Model 3 "Performance Brake Calipers" just red or different altogether?

[brianman]

I read about 5 pages in and didn’t see the confirmation, but just in case it hasn’t been said really clearly, the “Performance” upgrade on the Performance Model 3 (which includes the 20” wheels) does definitely include ‘performance’ caliper brakes.

The confusion is definitely that there is a performance model and performance upgrade on the performance model. Like a performance X2...

(Quoted for context, not reply/critique.)

And that it's not strictly stated whether the non-upgrade Performance ("Performance X1") does not include "'performance' caliper brakes". I wish Tesla wouldn't be so, um, "cute" (?) about their phrasing. Having fun with words like Insane and Ludicrous (and Plaid) is ok, but I really wish they would get clearer in specs that directly affect buying decisions (like WTF exactly is in the "X2" upgrade that isn't in the "X1" offering).

 

[Wooloomooloo]

(Quoted for context, not reply/critique.)

And that it's not strictly stated whether the non-upgrade Performance ("Performance X1") does not include "'performance' caliper brakes". I wish Tesla wouldn't be so, um, "cute" (?) about their phrasing. Having fun with words like Insane and Ludicrous (and Plaid) is ok, but I really wish they would get clearer in specs that directly affect buying decisions (like WTF exactly is in the "X2" upgrade that isn't in the "X1" offering).

It is clear when configuring, although not in the summary.

When configuring the PU specifically says you get: 20” wheels, spoiler, increased top speed (155mph) and performance caliper brakes and Aluminum pedals.

The confusing part is the 155mph is also stated when you simply select the PM3 although it says “up to” and also states that additional premium features are available.

 

[brianman]

It is clear when configuring, although not in the summary.

When configuring the PU specifically says you get: 20” wheels, spoiler, increased top speed (155mph) and performance caliper brakes and Aluminum pedals.

The confusing part is the 155mph is also stated when you simply select the PM3 although it says “up to” and also states that additional premium features are available.

It's not clear to me (and I think others) on TMC whether the absence of "performance caliper brakes" (on the "X1" description) implies that the brakes are functionally "non-performance" (utility and heating characteristics) or just stylistically (colored red). Given history with Model S and X, it's reasonable to assume it means the latter.

 

[mongo]

Incorrect.

Not to get too deep in the semantic weeds, but you're saying something different from Daniel. His phrasing includes all Model S ever sold to customers (and arguably ever produced), while your phrasing is crafted to technically be ok to include only current production. Very different.

Are you basing that judgement off of additional posts besides:

My predictions:
...snip...
I'm not sure about suspension. All Model S's have the same suspension so I'm leaning towards the Model 3 being the same.

Predictions is future tense, and current S production has only one type of suspension so the possibility exists that he is referring to current production with his statement.
Since we are in the weeds, one could also say the statement implies that there is only one physical instantiation of S suspension shared among all cars. That, of course, is preposterous and so one rules it out from the possible interpretations.

Only Daniel can say what his intent was:
Hey @Daniel in SD . Were you referring to current S production, or were you unaware of the previous versions?

 

[Wooloomooloo]

It's not clear to me (and I think others) on TMC whether the absence of "performance caliper brakes" (on the "X1" description) implies that the brakes are functionally "non-performance" (utility and heating characteristics) or just stylistically (colored red). Given history with Model S and X, it's reasonable to assume it means the latter.

I don’t know of any car manufacturer that explicitly states when upgrade options are not available if you don’t select them as upgrade options. The fact they’re stated as being included as part of an upgrade should make it clear you don’t get them if you don’t select the upgrade.

That level of required pedantry is in the realm of “warning, may contain nuts” on a packet of peanuts.

Apologies if I’m missing the point, but it honestly seems obvious.

 

[brianman]

Are you basing that judgement off ...

You're trying way too hard to find something not there. I choose to use the obvious definition of "all" not some ridiculous definition constructed by presidents.

Reread the my post and the portion I quoted in that post:
Model 3 "Performance Brake Calipers" just red or different altogether?

 

[Daniel in SD]

Only Daniel can say what his intent was:
Hey @Daniel in SD . Were you referring to current S production, or were you unaware of the previous versions?

I was referring to current production. I know about the legendary P85+ and the no longer available coil spring option.
Obviously the front suspension will be slightly different so it can clear the driveshafts and handle the extra weight.

 

[Daniel in SD]

That level of required pedantry is in the realm of “warning, may contain nuts” on a packet of peanuts.

Peanuts are not nuts

 

[brianman]

I don’t know of any car manufacturer that explicitly states when upgrade options are not available if you don’t select them as upgrade options. The fact they’re stated as being included as part of an upgrade should make it clear you don’t get them if you don’t select the upgrade.

That level of required pedantry is in the realm of “warning, may contain nuts” on a packet of peanuts.

Apologies if I’m missing the point, but it honestly seems obvious.

In reading the tea leaves, there are many things that seem "obvious" to a Tesla customer. After vehicle delivery, it seems many of the "obvious" things are apparently "differently obvious" to the customer than to Tesla. As a newcomer (welcome!), you'll discover there are many threads on TMC that belabor the difference in these interpretations of reality and have developed scars among some of the company's most vocal cheerleaders. Again, I wish Tesla would be more crisp in their public facing information.

