MPP Page Mill 365mm Big Brake Kit and Gridlife and the First Model 3 In Competition Worldwide

Generally the smallest wheels that will fit over the brakes are the fastest. No reason not to offer 19" wheels if they fit. You can get super sticky tires for 13" wheels...

 

[Petra]

The performance of the Performance model is so high that it greatly benefits from the largest wheels and shortest-sidewall, stickiest tires that can fit.

You're overselling this a bit... the car is an M3 competitor, at best. Also, @Daniel in SD is right. If you want to go fast, you get the smallest, lightest wheels that'll clear the brakes and install the widest, stickiest rubber you can get your hands on (also, preferably, the lightest). This is part of the reason people are so interested in the specifics of the brakes: figuring out minimum wheel size. I'm pretty sure someone already managed to get a set of 255/35R18 DOT legal race slicks onto their RWD Model 3 and, while not a wheel diameter decrease, that extra width will help.

 

[Daniel in SD]

You're overselling this a bit... the car is an M3 competitor, at best. Also, @Daniel in SD is right. If you want to go fast, you get the smallest, lightest wheels that'll clear the brakes and install the widest, stickiest rubber you can get your hands on (also, preferably, the lightest). This is part of the reason people are so interested in the specifics of the brakes: figuring out minimum wheel size. I'm pretty sure someone already managed to get a set of 255/35R18 DOT legal race slicks onto their RWD Model 3 and, while not a wheel diameter decrease, that extra width will help.

The guy who just set the Model 3 Laguna Seca record was running 255/35R18 Hoosier A7s. The Model 3 really needs wider tires since it's such a porker. The Camaro ZL1 runs 305 width in the rear, 285 front.

 

[JeffC]

Hi Guys, I understand the points about light wheels. We're talking about a relatively heavy street car on performance-oriented, non-soft-compound, DOT, (i.e., normal high performance) *street* tires that *might* be taken to a track day for most people. For a more racy, relatively light car, sure, put slicks on 13s. PM3 is pretty clearly not that.

For factory wheels/tires, I hope you agree the 20s with Pilot Sport 4S should outperform the 18s with hard energy efficiency biased tires, on the factory Performance suspension.

 

[juanmedina]

never mind

 

[Petra]

For factory wheels/tires, I hope you agree the 20s with Pilot Sport 4S should outperform the 18s with hard energy efficiency biased tires, on the factory Performance suspension.

Yes, though that's not really what you were saying with the wheel comments. Also, it ignores the more budget friendly approach of replacing the MXM4 tires with Pilot Sport 4S tires on the aero wheels. ~$850 + mount/balance and you preserve the range advantage of the aerodynamic wheels, likely end up with better ride quality, and comparable performance. My main issue is with insisting the huge wheels are essential, unknown brake details notwithstanding.

 

[Shizzrock]

I just wish there was more info on the brakes, which appear to be the weak link on this car. I'd be fine with 18" wheels as long as the brakes were substantially upgraded. If not, I would reluctantly throw down for the 20s. Because with the speed available on the P, 132 feet is an embarrassing stopping distance from 60 and probably dangerous. But it would be nice if there were ANY other details, such as stiffer springs, sway bars, that would actually classify the model as a sports tuned upgrade.

 

[Knightshade]

. Because with the speed available on the P, 132 feet is an embarrassing stopping distance from 60 and probably dangerous. .

So two things don't make sense in your post.... first- the top speed is only 10 mph higher on the P... (and with or without it is well in excess of any safe public road driving anywhere in the country anyway no matter the brakes)

Second-Bigger brakes don't reduce stopping distance from 60.

The brakes don't stop the car- the tires do.


If you want to stop shorter in normal use, you need stickier tires, not bigger brakes.

Bigger brakes can be useful for other things, almost 100% of them relevant to abusing your brakes on a race track though, not any sort of normal street use.

