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Model 3 Performance: time for Ludicrous?

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
11,879
16,344
NC
This thread I only commented on the M3P, the other thread (2022 model 3 releasing) was my plaid comment.

Nope.

Here's your post asking about plaid in THIS thread-
I do not have twitter or any social media, anyone care to probe Elon regarding plaid model 3.....



I would assume an accel boost (maybe 0.3 secons 0-60 boost) is possible on current software and enlarged pack to break below the 3.0 threshold rating.

There's no room, physically, for a larger pack using the existing 2170 cells though.[/QUOTE]
 

Pyre

Member
Apr 10, 2021
280
120
Syracuse, NY
Nope.

Here's your post asking about plaid in THIS thread-






There's no room, physically, for a larger pack using the existing 2170 cells though.
[/QUOTE]
There was a jump of like 5kWh from 2018 to 2019 for model 3 correct? That only netted a 0.1 delta? I believe they nerf it for a certain factor of safety which seems like there is headroom left.

To me the model 3 plaid or model 3 ludicrous is all the same regarding the M3P.


So if i say model 3 ludicrous youre thinking that may change or be offered on a 2170 cell?
 

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
11,879
16,344
NC
There was a jump of like 5kWh from 2018 to 2019 for model 3 correct?

No?


The 2021 model has 5% more energy dense cells storage-wise. Same number of cells- and (AFAIK) no indication those cells are capably of any higher discharge rate (which is what you'd care about for peak power) than the older ones.

Further there's no info on if the drive units can safely handle more power either.... (the fact the LR RWD rear motor output was similar to the P3 rear output suggests it's already at safety limits)



To me the model 3 plaid or model 3 ludicrous is all the same regarding the M3P.

They're not though.

Plaid specifically refers to a 3-motor design.



So if i say model 3 ludicrous youre thinking that may change or be offered on a 2170 cell?

No.

They've not substantially changed the HW in the 3P since launch, and never offered ludicrous, so there continues to be no reason to expect that to change.

A small increase in cell density due to minor chemistry improvements doesn't mean it can magically discharge a bunch more energy faster (or that the motors could safely use it if it did)- just that range might improve a bit.

If you wanna wait another year in hopes you might get another 5% range boost that's not unreasonable- Panasonic is aiming for roughly that type of improvement year over year for the next few years on the 2170s.

But if you're wanting significantly more performance than the P3 offers anytime soon you're likely gonna need to order a Plaid S.
 

Pyre

Member
Apr 10, 2021
280
120
Syracuse, NY
No?


The 2021 model has 5% more energy dense cells storage-wise. Same number of cells- and (AFAIK) no indication those cells are capably of any higher discharge rate (which is what you'd care about for peak power) than the older ones.

The jump from 75kWh to 82kWh makes me presume more discharge volume at higher speeds is available. The fact that the LR AWD accel boost traps a similar 115 in quarter mile as a M3P makes me question what benefits there are after say 80mph with enlarged 2170 cells or differences in motor

Edit: meaning potential gains over 80mph of increased energy density
 
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sroy

Closed
Mar 13, 2021
542
224
New Jersey
I don't think that's how it works. There are 2 differences between AWD and P: software tuning and the rear motor. If the rear motor was the same as the P, you probably could get the same performances from an AWD with AB. There might be some other minor hardware revisions but the short version is that.

I mean to summarize: the M3P probably can't be software-made faster because its hardware is at its limit. The ludicrous mode is a X/S thing that makes way for plaid model which required hardware upgrade in future S models (3rd motor). I think that answers the ludicrous mode in M3 question you had.
 

Pyre

Member
Apr 10, 2021
280
120
Syracuse, NY
I don't think that's how it works. There are 2 differences between AWD and P: software tuning and the rear motor. If the rear motor was the same as the P, you probably could get the same performances from an AWD with AB. There might be some other minor hardware revisions but the short version is that.

