Model 3 "Performance Brake Calipers" just red or different altogether?

[JeffC]

but the 19" wheels aren't staggered. You could just as easily say the 20" wheels aren't staggered from this information.

275 mm rear tires would not physically fit on 8.5 inch wheels.

Also if you use the Tire Rack wheel configurator for staggered wheels, it shows wider rear wheels.

 

[JeffC]

My thinking on drive electronics for P:

SiC is more efficient, so they would use that on all units for range (RWD, AWD,and P+). The gate drive/ switching characteristics are also different, so if P were different that's double the designs to validate and parts to build.

If P were the only one with SiC and they bin sort them, then either they scrap the non-P rated ones, or put them in R/AWD cars. So then there would be some R/AWD cars with SiC and some without. That is a bit of a config management nightmare.

Due to the integration of electronics and motor as the powertrain, it might also trigger the need for a separate VIN code for that motor type (low performance SiC vs Si). As it is, the VIN decoder only has single and dual motors, so either the released decoder is not updated (unlikely given they are in production now), or the drive units are physically identical for AWD and P.

All good points. It is possible all the Model 3 inverters are SiC and the non-P cars get the lower bin ones. But that would seem strange given the wording of Elon's tweet. FWIW I kind of doubt that minutae such as the transistor type in the inverters would warrant a different VIN code. It's possible the whole Performance version doesn't get a different VIN code, given that they haven't been seen yet. Dual motor definitely gets a different VIN digit.

Having a different part number for a P inverter wouldn't not seem too hard or burdensome. There are circa 10,000 parts in a car. 10,001 isn't too much harder.

But most of all it's odd that Elon would call out SiC for both the front and rear inverters if it wasn't a special feature of P.

Bottom line, the P inverters do provide more power, and that's probably what matters the most.

P.S. It's possible the SiC inverters are more efficient (since Silicon Carbide transistors are generally more efficient) and that's how Performance still gets 310 miles of range even with the less aerodynamic 20 inch wheels. It's also possible 310 for the P is rated with the Aero wheels, but most Ps should get the 20s if people actually wanted to be able to use the higher performance better.

 

[FlatSix911]

Please see my long reply on the previous page. The performance of the Performance model is so high that it greatly benefits from the largest wheels and shortest-sidewall, stickiest tires that can fit. The 19s would not really be worth the effort in that sense. Very likely that is why Tesla does *not* offer them.

P.S. Still no answer on the rotor question from Tesla. Again the rotor size may be far more important than the brake calipers, as Sasha's racing experience and measurements indicate. References MPP Page Mill 365mm Big Brake Kit and Gridlife and the First Model 3 In Competition Worldwide

The guy who just set the Model 3 Laguna Seca record was running 255/35R18 Hoosier A7s. The Model 3 really needs wider tires since it's such a porker. The Camaro ZL1 runs 305 width in the rear, 285 front.

Tesla Model 3 with small mods sets new record at Laguna race track

 

[JeffC]

Tesla Model 3 with small mods sets new record at Laguna race track

Apples and oranges. The record was set with soft compound racing slicks. The Michelin Pilot Sport 4S is a practically streetable, non-racing compound, treaded, street tire.

Here's the racing slick he used. It has a 40 wear rating, meaning it's very soft compound. Street tires are about 10x that, are harder, and last much longer.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tire...sidewall=Blackwall&partnum=535ZR8A7&tab=Sizes

Slicks are not legal for driving on public roads because they have no tread. They also don't work very well in rain, etc.

