That's impressive. And at the level of a Roadster in terms of efficiency.WOW the new S is impressively efficient. We just returned from a 1900-mile road trip from southern IL to southern MD to spend Christmas with the grandkids. We drove I-64. We have a 2022 MY Performance with 18" tires/wheels from TSportLine. Here's my stats:
Our efficiency took a hit due to Dec temps and heavy rain/fog encountered transversing the Appalachian Mountains on both legs. We've seen lower wh/mh in the 280 range on spring/summer trips. The Current Drive data was from the last SuperCharger stop in Haubstdadt IN to our home. The weather had cleared and temp was 50 degrees. We set our speed to 4+ over posted.
We are considering moving to a new S LR in the next 12 months or when we can pay off our Y.
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Model S Highway Range
- Thread starter Skotty
- Start date
Well, admittedly, I can make it to Jack Stack no problem. :-D
Zcd1
Active Member
So needing a 10-15 minute charge to complete your trip is a deal breaker??
Maybe shouldn’t be driving an EV then…
This is a "lets never improve" attitude. My opinion is based on average charger spacing around the middle of the country, and how it's always *almost* but not enough range to be able to skip one. It's annoying for any driver, and needs to be improved some to make EVs more competitive. It's common to need to go one town over and back, and obnoxious when you have to charge mid way, especially when stopping in a town that doesn't have fast chargers. Just in the last 6 months we had to take a trip up to Truman State University in Kirksville, MO, where there are no fast chargers. And that would be fine ... if the EVs had just 50 more miles of range. I believe the "sweet spot" for EV range is around 350 miles, which is very doable.
Zcd1
Active Member
It has nothing to do with "lets (sic) never improve".
It has everything to do with the compromises that are required with current EVs - and there ARE some compromises, compromises you certainly were aware of when you bought your car.
Given that there are exactly ZERO EVs currently on the market with 350 miles of real-world 75 mph highway range, it's obviously not "very doable".
BTW, if you slowed down by 5 mph, you'd likely achieve your goal, but it might cost you more time in total than a quick charging stop...
Compromises, after all...
I'm not looking for 600 miles of range. Just 350. It's doable, because it's doable. Would only require like 20-30 kWh more battery capacity. There's no reason to accept compromise on this, in my opinion. I suspect it's more an oversight, because coastal elites have charging stations that are closer together, so it's not as much of an issue.
If we want EVs to succeed, they need to compete. If we just accepted EVs for what they currently are, we would still be forced to drive around in this stupid thing: Mitsubishi i-MiEV - Consumer Reports
I'm not saying I can't get by with current offerings. I'm just saying it still sucks, and sucks doesn't sell. And it's also fixable.
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CWhite
2020 Model S LR+
Add 20-30 kWh of battery capacity sounds easy? What are you willing to give up? The frunk? Rear legroom? Plus hundreds more pounds of weight to drag around town for the times you do take a long trip. 30% more battery might only give 25% more range due to the added weight. I have a 2020 Model S and we have relatives 350 miles away and 425 miles away. Once I trusted the computer I drove a bit over 350 miles at 70mph(see below). The other sister I drive 4 hours and stop for 10 minutes to charge and a bio-break. 10 minutes is more than enough to get me another 100 miles.
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Zcd1
Active Member
If your EV sedan charged at anything like the current state-of-the-art speed (it doesn't), your views on the topic might change.
As an example, the Lucid Air can regain 100 miles of range in 7 minutes (!!!) at an appropriate charger, and 150 miles in 12 minutes.
The Hyundai Ioniq 6 needs 10 and 14 minutes to regain those same range increments.
Your P85 charges at MAYBE half that speed.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Carrying around a few hundred pounds of extra battery everywhere you go - at the expense of reduced efficiency, reduced space, increased maintenance costs, and many thousands of dollars of up-front cost, just to avoid a 10 minute charging stop on very rare occasion - is absolutely a compromise.
A pretty terrible compromise for most people.
Totally agree with you on range. I too want 400 miles in real range. Hopefully, more efficient and lighter batteries will be developed and other improvements to get to that point.
So I was searching around some more, and I know Lucid actually has some models with higher range. I looked a little closer and found these current offerings:
| Model | EPA Range Estimate | Price |
|---|---|---|
| Air Pure | 410 mi | $83,975* |
| Air Touring | 411 mi | $88,275 |
| Air Grand Touring | 516 mi | $139,075** |
Also notable is the Hummer EV which I think can do 330 highway miles. Nice, but I really don't want a Hummer.
The Air Pure and Air Touring are interesting, but I would need to find some reviews where they do real world highway range testing to see if they reach a real 350 miles on the highway at around 70 MPH (fair weather). That's my personal target.
The Air Grand Touring would clearly meet my target (I believe the guy from State of Charge got 500 miles at 70 MPH from a Lucid Air Dream, which I would guess is the same battery and drivetrain), but the price is pretty hefty.
So for Lucid, I'm not especially keen on the brand and styling, the Air Grand Touring is just too expensive, and the Air Pure and Air Touring I'm not confident have enough range to bother switching to a less desirable vehicle style and brand.