I mean to summarize: the M3P probably can't be software-made faster because its hardware is at its limit. The ludicrous mode is a X/S thing that makes way for plaid model which required hardware upgrade in future S models (3rd motor). I think that answers the ludicrous mode in M3 question you had.
Yeah I dont really know where i was going with any of it other than hopefully someday I could spend a little more to go faster. Wishful thinking to modify the factor of safety designed into everything without voiding warranty.
 

sroy

Closed
Mar 13, 2021
542
224
New Jersey
Yeah I dont really know where i was going with any of it other than hopefully someday I could spend a little more to go faster. Wishful thinking to modify the factor of safety designed into everything without voiding warranty.
I hear ya. Maintaining teslas from a software perspective is trickier than iphones and iphones are tricky enough as it is. My gut feeling for the performance is that max perf can be extracted from the track profiles you can edit. Anything beyond is probably outside hardware capabilities I would think. Another way to look at it is if the MPP partybox can't go beyond the baseline P maxed out performance, it's most likely hardware-limited.
 

MagnusMako

Member
Jan 29, 2019
760
1,297
Austin, TX
No?


The 2021 model has 5% more energy dense cells storage-wise. Same number of cells- and (AFAIK) no indication those cells are capably of any higher discharge rate (which is what you'd care about for peak power) than the older ones.

Further there's no info on if the drive units can safely handle more power either.... (the fact the LR RWD rear motor output was similar to the P3 rear output suggests it's already at safety limits)





They're not though.

Plaid specifically refers to a 3-motor design.





No.

They've not substantially changed the HW in the 3P since launch, and never offered ludicrous, so there continues to be no reason to expect that to change.

A small increase in cell density due to minor chemistry improvements doesn't mean it can magically discharge a bunch more energy faster (or that the motors could safely use it if it did)- just that range might improve a bit.

If you wanna wait another year in hopes you might get another 5% range boost that's not unreasonable- Panasonic is aiming for roughly that type of improvement year over year for the next few years on the 2170s.

But if you're wanting significantly more performance than the P3 offers anytime soon you're likely gonna need to order a Plaid S.

Everything I've read is that the motor's are not anywhere near their limit's, at least from a mechanical perspective - they are capable of generating much more torque and are severely throttled. From my understanding the most limiting factor has been how much the batteries can discharge (I don't see why the improved chemistry battery wouldn't be able to discharge the same or more) and this is largely determined by the MOSFETS in the inverter, which is encased inside the motor and of course the energy density of the pack itself. Perhaps the fuses for the contactors too (like how inconel is needed in the S when they added Ludicrous). With the original 77.8 kWh pack on the 980 motor, I've read that there's about another 5% headroom for power. I'd imagine with the 82 kWh packs, there may be a bit more - so maybe Tesla will give small boosts to both or just the newer one's. Or they have something else planned with even more energy dense packs or the 4680 cells (I can't imagine they wouldn't use 4680's in the 3 eventually given the cost savings it's expected to bring).

As far as what Elon says about Plaid being S/X/Roadster only - I don't see that lasting forever. It would make economical sense if the 3 got the Plaid treatment as well, perhaps on the 4680 cells. I think it's been discussed ad nauseum in other threads but there's plenty of market segment for a more powerful 3. The competition from other EV's (and even ICE) is slowly making a compelling case for a faster 3 sooner rather than later.

I don't think that's how it works. There are 2 differences between AWD and P: software tuning and the rear motor. If the rear motor was the same as the P, you probably could get the same performances from an AWD with AB. There might be some other minor hardware revisions but the short version is that.

I mean to summarize: the M3P probably can't be software-made faster because its hardware is at its limit. The ludicrous mode is a X/S thing that makes way for plaid model which required hardware upgrade in future S models (3rd motor). I think that answers the ludicrous mode in M3 question you had.
For April 2019 and newer awd cars, rear motor and software are really the only difference (it comes down to MOSFET count). Prior to then both versions had the 980 rear motor and the only difference was software. Outside of Tesla, nobody really knows the actual hardware limits of the motor or inverters (other than maybe the guys at Ingenext). And Ingenext confirmed with me earlier this month they are still working on a Stage 3 for the 980 cars, so it's definitely not at it's limit, even though it may be close (at least for the 78 kWh packs).
 
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