I'm not debating that one can't put slicks on at a race track. Of course one can. I'm talking about trackable street tires. Again, apples and oranges.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Technically Hoosier A7s are street legal. Those little notches are "tread". Haha. But yeah the manufacturer doesn't recommend it.
My predictions:
1. All Model 3s have silicon carbide inverters. More efficient and cheaper than having a bigger battery and more cooling.
2. The Performance version will not have staggered wheels. The Tesla specific P4S tires are only available in one size. Staggered wheels are dumb on an AWD car anyway.
3. The rear motor of the Performance version will produce only marginally more power than an LR. 0-60 of 3.5s vs. 5.1s only requires 50% more power, that power will come from the front motor.
4. The spoiler will have no measurable effect on performance
5. The Tesla specific P4S will have lower rolling resistance and lower traction as indicated by their higher treadwear rating.
6. I'm not sure about suspension. All Model S's have the same suspension so I'm leaning towards the Model 3 being the same.
7. I think the bigger brakes will probably be specific to the Performance Upgrade package but I hope they're included without it because that's what I've ordered.
8. The top speed difference is just software if it even exists at all.
9. The next performance Model 3 will be (more) awesome! This one seems like a way to pump up Q3 profits.

 

[FlatSix911]

Apples and oranges. The record was set with soft compound racing slicks. The Michelin Pilot Sport 4S is a practically streetable, non-racing compound, treaded, street tire.

Here's the racing slick he used. It has a 40 wear rating, meaning it's very soft compound. Street tires are about 10x that, are harder, and last much longer.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tire...sidewall=Blackwall&partnum=535ZR8A7&tab=Sizes

Slicks are not legal for driving on public roads because they have no tread. They also don't work very well in rain, etc.

I'm not debating that one can't put slicks on at a race track. Of course one can. I'm talking about trackable street tires. Again, apples and oranges.

I raced at ReFuel last weekend and can confirm that R compound tires and brake pads made a huge difference in performance on the Model 3.

 

[JeffC]

Technically Hoosier A7s are street legal. Those little notches are "tread". Haha. But yeah the manufacturer doesn't recommend it.
My predictions:
1. All Model 3s have silicon carbide inverters. More efficient and cheaper than having a bigger battery and more cooling.
2. The Performance version will not have staggered wheels. The Tesla specific P4S tires are only available in one size. Staggered wheels are dumb on an AWD car anyway.
3. The rear motor of the Performance version will produce only marginally more power than an LR. 0-60 of 3.5s vs. 5.1s only requires 50% more power, that power will come from the front motor.
4. The spoiler will have no measurable effect on performance
5. The Tesla specific P4S will have lower rolling resistance and lower traction as indicated by their higher treadwear rating.
6. I'm not sure about suspension. All Model S's have the same suspension so I'm leaning towards the Model 3 being the same.
7. I think the bigger brakes will probably be specific to the Performance Upgrade package but I hope they're included without it because that's what I've ordered.
8. The top speed difference is just software if it even exists at all.
9. The next performance Model 3 will be (more) awesome! This one seems like a way to pump up Q3 profits.

Agree with most of your speculations, except I speculate that the spoiler may make the car slightly more stable at top speed, and I do expect staggered wheels. Also expect P to have stiffer springs, dampers and maybe anti-roll bars given the lower image in the configurator. We'll find out eventually!

P.S. LOL on the Hoosier slick "treads". More like dimples, and small ones at that. Realistically not practical for the street, at least where rain is possible. Also they would wear out pretty quickly in commuting. Would I drive them to the supermarket a few times? Probably. (Slicks also pick up debris like a vacuum. Ok on a relatively clean track; less good on the street.)

 

[Shizzrock]

275 mm rear tires would not physically fit on 8.5 inch wheels.

Also if you use the Tire Rack wheel configurator for staggered wheels, it shows wider rear wheels.

Your screenshot showed two staggered "OE" configurations from tirerack, one for 19" and one for 20". My point was since the 19" wheels aren't staggered but tirerack shows a staggered config for them, it's no confirmation that the 20" wheels would be staggered because the screenshot is already contradictory to the actual equipment.

 

[JeffC]

I raced at ReFuel last weekend and can confirm that R compound tires and brake pads made a huge difference in performance on the Model 3.

Congrats on getting your Model 3 on the track. Please start a thread about it. Would love to hear how it was.

Wow are those Avante Garde 590s? I was just looking at getting those wheels. Edit, I see they're Enkeis. Thanks for the pics!