As a very simple example, I don't bring up the word horsepower when talking to any non-owner about Tesla Model S (or X) ever anymore. If asked, I will give the least and most specific information that I can. This is directly because of (IMO) mistakes in the company's history in product marketing. It saddens me.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

Peanuts are not nuts

I know... it was kind of my point. Tell that to someone who has a true nut allergy... and then have them explain how legume proteins are almost never the same as nut proteins, except when it’s a peanut, which isn’t a nut.

I really hope people who ordered the base Performance model get something extra and cool on the brake side, but I think the ‘confusion’ is more out of hope than logic.

 

[lairdb]

I don’t know of any car manufacturer that explicitly states when upgrade options are not available if you don’t select them as upgrade options. The fact they’re stated as being included as part of an upgrade should make it clear you don’t get them if you don’t select the upgrade.
[...]
Apologies if I’m missing the point, but it honestly seems obvious.

I believe you're missing the point. Yes, you don't get them if you don't select the option. The question is whether "them" is
- brakes which have increased functional performance and are painted red, or
- brakes which have identical performance and are painted a color named "performance red"

 

[Garlan Garner]

I believe you're missing the point. Yes, you don't get them if you don't select the option. The question is whether "them" is
- brakes which have increased functional performance and are painted red, or
- brakes which have identical performance and are painted a color named "performance red"

Ryan McCaffrey‏Verified account @DMC_Ryan May 26
Replying to @elonmusk
Elon, might you be willing to answer 1 more thing about the brakes on Performance Model 3? I'm still hoping to get those red brake calipers you kindly said "maybe" to, but I'm also curious if the brakes are larger than on RWD. With all that power it'd seem like they need to be

Elon Musk‏Verified account @elonmuskMay 26
Replying to @DMC_Ryan
Yes, Model 3 Performance will have red calipers & sport level brakes






DavinMMA‏ @davinalexmma May 26
Ryan... pls ask him... AWD = will it have sport level brakes? (Minus red calipers).

Elon Musk‏Verified account @elonmusk May 26
No, but dual motors mean increased regen braking & will ride tire traction limit. You won’t notice sport brakes unless you’re on a racetrack & have the sticky 20” tires

 

[Wooloomooloo]

In reading the tea leaves, there are many things that seem "obvious" to a Tesla customer. After vehicle delivery, it seems many of the "obvious" things are apparently "differently obvious" to the customer than to Tesla. As a newcomer (welcome!), you'll discover there are many threads on TMC that belabor the difference in these interpretations of reality and have developed scars among some of the company's most vocal cheerleaders. Again, I wish Tesla would be more crisp in their public facing information.

As a very simple example, I don't bring up the word horsepower when talking to any non-owner about Tesla Model S (or X) ever anymore. If asked, I will give the least and most specific information that I can. This is directly because of (IMO) mistakes in the company's history in product marketing. It saddens me.

Fair enough, I understand and thanks for the welcome. I may very well be one of those people to find out the hard way, but I suspect (and hope) that Tesla isn’t in the business of disappointing its actual customers in the same way it might disappoint its potential customers.

The HP comment is interesting. People get obsessed with figures and metrics, because they think they give them a barometer to compare one thing with another. They do it with computers (more ghz=more speed), cameras (more pixels=better image) shoes (more material=better shoe) and of course cars - and those assumptions are usually wrong, and what’s worse, the marketeers use them to position products inappropriately in the market.

What really matters is the performance on the ground and if the PM3 can get to 60mph is less than 3.5 seconds, it’s irrelevant whether the WHP is 250, 350, 450 or 4500hp (that latter one would have a perculiar torque curve though...)

 

[brianman]

...
What really matters is the performance on the ground and if the PM3 can get to 60mph is less than 3.5 seconds, it’s irrelevant whether the WHP is 250, 350, 450 or 4500hp (that latter one would have a perculiar torque curve though...)

And whether it can do it repeatedly, and under non-mythical conditions, etc. Anyway, I digress. If you're interested, there are a lot of threads on TMC that capture some of the history. Make sure you have a stable stomach if you wade through, but if you do there is a lot of interesting technical details and research around.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

I believe you're missing the point. Yes, you don't get them if you don't select the option. The question is whether "them" is
- brakes which have increased functional performance and are painted red, or
- brakes which have identical performance and are painted a color named "performance red"

It says, clear as day, the ‘upgrade’ includes ‘Performance Calipers’ not ‘red calipers’. Now I agree it’s down to interpretation, but my interpretation is that this means they’re in some way upgraded as to affect performance, not just aesthetics.

I could be wrong of course...

 

[Garlan Garner]

It says, …......

What is "it"?

 

[mongo]

as a point of reference, those tweets were from a time before the extra Performance enhancement package was announced...

 

[brianman]

It says, clear as day, the ‘upgrade’ includes ‘Performance Calipers’ not ‘red calipers’. Now I agree it’s down to interpretation, but my interpretation is that this means they’re in some way upgraded as to affect performance, not just aesthetics.

And now I think you understand our concern. I see both interpretations and I hope your is right but worry that it's wrong (because we're buying the 'X2').

 

[Wooloomooloo]

What is "it"?

When you configure the options for the Performance version of the car. It (the configuration) adds a further ‘performance package’ optioned which lists (see image)

 

[Garlan Garner]

When you configure the options for the Performance version of the car. It (the configuration) adds a further ‘performance package’ optioned which lists (see image)

I was told by Tesla reps in Fremont that The 20"wheels accompany red brakes and larger rotors and calipers and sports suspension. The Performance upgrade of the Performance version is accompanied by the 20 inch wheel.