I highly recommend this article for a much better understanding of what each part of the braking system does, and doesn't actually do for you, and what brake upgrades to any of them can, and can't, do for you.

GRM Pulp Friction

 

[Shizzrock]

So two things don't make sense in your post.... first- the top speed is only 10 mph higher on the P... (and with or without it is well in excess of any safe public road driving anywhere in the country anyway no matter the brakes)

Second-Bigger brakes don't reduce stopping distance from 60.

The brakes don't stop the car- the tires do.


If you want to stop shorter in normal use, you need stickier tires, not bigger brakes.

Bigger brakes can be useful for other things, almost 100% of them relevant to abusing your brakes on a race track though, not any sort of normal street use.

I highly recommend this article for a much better understanding of what each part of the braking system does, and doesn't actually do for you, and what brake upgrades to any of them can, and can't, do for you.

GRM Pulp Friction

Fair enough, but I still don't know what the difference is between the P version with 18" wheels and the 5K upgrade other than the obvious items mentioned in the website. When you configure, before you add the 5K upgrade, it says "additional upgrades, exclusive to performance". Even if the brakes don't decrease stopping distance, there is a difference.

 

[JeffC]

Fair enough, but I still don't know what the difference is between the P version with 18" wheels and the 5K upgrade other than the obvious items mentioned in the website. When you configure, before you add the 5K upgrade, it says "additional upgrades, exclusive to performance". Even if the brakes don't decrease stopping distance, there is a difference.

The main difference larger brake rotors make is in having higher heat capacity for repeated high speed braking on a race track. They make little to no difference on the street. Design details of the internal vents in the brake disc can also help them dissipate heat better.

Knightshade is exactly right that stickier tires affect braking distances most, everything else being unchanged. It's quite possible that the 19s and 20s with more performance biased tires have shorter braking distance than the Aeros with energy efficiency biased tires, at the cost of a very little energy efficiency.

 

[JeffC]

Yes, though that's not really what you were saying with the wheel comments. Also, it ignores the more budget friendly approach of replacing the MXM4 tires with Pilot Sport 4S tires on the aero wheels. ~$850 + mount/balance and you preserve the range advantage of the aerodynamic wheels, likely end up with better ride quality, and comparable performance. My main issue is with insisting the huge wheels are essential, unknown brake details notwithstanding.

Agree that 4S on the Aero wheels would bias towards performance more than the stock energy efficiency biased tires, but I am 100% certain that the lower profile 4S on the 20s would perform better, particularly in lateral acceleration, due to the wider footprint. They would also be more responsive due to the significantly shorter sidewall. And yes, it would be a matter of degree, but the difference would not be too small.

 

[Shizzrock]

The main difference larger brake rotors make is in having higher heat capacity for repeated high speed braking on a race track. They make little to no difference on the street. Design details of the internal vents in the brake disc can also help them dissipate heat better.

Knightshade is exactly right that stickier tires affect braking distances most, everything else being unchanged. It's quite possible that the 19s and 20s with more performance biased tires have shorter braking distance than the Aeros and energy efficiency biased tires, at the cost of some energy efficiency.

That's great, but I'm still no closer to an answer regarding the non-5K package. And no one knows what "additional upgrades, exclusive to performance" means, or if it's leftover from when there was no 5K package and the non 5k package just gets a faster 0-60 time and nothing else.

 

[Shizzrock]

Agree that 4S on the Aero wheels would bias towards performance more than the stock energy efficiency biased tires, but I am 100% certain that the lower profile 4S on the 20s would perform better, particularly in lateral acceleration, due to the wider footprint. They would also be more responsive due to the significantly shorter sidewall. And yes, it would be a matter of degree, but the difference would not be too small.

You would also be adding more unsprung weight

 

[JeffC]

That's great, but I'm still no closer to an answer regarding the non-5K package. And no one knows what "additional upgrades, exclusive to performance" means, or if it's leftover from when there was no 5K package and the non 5k package just gets a faster 0-60 time and nothing else.