If you look at the size of these cars and range (especially the Air Grand Touring), it's clearly possible to make longer range EVs. IMO, Tesla is stupidly and stubbornly trying to hold on to their current battery sizes instead of offering something better. It's especially sad on the new Cybertruck where it's clearly big enough that they could have put a much bigger battery option and provided what could have been the first EV truck capable of long distance towing. Tesla is always pushing the limits, but not on range, where they act like legacy manufacturers. Why? Why throw away that potential competitive edge? Why not push the limits like they do everywhere else?
Tesla is already losing sales. My wife and I just bought a F-150 Lightning. Had Tesla offered a true 350-400 mile Model S, Model 3, Model Y, Model X, or Cybertruck, I'd most likely be driving (or at least ordering) one of those today instead. We wanted a truck. I actually use trucks for truck things. But I would have gone car or SUV if someone offered better range on an EV. And frankly, with the Cybertruck not offering better range, I think the F-150 Lightning is the better truck.
* I added $7,500 to price to account for whatever credit they listed on their pricing page.
** I added $21,900 to the price to account for whatever credits they listed on their pricing page.
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The P85, IIRC (I haven't taken it to a Supercharger in quite a while, so can't quite remember), currently charges at max 90 kW.
At any rate, it's not about change speed for me, really. It's more about charger spacing and still not having charging options in some locations. Tesla has done a great job building superchargers across all U.S. interstates, but average distance between chargers favors somewhat higher range cars, and having to stop in towns that don't have fast chargers is problematic, as in those cases you have to be able to make the round trip comfortably.
I'm not saying it's not doable. I've been doing it for 10 years now. I'm just saying, it's still inconvenient, and EVs will continue to struggle with the general public for as long as they remain inconvenient. If all the pansies out there insist that we shouldn't have to carry around more battery, then charging stations need to double in density. And I'm not talking on the coasts. I'm talking in the American heartland.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Yes, only the manliest of men carry big lithium! It makes total sense to me now. Reference the heartland, crying eagles, good to go!
The niche vehicles you seem to want already exist, but you just posted telling us all the reasons you don’t want to buy one.
It seems you don’t want to buy one because even you’ve come to the realization that the current compromises required to enable ultra long distance EVs aren’t worth it yet - even if you haven’t come to the realization you’ve come to the realization yet.
Zcd1
Active Member
No Lucid will do 350 miles @ 75 mph, which is what you stated as your minimum.
If you'd said 70 mph instead, I'd have already suggested the Lucid, but then you'd have to deal with the nightmare that is non-Tesla DCFC charging in the US.
But hey, good news - now that you have a Lightning, you'll probably discover for yourself soon enough:
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/...earlong-review-update-11-road-trip-nightmare/
Zcd1
Active Member
And with all due respect, part of this equation HAS to be DCFC speed - f you're not considering that, you're missing out on a critical factor.
Your Lightning's huge battery unfortunately doesn't really DCFC that quickly, so that's a double-whammy for road-trips. Your P85 is maybe even worse in that regard.
Among non-Tesla EVs, all the Lucid models, Hyundai/Kia/Genesis EVs (apart from the original Niro) and the Porsche Taycan charge extremely quickly, making them the quickest EVs overall for road-tripping, presuming you can find a functioning 350KW EA charger. (not likely, unfortunately)
Bigger batteries and chargers spaced closer together aren't really the best answer - vehicle efficiency and fast, reliable DC charging are.
In the meantime, best of luck with your hunt, Mr. Quixote....
Ford is partnering with Tesla for Supercharger access and is switching to NACS. There is supposed to be an adapter for CCS equipped Fords that should become available in 2024 or 2025. My decision to buy an F-150 was mostly due to wanting a truck, but the expected Supercharger access is welcomed.
Think I didn't investigate charging networks prior to getting one? I do have a brain. I even use it sometimes.
Zcd1
Active Member
Good news.
Now use that big brain to consider the rest of the EV road-tripping picture that’s been presented in this discussion.
I’ll wager that batteries won’t get bigger, but instead EV efficiency continue to improve incrementally and DCFC charge times will continue to drop, making your point largely moot.
BTW - the Lightning is a cool truck in many ways - I hope you’ll enjoy owning it!
Have you driven a long range Model S? You should be able to do a 350 mile trip although you might need one 10 min stop. Your 2014 P85 is probably down to 200 miles or real world range or less by now and charges half as fast or slower than newer models. I would also like a slightly bigger battery with more range but you take what you can get. Charger density will improve but no reason to but Superchargers every 50 miles in Montana which the density of ownership isn't as high as California.
I think we will have a bigger battery at some point along with more efficient cars. A real world 400 mile range car (likely over 500 EPA miles) would be amazing. Even if not needed by many. But when they get battery chemistry to get most charging stops down to 15 min or less you're probably right, the need for bigger batteries will be less.
Zcd1
Active Member
The Lucid’s big battery is already 118 KWH and it’s the most efficient EV of its size (and one of the most efficient, period) on the market. With the right charger, it can also charge incredibly quickly.
Funny thing though, even with the smaller battery, all versions of the Lucid Air have about the same range due to less weight and smaller tires on the smaller battery versions. Plus they have more rear legroom and storage space with the smaller battery, as has been alluded to previously.
Comparing a Lucid road trip experience with a P85 is like comparing a current ICEV with a 70s/80s car - there’s no comparison in comfort, performance or efficiency.
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