 

[JeffC]

Your screenshot showed two staggered "OE" configurations from tirerack, one for 19" and one for 20". My point was since the 19" wheels aren't staggered but tirerack shows a staggered config for them, it's no confirmation that the 20" wheels would be staggered because the screenshot is already contradictory to the actual equipment.

Good point. I guess we'll need to see whether there's a stagger or not on the factory 20s when they come out.

 

[Shizzrock]

Technically Hoosier A7s are street legal. Those little notches are "tread". Haha. But yeah the manufacturer doesn't recommend it.
My predictions:
1. All Model 3s have silicon carbide inverters. More efficient and cheaper than having a bigger battery and more cooling.
2. The Performance version will not have staggered wheels. The Tesla specific P4S tires are only available in one size. Staggered wheels are dumb on an AWD car anyway.
3. The rear motor of the Performance version will produce only marginally more power than an LR. 0-60 of 3.5s vs. 5.1s only requires 50% more power, that power will come from the front motor.
4. The spoiler will have no measurable effect on performance
5. The Tesla specific P4S will have lower rolling resistance and lower traction as indicated by their higher treadwear rating.
6. I'm not sure about suspension. All Model S's have the same suspension so I'm leaning towards the Model 3 being the same.
7. I think the bigger brakes will probably be specific to the Performance Upgrade package but I hope they're included without it because that's what I've ordered.
8. The top speed difference is just software if it even exists at all.
9. The next performance Model 3 will be (more) awesome! This one seems like a way to pump up Q3 profits.

I think you're right on every point, but I really hope you're not!

 

[FlatSix911]

Congrats on getting your Model 3 on the track. Please start a thread about it. Would love to hear how it was.

Wow are those Avante Garde 590s? I was just looking at getting those wheels. Edit, I see they're Enkeis.

Thanks but not my Model 3 ... I tracked my Model S and will post more in another thread.

 

[brianman]

All Model S's have the same suspension

Incorrect.

The Model S originally had a choice of air suspension or coils. The racer types seemed to talk about coils as non-negotiably "better" for track use; but they also seemed to consistently bad talk the S for track use anyway so.. whatever. Also there was the + suspension that came out later. So 3 official suspension offerings.

Furthermore, they iterated and had improved suspension parts even for non-+ newer vehicles. Tesla quoted (IIRC) $3,500 to upgrade the suspension on my P85 Sig when I pressed for information based on some TMC posts a bit back. So far at least, I have chosen not to spend that money.

So there you go 4 != 1.

I suspect there's actually more than 4 given that the S is in its 7th year but I haven't been paying close attention.

 

[JeffC]

Correct. The P85+ was a coil spring suspension with stiffer dampers and stiffer anti-roll bars.

Model 3 is a better track car than Model S due to being significantly lighter and more efficient.

 

[JeffC]

+Knightshade Cars don't settle on their springs and dampers until they've been jostled around a bit. That's probably why the Performance Model 3 is riding so high on the assembly line. On the road, it probably rides lower than the non P versions.

It's also possible that picture was taken at the battery installation station, before the battery was installed.

 

[mongo]

Incorrect.

The Model S originally had a choice of air suspension or coils. The racer types seemed to talk about coils as non-negotiably "better" for track use; but they also seemed to consistently bad talk the S for track use anyway so.. whatever. Also there was the + suspension that came out later. So 3 official suspension offerings.

Furthermore, they iterated and had improved suspension parts even for non-+ newer vehicles. Tesla quoted (IIRC) $3,500 to upgrade the suspension on my P85 Sig when I pressed for information based on some TMC posts a bit back. So far at least, I have chosen not to spend that money.

So there you go 4 != 1.

I suspect there's actually more than 4 given that the S is in its 7th year but I haven't been paying close attention.

You are both stating true-isms.
@Daniel in SD is correct in that the Model S only has one type of suspension today (SAS) along with only coming in dual motor. It did have the variants you mentioned that were discontinued.
Given Tesla converged to one type, it is not unreasonable to think they would do so again.

