Model 3 "Performance Brake Calipers" just red or different altogether?

[Shizzrock]

as a point of reference, those tweets were from a time before the extra Performance enhancement package was announced...

I think this is the whole problem. So the question becomes what did Tesla take out of the P model to get it to that lower price point, and what does the 5K upgrade put back in.

 

[brianman]

I was told by Tesla reps in Fremont that The 20"wheels accompany red brakes and larger rotors and calipers and sports suspension. The Performance upgrade of the Performance version is accompanied by the 20 inch wheel.

I'm not asking you to restart the conversation, just reference your memories...

For those interested in getting a set of non-summer (i.e. all season or winter) tires + wheels, does your interpretation of your memory suggest 20" wheels are the only viable option on a "Perf with upgrade" 3 or is there a 19" or 18" option that "fits"?

 

[Garlan Garner]

I'm not asking you to restart the conversation, just reference your memories...

For those interested in getting a set of non-summer (i.e. all season or winter) tires + wheels, does your interpretation of your memory suggest 20" wheels are the only viable option on a "Perf with upgrade" 3 or is there a 19" or 18" option that "fits"?

Viable option? That's subjective I suppose.

I was told that performance upgrade to the Performance version ONLY has 20" rims available.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

Viable option? That's subjective I suppose.

I was told that performance upgrade to the Performance version ONLY has 20" rims available.

That’s correct. The very definition of the PU to the PM3 is the 20” rims.

 

[lairdb]

It says, clear as day, the ‘upgrade’ includes ‘Performance Calipers’ not ‘red calipers’. Now I agree it’s down to interpretation, but my interpretation is that this means they’re in some way upgraded as to affect performance, not just aesthetics.

It's worth noting that "performance calipers" is not the language that appeared originally. IIRC, there have been at least three versions: no mention of brake improvements at all, a version that said "Performance red calipers" (which is what set off a lot of the discussion about cosmetics vs. function) and the current "Performance Calipers". AFAIK none of the language anywhere has talked about the (arguably) most functionally important component: disc size.

For added ambiguity, enjoy Elon's tweet: "Yes, Model 3 Performance will have red calipers & sport level brakes".

 

[thewishmaster]

This tweet was probably true before the additional Performance Upgrade was created as a standalone package. I hope this ambiguity is cleared up soon as I don't think we can get any further on the discussion without either a formal clarification from Tesla, someone taking delivery, or someone finding an abandoned Performance mule and measuring the brakes with a ruler

 

[CdgaBill]

It's worth noting that "performance calipers" is not the language that appeared originally. IIRC, there have been at least three versions: no mention of brake improvements at all, a version that said "Performance red calipers" (which is what set off a lot of the discussion about cosmetics vs. function) and the current "Performance Calipers". AFAIK none of the language anywhere has talked about the (arguably) most functionally important component: disc size.

For added ambiguity, enjoy Elon's tweet: "Yes, Model 3 Performance will have red calipers & sport level brakes".

I agree with your points, for me, it's always been the oddly-specific word "calipers" that had made me question what this really included - particularly with some of the X/S history. Certainly the performance calipers only come with the 20" package, but whether it's just the calipers that are different (truly or paint), or the entire package has been the mystery. If the wording said "performance brake package", the questions would shift to - what's in the package, but not where it is and isn't included.

That said, as I've been watching things evolve, I'm also not on the side of - what kind of idiots are these that can't even tell us what's in what package and have a consistent story. Given how things have gone thus far - I'm not so sure they've actually decided. I'm also now sure how that decisioning works vs. the tweets - partly just because, if there was a really plan - and you bought the "original" performance package with the 18" tires which some now postulate wouldn't fit on the included brakes, what would have happened there (prior to breaking out the package as they do now).

So I'm more of a mind to resign myself to a bit of the firm order configuration really being - market testing of demand. Of course they can't say that as they're taking your money in a non-refundable fashion, but an avenue available when demand exceeds supply. I think the 78K original "all-included" package was based on their projected demand curve of where to maximize profits. They since adjusted it based on the data they saw, with an expectation the lower price would attract enough additional buyers that the net profits actually increase. So it wouldn't surprise me if the wording is purposefully nebulous. And depending on how many people order which package, and what impact that has on the economics related to the cost of production variation, they'll decide in the coming weeks what's actually included. To me, it was odd from the start that the 5k package was the only place to get the items Ryan had asked about - for all I know, Elon's curious about whether his giving in to both of his asks is truly reflective of items people are willing to pony up cash for...