You won't need the larger rotors unless you're on a race track. However if the measurements someone made of the image of the rotors are correct, the larger rotors might fit on the 18s and be included on all Performance Model 3s, even those without the Performance Upgrade option. The calipers in the option may simply be red instead of black, but in any case, the rotors make much more difference *for racetrack driving* than the calipers. Reference: MPP Page Mill 365mm Big Brake Kit

For practical street performance, the wheels and tires will make a much bigger difference. Therefore the wheel and tire upgrade would be more relevant. Worrying about the brakes is the wrong focus unless you're on a race track.

TLDR; The major benefit of the Performance Upgrade option is likely the better wheels and tires.

And you can buy similar performance from aftermarket wheels and tires, for example from Tire Rack for about $3k. Adding those to the "base" Performance version would be a meaningful upgrade, and probably capture almost all of the Performance Upgrade option practical benefits. I definitely recommend the factory size 20 inch Pilot Sport 4S.

Also if you're interested in going fast safely, please attend a performance driving or racing school. Driving skills are worth 100x performance hardware. A skilled driver in a slow car will beat an average driver in a fast car every day of the week.

 

[CdgaBill]

That's great, but I'm still no closer to an answer regarding the non-5K package. And no one knows what "additional upgrades, exclusive to performance" means, or if it's leftover from when there was no 5K package and the non 5k package just gets a faster 0-60 time and nothing else.

Yeah, even though it's under the heading of "includes", I actually read that as simply unlocking additional items you can spend money on, but only for performance currently (in particular, the white interior and the 20" performance package), as opposed to anything actually on the vehicle itself.

 

[Petra]

Agree that 4S on the Aero wheels would bias towards performance more than the stock energy efficiency biased tires, but I am 100% certain that the lower profile 4S on the 20s would perform better, particularly in lateral acceleration, due to the wider footprint. They would also be more responsive due to the significantly shorter sidewall. And yes, it would be a matter of degree, but the difference would not be too small.

Wider footprint? They're both 235 width tires! Assuming the rubber compounds perform the same, despite the Tesla OE version having a higher treadwear rating, the primary difference would just be the sidewall height/stiffness and every track test I've seen comparing 45 aspect to 35 aspect tires of the same width has put the difference in lap time inside of 2% in the dry. While the advantage still goes to the shorter sidewall in the dry, that can flip in the wet depending on the tire. Point being, the performance differences are small unless driving competitively and the difference in cost and other trades (aero, ride quality, etc.) is significant. If you're driving competitively, then you'll likely be using more track appropriate tires in non-OE wheel and tire sizes anyway.

 

[Shizzrock]

You won't need the larger rotors unless you're on a race track. However if the measurements someone made of the image of the rotors are correct, the larger rotors might fit on the 18s and be included on all Performance Model 3s, even those without the Performance Upgrade option. The calipers in the option may simply be red instead of black, but in any case, the rotors make much more difference *for racetrack driving* than the calipers. Reference: MPP Page Mill 365mm Big Brake Kit

For practical street performance, the wheels and tires will make a much bigger difference. Therefore the wheel and tire upgrade would be more relevant. Worrying about the brakes is the wrong focus unless you're on a race track.

TLDR; The major benefit of the Performance Upgrade option is likely the better wheels and tires.

And you can buy similar performance from aftermarket wheels and tires, for example from Tire Rack for about $3k. Adding those to the "base" Performance version would be a meaningful upgrade, and probably capture almost all of the Performance Upgrade option practical benefits. I definitely recommend the factory size 20 inch Pilot Sport 4S.

Also if you're interested in going fast safely, please attend a performance driving or racing school. Driving skills are worth 100x performance hardware. A skilled driver in a slow car will beat an average driver in a fast car every day of the week.

I'm "interested" in what kind of upgrades come with the non-5K upgrade model, which you can't answer. I'm not interested in being patronized, or having someone assume they know what my intentions are.