However, since 3 does not yet have SAS, I'm thinking there may be differences between both RWD and AWD (due to weight), along with AWD and P (due to power and overall performance, esp if the spoiler does more than counter lift)

 

[Knightshade]

+Knightshade Cars don't settle on their springs and dampers until they've been jostled around a bit. That's probably why the Performance Model 3 is riding so high on the assembly line. On the road, it probably rides lower than the non P versions.

The idea springs settle by multiple inches, which is what they'd need to do for the springs to be the reason that car is clearly sitting much higher than a non-P car, is hilariously incorrect.

Common myth though.


How Much Will Springs Settle? - EATON Detroit Spring

Correctly matched springs will settle no more than 1/4 to 1/2 Inch once the car is finished and driven. Any more than that means something is not right.

Yes, the drive units include an inverter. The inverter is a module. It's possible the Performance drive units get a different inverter. "Impossible" seems a bit strong given that.

Not really.

Unless you are suggesting they bin test all the drive units... then take apart the "best" ones to swap out the inverters on only those after they had already been fully assembled- which seems insanely inefficient.

Because they can't have swapped them before testing- otherwise it wouldn't be a useful test.

See also the other points Mongo made about the impracticality of having different inverters for P only.

We know current Model S and X have air springs. When Model S used coil springs, there was a "+" option that had stiffer dampers and stiffer anti-roll bars. Fact. P85 vs P85+ | Tesla

Yes... a path that Tesla abandoned quickly and hasn't offered in years (and only offered on a single RWD car)

So to suggest they've suddenly gone back to that when Tesla themselves haven't said word one in that regard seems...optimistic.

The T-sportline page about Model 3 wheels says the 20s in the Tesla Shop are different from the prototype. It does not claim that the ones in the Shop are the production wheels.

Nor does it claim the production wheels are staggered. Which is what you claimed, and then gave their link as evidence...despite it not appears to actually be evidence of that at all.

Instead it makes clear the staggered wheels there were simply [alpha prototype[/B] wheels observed a couple years ago in original model 3 testing.

I came here to share my interest in and appreciation of Teslas. Please don't beat me up for providing the best analysis I can, given limited information, unless you're trying to shut me up. If the latter, you have succeed. Congrats.

It would be nice if people could be more civil online. Perhaps using real names would help.

I'm sorry if you feel offended by people pointing out the things you were claiming had "evidence" behind them don't.

There's nothing wrong with guessing and speculating... it can be fun....

The problem is when people claim what they're saying is more than that... it's how unfortunate rumors and myths get started (like the idea non-defective car springs settle many multiple inches for example... see also the P threads where people seem to think big brake rotors are useful in normal street driving- another long enduring myth that just ain't so)


This problem is somewhat worse with Teslas, since they are so incredibly stingy with "real" info about their products.

Anyway, wasn't trying to "beat you up" at all- I was trying to clarify what you were using to support your claims about the P/non-P... it's entirely possible I totally missed real evidence about one or more of those claims- so I asked... but when I saw what you were claimed as evidence really wasn't I though that too should be pointed out lest others put more weight on your speculation than is warranted- especially since many folks are making decisions on spending 11 or 16 thousand bucks on these choices.

(which makes Teslas lack of info extra crappy for such people- myself included.... I'm not willing to spend that much more on simply "hoping" they made a bunch of suspension and other improvements they've for some reason totally decided not to tell anybody about)

 

[Petra]

Correct. The P85+ was a coil spring suspension with stiffer dampers and stiffer anti-roll bars.

The P85+ was equipped with air suspension, @JeffC... I can't recall if it was even possible to order the package without air suspension.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

I read about 5 pages in and didn’t see the confirmation, but just in case it hasn’t been said really clearly, the “Performance” upgrade on the Performance Model 3 (which includes the 20” wheels) does definitely include ‘performance’ caliper brakes.

The confusion is definitely that there is a performance model and performance upgrade on the performance model. Like a performance X2...

 

[brianman]

You are both stating true-isms.

Incorrect.

Not to get too deep in the semantic weeds, but you're saying something different from Daniel. His phrasing includes all Model S ever sold to customers (and arguably ever produced), while your phrasing is crafted to technically be ok to include only current production. Very different.