 

[Garlan Garner]

I agree with your points, for me, it's always been the oddly-specific word "calipers" that had made me question what this really included - particularly with some of the X/S history. Certainly the performance calipers only come with the 20" package, but whether it's just the calipers that are different (truly or paint), or the entire package has been the mystery. If the wording said "performance brake package", the questions would shift to - what's in the package, but not where it is and isn't included.

That said, as I've been watching things evolve, I'm also not on the side of - what kind of idiots are these that can't even tell us what's in what package and have a consistent story. Given how things have gone thus far - I'm not so sure they've actually decided. I'm also now sure how that decisioning works vs. the tweets - partly just because, if there was a really plan - and you bought the "original" performance package with the 18" tires which some now postulate wouldn't fit on the included brakes, what would have happened there (prior to breaking out the package as they do now).

So I'm more of a mind to resign myself to a bit of the firm order configuration really being - market testing of demand. Of course they can't say that as they're taking your money in a non-refundable fashion, but an avenue available when demand exceeds supply. I think the 78K original "all-included" package was based on their projected demand curve of where to maximize profits. They since adjusted it based on the data they saw, with an expectation the lower price would attract enough additional buyers that the net profits actually increase. So it wouldn't surprise me if the wording is purposefully nebulous. And depending on how many people order which package, and what impact that has on the economics related to the cost of production variation, they'll decide in the coming weeks what's actually included. To me, it was odd from the start that the 5k package was the only place to get the items Ryan had asked about - for all I know, Elon's curious about whether his giving in to both of his asks is truly reflective of items people are willing to pony up cash for...

Now the $76k version is now $70k. The $76k version included these calipers.

If one was willing to spend $76K to get the performance with red calipers and such..why not spend $70K to get the same thing?

 

[CdgaBill]

Now the $76k version is now $70k. The $76k version included these calipers.

If one was willing to spend $76K to get the performance with red calipers and such..why not spend $70K to get the same thing?

That's a bit of my point. The brakes weren't in the original 76K even, but were added later via tweet.

I'm guessing when they looked at price sensitivity, they figured anyone who had bought the original P version, would stick with the fully loaded package. Sure, they might lose a few folks here and there who really didn't want the 20" wheels, but were more - getting them to sell because they were included and there was no discount for getting the 18's before. Or ones who wouldn't find it worth it to pay for white, but got it just because it was "included" before and added to a bit of that exclustivity. Maybe even the same for paint colors. But by and large, I'd expect most original "P" orders - stayed the same config just at a lower price.

But they didn't just drop the price 6K and say - let's see how many more people buy it now. Nor did they make everything an option, so as much as I'd love to say - give me P with the brakes and 19" wheels which aren't even a "P" choice, but keep the spoiler kind of thing, no dice there. So the packages are still that - and I'd believe designed to include some things they expect people want with others they don't - continued attempt at maximizing profits while minimizing variance.

But if the analysis showed an arugment that said, the best price to maximize profit was 65K and another said 70K, does this allow them to test both a bit? Did they say, instead of dropping the price 6K, we really should drop it 10K, but that will hurt our profitability thanks to the freebies you've thrown in, Elon? Let's throw those in with the "sticky" tires you tweeted about. Have they even finalized the brakes? I mean, we've seen that production car in a tweet from Elon under the tent, but it's not like anybody has one.

I'm as happy to speculate and guess as the next guy while I kill time waiting for my car. I'm just saying that I'm less in the camp of "someone" at Tesla knows exactly what that configurator means and they just don't explain it well/consistently internally or externally, and more in the camp of - it's nebulously written because they haven't really finalized it yet, but want to know what they need to make when they do sort it out.

 

[MP3Mike]

That's a bit of my point. The brakes weren't in the original 76K even, but were added later via tweet.

No, the brakes were included in the original P package, they just weren't red. The red was added later via a tweet.

 

[CdgaBill]

No, the brakes were included in the original P package, they just weren't red. The red was added later via a tweet.

They were? Maybe my recollection was off on that one. I thought on the 5/20 announcement, there was no mention of brakes at all, much to chagrin of folks here. Then Ryan said, can't we get red calipera like all the other Ps, and got the no, then yes answer. Then later said, are they just painted red or different, and got the answer of different "sportier" brakes. So if there was ever a plan of bigger brakes without red calipers originally (like on the test mule potential thread), must have missed that part of the timeline.

 

[Daniel in SD]

They were? Maybe my recollection was off on that one. I thought on the 5/20 announcement, there was no mention of brakes at all, much to chagrin of folks here. Then Ryan said, can't we get red calipera like all the other Ps, and got the no, then yes answer. Then later said, are they just painted red or different, and got the answer of different "sportier" brakes. So if there was ever a plan of bigger brakes without red calipers originally (like on the test mule potential thread), must have missed that part of the timeline.

That is my recollection too. Elon said that having red calipers would be too much complication which makes no sense unless the calipers were originally planned to be the same as the regular version. They can order calipers of whatever color they want from Brembo so it's really no additional complexity if you're already ordering different calipers.

 

[TheLocNar]

Calipers and rotors are bigger (my feeling). And when places like Tire Rack, Get Your Wheels, Discount Tire etc. get their hands on the P3D, I can guarantee you they’ll find 19” wheels that will fit. Possibly even some 18”.

 

[lairdb]

That is my recollection too. Elon said that having red calipers would be too much complication which makes no sense unless the calipers were originally planned to be the same as the regular version. They can order calipers of whatever color they want from Brembo so it's really no additional complexity if you're already ordering different calipers.

You underestimate the complexity of adding manufacturing line options. It's not just having red calipers: it's having enough of each flavor, having two piles, having clear method for tracking and communicating which goes on which car, having a QC process to check that it happened...

 

[TheLocNar]

That is my recollection too. Elon said that having red calipers would be too much complication which makes no sense unless the calipers were originally planned to be the same as the regular version. They can order calipers of whatever color they want from Brembo so it's really no additional complexity if you're already ordering different calipers.

I’m thinking they are the same calipers from the S Performance.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

You underestimate the complexity of adding manufacturing line options. It's not just having red calipers: it's having enough of each flavor, having two piles, having clear method for tracking and communicating which goes on which car, having a QC process to check that it happened...

Well that's why the spoiler and aluminum pedals are fitted at the showroom - to minimize factory complexity.

 

[Daniel in SD]

You underestimate the complexity of adding manufacturing line options. It's not just having red calipers: it's having enough of each flavor, having two piles, having clear method for tracking and communicating which goes on which car, having a QC process to check that it happened...

I was trying to say if you're going to have a set of performance calipers it makes no difference whether they're red or not. That's why I think Elon's initial tweet implied that the Performance would have the same caliper as the LR Model 3.

 

[Garlan Garner]

That's a bit of my point. The brakes weren't in the original 76K even, but were added later via tweet.

I'm guessing when they looked at price sensitivity, they figured anyone who had bought the original P version, would stick with the fully loaded package. Sure, they might lose a few folks here and there who really didn't want the 20" wheels, but were more - getting them to sell because they were included and there was no discount for getting the 18's before. Or ones who wouldn't find it worth it to pay for white, but got it just because it was "included" before and added to a bit of that exclustivity. Maybe even the same for paint colors. But by and large, I'd expect most original "P" orders - stayed the same config just at a lower price.

But they didn't just drop the price 6K and say - let's see how many more people buy it now. Nor did they make everything an option, so as much as I'd love to say - give me P with the brakes and 19" wheels which aren't even a "P" choice, but keep the spoiler kind of thing, no dice there. So the packages are still that - and I'd believe designed to include some things they expect people want with others they don't - continued attempt at maximizing profits while minimizing variance.

But if the analysis showed an arugment that said, the best price to maximize profit was 65K and another said 70K, does this allow them to test both a bit? Did they say, instead of dropping the price 6K, we really should drop it 10K, but that will hurt our profitability thanks to the freebies you've thrown in, Elon? Let's throw those in with the "sticky" tires you tweeted about. Have they even finalized the brakes? I mean, we've seen that production car in a tweet from Elon under the tent, but it's not like anybody has one.

I'm as happy to speculate and guess as the next guy while I kill time waiting for my car. I'm just saying that I'm less in the camp of "someone" at Tesla knows exactly what that configurator means and they just don't explain it well/consistently internally or externally, and more in the camp of - it's nebulously written because they haven't really finalized it yet, but want to know what they need to make when they do sort it out.

Yes...Red brake calipers were included in the $76k version. This is Elons Tweet from months ago.

Elon Musk on Twitter

ALSO...

I am "all buttons checked". I was sitting at $86k.

Now I'm "all buttons checked sitting at $80k.

 

[Garlan Garner]

I was trying to say if you're going to have a set of performance calipers it makes no difference whether they're red or not. That's why I think Elon's initial tweet implied that the Performance would have the same caliper as the LR Model 3.

Oh yes it does matter. Red is more beautiful.

Nothing says "stop" …..more than red.

 

[Garlan Garner]

On a serious note....It sounds like Tesla will only make the larger brake calipers ( accompanied by the larger rotors and sports suspension parts) in red. The smaller brake calipers in grey.

Performance upgraded Performance package = Red
All others = Grey.

That's pretty simple to me.